FinalStrigon wrote:
A 10-turn delay isn't anything, though. I can set up all of the construction lists in my systems, set my research list, and then just click through turns, only pausing when I need to pay attention to something.



By this logic, as I see it, if I decide to just focus solely on research and everyone else builds up their fleets, well, I should just get fleets out of nowhere to keep the game even. The game requires you to keep a balanced style of play this way, so you don't find yourself suddenly overwhelmed by the other players. And if you are having trouble keeping up (because everyone is the Sophons, or the Cravers, and just have so many more science points than you), try and get stuff through diplomacy, or espionage whenever we get those options.



I see no reason why the game should cater to and help the people who are, in effect, losing the game. It simply isn't fair to those who are winning. If you want a "rise from the ashes" victory, then work for it and earn it. If the game has to help you beat the other players, it's just hollow.

I understand your conserns, but i feel that it wouldent affect this too much and the feet thing, wouldent make a realist sence, even if that is an extream example, and i understand your conserns, so, perhaps if there was an ability to turn this off when setting up your game in options, then people would have the choice? but i feel my idea is justified on the level of, not only it affects the player, but it affects the AI too which should also add some level of challange to the higher skilled players who are way ahead in the lead.

I think this could work as a pre-game selectable option. You could further restrict this by say, making it a (low chance) random event after the requirements have been reached instead of instantaneous, restricting it further by say only allowing it to happen when you have open borders and trade routes with the civs that have said tech, and you could even get some interesting diplo stuff out of this with tech embargoes being a way to prevent it.

To emphasise what I do not understand:



1. Why should we approve of a mechanic that rewards passiveness?

2. If a player would benefit from the "common"-knowledge, the consensus is that the

player in question is already (censored). So why bother with it at all?



I can't state enough how unrealistic this is. In what universe is it unthinkable that certain species lag behind in development? And how can a civilization in one year leap to a certain

technology after years of assumed scientific passiveness?



How is it logical that we assume that a species discovers certain scientific benchmarks at a certain time? The same as people in the 50's assumed we would've terraformed Mars by now?



Or even worse:

Look at the "Back at the Future"-franchise: the "Future" in that movie is set in 2½ years from now.



So again: what use does it have for gameplay, realism or immersion?

Calico wrote:
well, now you managed to ignore my first post entirly while solely focusing on the second one. The First post stated the reasons for why a Tech could fall into your hands.... things like reverse engineering of wrecks or traded goods and espionage. currently we don't have a espionage system in the game, if we ever get it, then we have more options. Right now the Game is almost Beta and it's not likely we get that option until after gold.



Also, these things actually happend.... our civilisation had technology transfers through trade, war and espionage for a couple of thousands years now (some 4x games even included similar mechanics into their games, it's nothing new).



You always put yourself at risk when trying to abuse this system.... what if there is another civ at the other end of the Galaxy that has a hard time surviving, doing next to no research? Since you only get Tech for free when a majority of races has that tech (and even then with a 10 turn delay, maybe more, nothing is final here). What if that 75% or whatever isn't reached? right, nothing. I also proposed that only techs until a certain lvl should be "shared". could be as low as 30% of the tech trees, all subject to discussion.

True, I did ignore your first post, and I apologize for that.



But as you said (the part I bolded in the quote), there are other ways to get technology. We have the diplomacy option now. It's expected that espionage options will come later. And I know there were suggestions for the chances of getting tech through battle and conquest, but I don't know how well-received they were, or if the devs are tracking those ideas.



With two of the three ways tech is handed around today in the real world, why add this route? As Cadoras said, research should be an integral part of someone's strategy. If they don't have a tech that nearly everyone else has, then why help them by giving them the tech? They either need to work on their strategy, or maybe they are just doing fine. Perhaps they're maxing out the military tree, at the expense of some diplomacy tree options, following their own strategy and methods of playing the game.

Though I like the idea (it too has been used in the past), I do not think it is necessary.



A common knowledge mechanic would only make sense if all but 1 of the factions had researched that tech, and because of the slightly non-linear approach to teching, you could end up with techs in the middle of a tech tree but none of the other techs (not good). And at any count, if you are getting techs this way, you would either be researching other techs and would not really need that tech, or be so far behind in research that you've already lost.

IMHO if you don't have a common technology and you're the last (!) in the research ladder (Xth between X players), you'll get this technology with delay. Then you can get free tech as long as you are full loser )) Anyway, you can't have strong economy or army without good technologies, so it shouldn't change a lot a game balance.

I really don't like the idea. It is unrealistic, and it can prove very bad for gameplay, especially in multiplayer. In a strategygame, research is one of the most important things. If something becomes common knowledge after a time, what use to research it? And if takes 75 turns for wormholetravel to become common knowledge, why bother with it at all?



Research should be a critical issue in one's strategy. If you neglect your research, you'll be punished. If you spearhead a particular research, it should give you an edge.



If this feature was meant to make it easier on newbie-players, than it has no use at all. Newbie-players should start at a newbie-level with only 1 or 2 AI's ingame. That's the way to learn. The "common knowledge" feature adds nothing to the learningcurve. It is precisely the harsh consequences of bad research that stamps the importance of good research in to

the mind of newbie-players.

It would be nice to get some other views on here, critsim or not

FinalStrigon wrote:
A 10-turn delay isn't anything, though. I can set up all of the construction lists in my systems, set my research list, and then just click through turns, only pausing when I need to pay attention to something.



By this logic, as I see it, if I decide to just focus solely on research and everyone else builds up their fleets, well, I should just get fleets out of nowhere to keep the game even. The game requires you to keep a balanced style of play this way, so you don't find yourself suddenly overwhelmed by the other players. And if you are having trouble keeping up (because everyone is the Sophons, or the Cravers, and just have so many more science points than you), try and get stuff through diplomacy, or espionage whenever we get those options.



I see no reason why the game should cater to and help the people who are, in effect, losing the game. It simply isn't fair to those who are winning. If you want a "rise from the ashes" victory, then work for it and earn it. If the game has to help you beat the other players, it's just hollow.

well, now you managed to ignore my first post entirly while solely focusing on the second one. The First post stated the reasons for why a Tech could fall into your hands.... things like reverse engineering of wrecks or traded goods and espionage. currently we don't have a espionage system in the game, if we ever get it, then we have more options. Right now the Game is almost Beta and it's not likely we get that option until after gold.



Also, these things actually happend.... our civilisation had technology transfers through trade, war and espionage for a couple of thousands years now (some 4x games even included similar mechanics into their games, it's nothing new).



You always put yourself at risk when trying to abuse this system.... what if there is another civ at the other end of the Galaxy that has a hard time surviving, doing next to no research? Since you only get Tech for free when a majority of races has that tech (and even then with a 10 turn delay, maybe more, nothing is final here). What if that 75% or whatever isn't reached? right, nothing. I also proposed that only techs until a certain lvl should be "shared". could be as low as 30% of the tech trees, all subject to discussion.



@Welly I don't see any reason why this couldn't be one of those options that could be turned of at the start of the game. I for one really would like that option.

I personally feel that this would be something that would be useful for the new kind of player who has yet to get a grasp of the game, but my idea is this;



Research after time become common knowledge which helps keep a new play from been completely left behind, the idea would go along the lines of something like, "if 75% or more of players have one technology it becomes common knowledge after say, 10 turns to the other factions" or, "if 75% is 2 ranks higher then this tech on the tech tree the technology become common knowledge"



This could be a feature that could be disabled in the options if you wanted because it would also affect the AI players, but really, its only a small catch-up boost to the lowest ranking players, and I feel would benefit New Players



Yours Faithfuly

WellyCollins

Calico wrote:
I agree that it's part of the "charme" of a 4x game that you never know what you get. But part of the charm is also that you can rise out of the ashes, when you got a bad start.... if you survive long enough. Common Knowledge would help with those early setbacks, even with the 10 turn delay proposed.



On the point of ressources, that might be true to a degree. Still, not all Tech needs special ressources, so it could be still a small advantage. Or maybe you got some special ressources in your own territory, allowing you to trade them.

A 10-turn delay isn't anything, though. I can set up all of the construction lists in my systems, set my research list, and then just click through turns, only pausing when I need to pay attention to something.



By this logic, as I see it, if I decide to just focus solely on research and everyone else builds up their fleets, well, I should just get fleets out of nowhere to keep the game even. The game requires you to keep a balanced style of play this way, so you don't find yourself suddenly overwhelmed by the other players. And if you are having trouble keeping up (because everyone is the Sophons, or the Cravers, and just have so many more science points than you), try and get stuff through diplomacy, or espionage whenever we get those options.



I see no reason why the game should cater to and help the people who are, in effect, losing the game. It simply isn't fair to those who are winning. If you want a "rise from the ashes" victory, then work for it and earn it. If the game has to help you beat the other players, it's just hollow.

FinalStrigon wrote:
I still disagree. I just don't think being able to suddenly have tech through common knowledge is a good idea. Yeah, it would balance the game out in situations like you mention, but...Well, that's half the fun of playing in these randomly generated galaxies. If the game screws you over at the start of one, well, then you got screwed over. Do your best to adapt and overcome, or simply hope for better in the next game.



Besides, if you started off that badly, you probably won't even have the resources needed to use the higher levels of tech.

I agree that it's part of the "charme" of a 4x game that you never know what you get. But part of the charm is also that you can rise out of the ashes, when you got a bad start.... if you survive long enough. Common Knowledge would help with those early setbacks, even with the 10 turn delay proposed.



On the point of ressources, that might be true to a degree. Still, not all Tech needs special ressources, so it could be still a small advantage. Or maybe you got some special ressources in your own territory, allowing you to trade them.

I think it's nice idea. If other races expect one (two for 8 and more races) have a technology, this race will get the technology with a delay (average time of researching this one).

And I really want to see an espionage and a counter-espionage!

FinalStrigon wrote:
I still disagree. I just don't think being able to suddenly have tech through common knowledge is a good idea. Yeah, it would balance the game out in situations like you mention, but...Well, that's half the fun of playing in these randomly generated galaxies. If the game screws you over at the start of one, well, then you got screwed over. Do your best to adapt and overcome, or simply hope for better in the next game.



Besides, if you started off that badly, you probably won't even have the resources needed to use the higher levels of tech.

That may be true, but some are passive like wormholes, and for new plays it might be great help to them if its described and it would also affect weapons on ships giving the recivers fleets a fighting chance to atlest some level, an, i suppose you could have the option to turn it off when setting up the game

I still disagree. I just don't think being able to suddenly have tech through common knowledge is a good idea. Yeah, it would balance the game out in situations like you mention, but...Well, that's half the fun of playing in these randomly generated galaxies. If the game screws you over at the start of one, well, then you got screwed over. Do your best to adapt and overcome, or simply hope for better in the next game.



Besides, if you started off that badly, you probably won't even have the resources needed to use the higher levels of tech.

Virus wrote:
I dont like comman knoweledge.

I play sophans most and i only live if i have an advantage from higher technology.

The idea of stealing or spying is better but is also dont like it except there is a way to counter it.

I also like playing Sophons, but from what i read from the OPs Suggestion, it would only become "common knowledge" under specific critereas. One of them beeing that most races (insert high percentage here) already have this tech. So, only if a majority of races of the Galaxy have that Tech, it would be passed on to the less advanced.



I kinda like the idea. Most technology on earth was shared one way or the other, so it's not totally unrealistic (spying, trade, reverse engineering).



It could also help with balance.... i mean, just take my last game for an example:

The Sophons had bad luck, only 2 planets in the start system, rather uninhabitable and small Systems around them and the cravers as neighbours.... All this combined was a big set-back. The sophons where hit hard by the cravers in early game and only had control over 2-3 Systems left before i could drive the Cravers away. They were lacking in everything because of that early set-back, resources, tech, Fleets...... no chance to compete with the few other races. With the "Common Knowledge", as layed out by the OP they would at least had some better tech available. Not the best Tech (i was playing UE and had the best Tech), but at least those Techs that all the other races in galaxy already had developed (so all Techs that was developed by the three other races, the Cravers, Hissho and me had = 75% of the other races). Only those Techs everyone had developed independently, so not my "Super Tech". The OP also mentions a 10 turn wait until this would happen, so even a technology known to the 75% would be passed on with a delay (although i think 10 turns is a bit much).



To stay with the above example: my UE has superior Tech, far more advanced then the poor Sophons. i trade with them and the Hissho.... so trade goods, manufactured with the superior tech gets into Sophons hands quite regulary. At some point in time they will be able to reverse engineer at least the basic technology. Even knowing that something is possible acts a strong motivation to find out how it is possible. Also they have fought the Cravers earlier and longer then any other race... why not assume that their big brains at least figured out the most basic tech the cravers have been using against them.



only thing i would add would be: Only techs up to the, lets say, half of the tech tree are shared this way. Everything above the 50% won't be shared.



TL;dr: Seems possible and realistic, could also help with balancing, giving races that had early set-backs a fighting chance.

I dont like comman knoweledge.

I play sophans most and i only live if i have an advantage from higher technology.

The idea of stealing or spying is better but is also dont like it except there is a way to counter it.

I wouldn't go the common knowledge route with tech, but instead give us the ability to spy on enemies and see their technology, and try to steal it if we want. There's a system similar to this in Empire: Total War, and it's difficult, but it's an option for those who want to try. And both games already offer the chance to get new tech from making diplomatic deals.



The only thing that has me arguing against common knowledge is, well...If you develop some new, awesome weapon system for example, are you going to let the details slip out to the public and let everyone know about it? No, of course not. You want to keep the advantage for as long as possible. Other races won't find out how to make the system until they see it in action and try to copy it (such as the M1 Garand and StG44 leading to the development of the AK-47), or until you get spies in there to steal the tech (like how the USSR got their hands on atomic bomb plans).