No other race is going to have Admin/Director clones to the sheer extent that Horatio does. You can't "get lucky" and pull out 11 heroes like that (that many doesn't even exist). You need to face this fact: It is probable that Horatio can have an incredible governor on quite a large percentage of the systems they own, and this is not a benefit that needs buffing.



Tell me how this isn't strong enough on its own:



http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/nefloyd/cloning.jpg



That hero alone is worth 25% of the system's production, between his direct addition, multipliers, and indirectly because of the happiness boost he provides, which keeps the system at ecstatic levels (which boosts production)



thats on turn 118, btw. Not a single system is using farms or food boosting constructions

Nycidian wrote:
Yes but doing so is offset by the enormous cost and having to get rid of the heroes you already had. See option number one.

As it is there isn't enough to spend dust on, there is always a huge surplus.

This thread is the origin of all discussions about changing Horatio traits and affinity.

Other threads about this have been archived:

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13292-suggestion-horatio-bonus-negatives-rework



Feel free to post here about this topic here and inform yourself about the variations the threads listed above have already discussed, but don't open new suggestion threads for anything alike.

Maybe the quality of an clone is dependent on how long it is kept in the tank? For each level of the hero that is being cloned, the clone would gain one level for every turn that it is allowed to develop. So a LV20 hero-clone would require at least twenty turns of upkeep and 20 turns of cloning time in the vat. However, the clone has to bake for a longer period than this in order to retain genetic stability, so one extra turn per level would be required to make the clone's levels permanent, so you could take up to 40 turns to produce a perfect clone. If the clone is released early, it would start losing those artificial levels, since it wasn't created properly.

Well, considering that at the moment, hiring heroes is about the only thing I bother with dust for...

Clones should start from level 1 in my opinion. Even if they bump the cost to 10k dust for cloning a Level 20 guy, I'd save my dust for it.

The easiest way to nerf the hero ability is a "cloning" degradation of DNA. Because the "hero" is different in some way from Horatio why should they retain their strengths in each clone?



lets say, each time you clone a hero the new hero loses a portion of the formers abilities and strengths. Even if you were to completely remove that "new" clone and try to "clone" again the next one would be weaker than the last. Meaning, a total "shift" from military to governance clones is impossible. You would constantly be needed to upgrade fresh heroes to replaces the inept clones.

"

I think it is quite early now to speak about nerfRaceX/buffRaceY, so much could possibly change... and there is so much to discover yet as the dev will implement additional contents step by step (new hero, new race, etc..).



"Balance study" step will come during the beta phase, once all the features will be implemented. It is not very relevant for now...



By the way, honestly the balance is obviously not perfect now, but it is already quite good so far. (personal opinion)

You guys all forget that Horatio has many population upgrades aswell. As it says on Horatio description; their victory type/playstyle is expansion. In other words, they play for the long-run.

Horatio's unique tech upgrade, the one that adds +3 heroes for other races, also adds another +3 for clones-only. I wasn't even at the academy limit there, I still had an unused slot. There still IS a limit. It's not infinite.

nefloyd wrote:




Tell me how this isn't strong enough on its own:



http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/nefloyd/cloning.jpg

Ok nm I was under the impression you couldn't have more than the academy restrictions of heroes whether they were clones or not. Which if read my first post should be blatantly obvious.



In that case I think it should be nerfed.



Infinite full powered heroes is stupid.

PyroVortex wrote:
Incidentally, I'm not quite sure what the Sophons affinity actually does, because the research boost is a separate faction trait...

Affinity determines the unique/upgraded techs that race gets - Sophons get 1 tech a lot sooner in the tree, have a unique tech with systemwide science % increase based on happiness, etc. Also your home planet type is part of affinity, I think.



Sophon's other affinity is they have a 50% discount on support modules (prod cost? tonnage usage? both? something)

Nicely done.



Incidentally, I'm not quite sure what the Sophons affinity actually does, because the research boost is a separate faction trait...

Edit: I was under the impression Horatio were limited in number of heroes like everyone else.



This suggestion would be an appropriate nerf I beleive.



[HR][/HR]Instead of cloning into the academy a Clone would be installed via a new option next to the assign button called clone. This button instead of copying the hero would create a Clone in that fleet or system.

• Making a Clone would follow the same cost as it is currently.
• Clones being copies and not the original would not be able to gain experience.
• If a battle is lost or a colony is conquered the Clone would be lost and would need to be purchased again.
• Clone's bonuses would be halved.
• Clones would not be able to use abilities that cost Dust.
  
  

[HR][/HR]

Again every race has access to heroes, yes they won't likely be quite as good as the Horatio but they aren't crap either.



Also, you can get lucky with another race and be just as good. Alternately, the Horatio could get unlucky and get nothing they want.

Lackluster in the beginning? Hero cloning is MASSIVELY powerful right now. Within the first 50-100 turns I can have something like 8 systems all with the same food/prod/happiness super bonuses thanks to an administrator. How is this bonus not always powerful? You don't even need any of the food constructions this way



I can't even begin to imagine how OP you could make a custom race by using Horatio's affinity and cherry picking other traits. Hero cloning likely needs a nerf, certainly not a buff. You are simply widely underestimating the huge snowball effect that such a major boost to 3+ systems early on can have.

lyravega wrote:
Horatio administrators can grant a colony +25 flat production and +50 food. And that is when they reach level 5-6 as far as I remember. And reaching that level doesn't take long & on the long run, will be much, MUCH more beneficial.



And, if you are assigning a manager to a colony, then leaving it, that is your playstyle problem. To get the best benefits, you need to reassign them where needed. 3 is well enough to get a cluster fully colonized merely in turns.

You don't have to be Horatio to that.



Is it a bit easier to do with cloning?



Yes.



But not so much I think it worth it to be that race, I think they need something extra.

Nycidian wrote:
Secondly, While in the end cloning may be powerful it is very lackluster in the beginning which is what I'm worried about. I'm worried about that because other factions get bonuses that are always powerful the best example is the Sophons which with there scientific advantage. This gets exponentially better the longer you play, as the faster you can gain tech the faster you can increase population/industry/science which in turn grows tech, which in turn grows population/industry/science, ad infinitum... While cloning does have this exponential effect, eventually, it is much more stepped and has very little effect at the beginning.



If all growth in the game was linear this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but because growth is exponential not being able to fully utilize cloning until you get more academy slots is not as useful as an affinity traits that gives the full benefit from the start of the game.

Horatio administrators can grant a colony +25 flat production and +50 food. And that is when they reach level 5-6 as far as I remember. And reaching that level doesn't take long & on the long run, will be much, MUCH more beneficial.



And, if you are assigning a manager to a colony, then leaving it, that is your playstyle problem. To get the best benefits, you need to reassign them where needed. 3 is well enough to get a cluster fully colonized merely in turns.

Most of the time, in the beginning of the game, you find 0-2 heroes who have the capabilities that you need (for example, Administrator, with a decent Labor score). With Horatio, if you have at least one, you have three...

Nycidian wrote:
First off not sure where "petty" came in, why you need to use personal insults in a discussion where I in no way insulted you is concerning.

Looks to me like he was referring to the cost you mentioned, not to you, unless you consider yourself a "that"

Nycidian wrote:
Secondly, While in the end cloning may be powerful it is very lackluster in the beginning which is what I'm worried about. I'm worried about that because other factions get bonuses that are always powerful the best example is the Sophons which with there scientific advantage. This gets exponentially better the longer you play, as the faster you can gain tech the faster you can increase population/industry/science which in turn grows tech, which in turn grows population/industry/science, ad infinitum... While cloning does have this exponential effect, eventually, it is much more stepped and has very little effect at the beginning.

I find the usefulness of clones in the beginning to be pretty substantial. While exploring and building up the homeworld my first hero will normally gain a couple of levels which means the second system I start gets a copy of the first hero, by the time I get my third system it will start with +25 prodution (among other things). This alows the Horatio opening game to put them in a substantially advantaged position. By turn 100 it's not hard to have three systems with over 20 pop each and the resulting FIDS from that should secure your lead nicely. From that point it's just a matter of conquest and expansion to keep the other empires down.



Don't underestimate the power of a strong opening game, exploit that advantage and the other empires will never catch up.

ArrowLance wrote:
That is petty. The cost isn't enormous at all and its exactly that we want to get rid of the other heroes if we want to change gears. This flexibility is one of the huge benifits the Horatio have, they have no need to start with a bunch of lv1 admirals if they need to switch to a military front and they can have 10 Administrators with all the food and production bonuses to max new systems in a few years if they aren't in need of the admirals. They can continually switch between the two gaining huge FIDS advantages.

First off not sure where "petty" came in, why you need to use personal insults in a discussion where I in no way insulted you is concerning.



Secondly, While in the end cloning may be powerful it is very lackluster in the beginning which is what I'm worried about. I'm worried about that because other factions get bonuses that are always powerful the best example is the Sophons which with there scientific advantage. This gets exponentially better the longer you play, as the faster you can gain tech the faster you can increase population/industry/science which in turn grows tech, which in turn grows population/industry/science, ad infinitum... While cloning does have this exponential effect, eventually, it is much more stepped and has very little effect at the beginning.



If all growth in the game was linear this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but because growth is exponential not being able to fully utilize cloning until you get more academy slots is not as useful as an affinity traits that gives the full benefit from the start of the game.

Nycidian wrote:
Yes but doing so is offset by the enormous cost and having to get rid of the heroes you already had. See option number one.

The cost is nothing. It should either increase exponentially, or by a flat amount- tenfold maybe. Seriously, that cost is nothing compared to the benefits you get.

Nycidian wrote:
Yes but doing so is offset by the enormous cost and having to get rid of the heroes you already had. See option number one.

That is petty. The cost isn't enormous at all and its exactly that we want to get rid of the other heroes if we want to change gears. This flexibility is one of the huge benifits the Horatio have, they have no need to start with a bunch of lv1 admirals if they need to switch to a military front and they can have 10 Administrators with all the food and production bonuses to max new systems in a few years if they aren't in need of the admirals. They can continually switch between the two gaining huge FIDS advantages.

Clones/cloning are/is already overpowered. What are you talking about?



33% more academic slots?

No cloning cost?



Are you serious? Have you checked the tech tree for Horatio? They can have 11 clones of the same hero. And if you think cloning cost is high, or clones are useless alltogether, you are playing Horatio wrong.



If cloning is going to make 1:1 copy of the chosen hero, they should add an exponentially increasing cost to it. So the more you clone a hero, it becomes much more costly. Clone or not, doesn't matter, it adds up to the same thing.



But if you ask me, clones should start from level 1, as a fresh version of the said hero.



In addition to example above, where Arrowlance talks about military side of it, I'd like to talk about management side of it. I was able to colonize 5-6 systems at the same time, and thanks to clones they were getting to 10 pop. cap within 20 turns or something like that. Having a level 15 hero, then with a small fee, getting another of it is ridiculously OP. If you think otherwise, you either don't enjoy balanced stuff, or you are playing Horatio wrong as I've said.

Yes but doing so is offset by the enormous cost and having to get rid of the heroes you already had. See option number one.

I think you underestimate the ability to clone Heroes. You only have to have two heroes to become so efficient its hard to compete. I usually prioritize academy slot upgrades when I play them so I can have even more awesome clones. The benefit comes not in choice but in you don't have to level up heroes individually. Cloning a lvl 20 fleet admiral several times when a war starts almost guarantees fleet supremacy with this current build. You just can't beat +130% resistances and +120% damages then you can warp warp warp and win all but the most dismal of matchups.