YellowSock wrote:
Do I look like a Hyperdrive expert to you?

I'm relieved to hear that.



From a technical point of view, let's assume that a vibration is a periodic motion to a point of rest. In more detail, a vibration (emitted by the new, researched structure/device) is a periodic motion to a point of rest (the star system).







By the way what I mean is the energy transfer through and between oscillations. Is the oscillation of the ship which tries to pass into the region of influence is not equal to it (achieved by the special tech module), it will collapse.



Imagine the following situation: Two objects (the passing ship and the region of influence) oscillate with the same frequency (hence both oscillations have the same period). Thus the ship can pass the border. If not, the ship get destroyed. In other words: when two processes (the passing ship and the region of influence) are of the same frequency in a temporal coupling: there is a phase relationship. If not, which means the haven't the same phase, the ship get destroyed.

Well guys, I think we reached an impasse. Should the devs weigh the proposal. Hopefully they can use something from it.

Well that's why I suggested a gas giant, so I can hear the phone.

What I was trying to say there was that if this device is supposed to "emit vibrations", it is useless because vibrations can only travel through matter(air, water or any form). I've never said that vibrations don't work in space, for example if you throw your mobile phone out of space station and your girlfriend calls you after:



1. you won't be able to hear it ringing (acoustic vibrations can't travel through vacuum)

2. the phone can still vibrate (phone = solid matter)

3. and you're in trouble (your gf is pissed)



As I said I'm no Hyperdrive expertlol, so I've never heard about the gas giants related stuff.

thidepep wrote:
I'm relieved to hear that.



From a technical point of view, let's assume that a vibration is a periodic motion to a point of rest. In more detail, a vibration (emitted by the new, researched structure/device) is a periodic motion to a point of rest (the star system).







By the way what I mean is the energy transfer through and between oscillations. Is the oscillation of the ship which tries to pass into the region of influence is not equal to it (achieved by the special tech module), it will collapse.



Imagine the following situation: Two objects (the passing ship and the region of influence) oscillate with the same frequency (hence both oscillations have the same period). Thus the ship can pass the border. If not, the ship get destroyed. In other words: when two processes (the passing ship and the region of influence) are of the same frequency in a temporal coupling: there is a phase relationship. If not, which means the haven't the same phase, the ship get destroyed.

Possibly I read wrong, but as you said that vibrations don't work in space.



So I suggested the use of a Gas giant. and the speculated science fiction based on the use of Gas giants to initiate FTL Jumps.

What does it have to do with that and for what exactly would you need a gas giant for FTL jump initiation anyway?

thidepep wrote:
Is your post related to this topic?

YellowSock wrote:
If your mystical device would be emitting a "vibration", it wouldn't work in space, since vibration is associated with something mechanical only not a vacuum.

I was talking about this.

thidepep wrote:
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited. (Albert Einstein)

And everything is relative. It doesn't matter that I can imagine a weapon which would fire pink bolts that would turn everything into cute little bunnies. My point is that such star system defense technology is way too much even for science fiction setup, if something like that would be possible, you could just forget all kinetic/beam/laser/missile weaponry and have a weapon generating some waves of who knows what. Even if the enemy would have countermeasures for that, you can just change frequency/phase and baam! he's turned into space rubble.

Igncom1 wrote:
You could use gas giants as jump points? (That would be a really cool science fiction idea, having to use gas giants to initiate a FTL jump)

Is your post related to this topic?

YellowSock wrote:
If your mystical device would be emitting a "vibration", it wouldn't work in space, since vibration is associated with something mechanical only not a vacuum.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited. (Albert Einstein)

You could use gas giants as jump points?



(That would be a really cool science fiction idea, having to use gas giants to initiate a FTL jump)

thidepep wrote:
From a technical point of view, let's assume that a vibration is a periodic motion to a point of rest. In more detail, a vibration (emitted by the new, researched structure/device) is a periodic motion to a point of rest (the star system).

If your mystical device would be emitting a "vibration", it wouldn't work in space, since vibration is associated with something mechanical only not a vacuum.

As Amplitude announced, the upcoming Expansion Pack will focus on bringing a new dimension to battles.



For me, its not all about "pewpew", its about strategic decisions! So I want to suggest the following idea:



Introduction

Following the travel mechanics & diplomatic conditions of endless space, you cannot move ships/fleets through or into the enemy Regions of Influence i.e. space controlled by one of your opponents (colored disks on map, affected by population and system improvements), when you are not at peace and have an open borders treaty or be at war with the enemy. "Cold war" will also prevent movement of your ships.



However, if you or your enemy starts a war, the regions of influence will become insignificant!



WHY?





Idea

System and ship improvements you can use for defense and war.



System and ship improvements

The idea behind that, is to use and improve the given travel mechanics & diplomatic conditions.

Now, if you or your enemy starts a war, the regions of influence will NOT become insignificant! For instance, you can research something via the tech tree whats called "hardened borders" (like new structure) which allows you to prevent ships/fleets entering your region of influence of the specific star system which uses this improvement in case of war.



Only ships - equipped with special tech (which you also have to research) like sensors, stealth tech etc. - are allowed to pass your border / region of influence.





After passing the region of influence and finally entering your star system these ships have three choices: blockade your system, beginning the invasion or firstly destroy the special structure which gives you the ability to harden your star system. The last choice enables the invader to bring in supplies (other ships now can pass the border / region of influence without having the special tech equipped).



You can distinguish wether the star system has that kind of improvement or not just by seeing it on the star map. (same colored disks on map but with a pattern border for those systems).



However

a) the special tech uses a lot of weight you cannot use for weapons etc. anymore. Therefore, the ships equipped with that kind of special tech are very vulnerable.

b) destroying the special structure at first takes more time than just invading your system (so you get more time to set up your defense fleet)

...



It's just a first thought. Anyhow, the idea needs to get refined.

What do you think about it?

thidepep wrote:
Why does faster-than-light methods to travel prevent them from being stopped? It's no wormhole travel.

Do I look like a Hyperdrive expert to you? wait, don't answer that! Because faster-than-light travel methods take place in different dimension/s or something like that.

thidepep wrote:
Or maybe it'll "repel" you replying my posts.

Maybe.

YellowSock wrote:
because the ships use faster-than-light methods to travel from one solar system to another and would just jump right into the system unaffected.

Why does faster-than-light methods to travel prevent them from being stopped? It's no wormhole travel.

YellowSock wrote:
Of course! Let me just sit next to the mystical fountain in my backyard for an hour and throw wooden sticks on it. Who knows, maybe it'll create some force field to repel the sticks eventually.

Or maybe it'll "repel" you replying my posts.

thidepep wrote:
I understand it as a visual barrier for all other empires (ships, fleets) within endless space. Indeed, it envelops the star system BUT without influencing it. It doesn't emit some kind of force of gravity, dangerous radiation like radioactive particle etc.



The field uses a harmonic oscillation, which the enemy ships can't pass without having the right calibration techology installed (the special tech module) on there own ships. The function behind that: the special tech adjusts the ships own calibration to the same amount as the region of influence uses and so the ship can pass the field. Otherwise the ships would collaps. Well, it's bought dearly to pass that field because you sacrifice a lot of weight of your ships to do so. But that's the plan, to force you to use a particular strategy - based on the less tonnage your ships have - which certainly fit to your style of play.



Since I couldn't convince you with that mystical idea I want to try it again.

The field is not about a high energy output to destroy the hostile ships. The forced, mechanical oscillation uses a fraction of that energy you addressed to establish the region of influence. Ask the scientists at our solar station.

In such case it would be completly useless, because the ships use faster-than-light methods to travel from one solar system to another and would just jump right into the system unaffected.lol

thidepep wrote:
Do you have some empirical data to confute my argument.

Of course! Let me just sit next to the mystical fountain in my backyard for an hour and throw wooden sticks on it. Who knows, maybe it'll create some force field to repel the sticks eventually.

YellowSock wrote:
Ok, but I just can't get over this.

Technology that would affect all matter in space around your star system? You would need to envelope the whole star system with some kind of anti-gravitational field generator that would repel all matter and at the same time wouldn't affect the star system itself. It's not like jamming some signals, so that enemy can't find out your position outside of his physical visual range.

I understand it as a visual barrier for all other empires (ships, fleets) within endless space. Indeed, it envelops the star system BUT without influencing it. It doesn't emit some kind of force of gravity, dangerous radiation like radioactive particle etc.



The field uses a harmonic oscillation, which the enemy ships can't pass without having the right calibration techology installed (the special tech module) on there own ships. The function behind that: the special tech adjusts the ships own calibration to the same amount as the region of influence uses and so the ship can pass the field. Otherwise the ships would collaps. Well, it's bought dearly to pass that field because you sacrifice a lot of weight of your ships to do so. But that's the plan, to force you to use a particular strategy - based on the less tonnage your ships have - which certainly fit to your style of play.

YellowSock wrote:
No! Because science and anything mystical doesn't exactly go hand in hand.

Do you have some empirical data to confute my argument.

YellowSock wrote:
I think it would require incredible amount of energy

Since I couldn't convince you with that mystical idea I want to try it again.

The field is not about a high energy output to destroy the hostile ships. The forced, mechanical oscillation uses a fraction of that energy you addressed to establish the region of influence. Ask the scientists at our solar station.

Ok, but I just can't get over this.

thidepep wrote:
Why should it require energy?

Technology that would affect all matter in space around your star system? You would need to envelope the whole star system with some kind of anti-gravitational field generator that would repel all matter and at the same time wouldn't affect the star system itself. It's not like jamming some signals, so that enemy can't find out your position outside of his physical visual range.

thidepep wrote:
Can't it be some kind of mystical field, generated by the special tech using an artefact or something else? What's about the fictional heart of endless space? A immersion into the storyline of endless space?

No! Because science and anything mystical doesn't exactly go hand in hand.

Hi YellowSock, nice to read you again!

YellowSock wrote:
why can your scientists/engineers pack that technology in a small packadge(ship module), while other races/empires can't and have to use tech that uses a lot of weight, so they cannot use weapons on ships equipped with it?

Okay, maybe thats a lore thing.

Your own ships don't have to equip the special tech at all. The ships, for instance, have the right calibration-technology implemented, the other empires don't have/know. That's the reason why the other empires have to research special tech to bypass that calibration in order to pass your region of influence...

YellowSock wrote:
How can you blockade or invade with ships without weapons(invasion support modules are even heavier than weapons)?

Let's say that a special tech modul has a weight of 70.

Weapon modules are max. 20 and invasion modules are max. 28.

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_Module

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Support_Module



It's a trade-off between packing weapon modules or invasion modules into your ship. You can do both!

However, since the special tech allocates a lot of weight / is heavier (you need it to cross the border though), your ship will not be as effective as it could be in terms of weapon strength or invasion strength compared with a ship without the special tech equipped.



For instance, if you equip your ship with weapons, you can first fight the enemy, destroy the special structure/device, clean the star system or blockade it and after that get more ships, this time equipped with invasion modules or more weapons to the star system.



Fact is, that that special tech you need to pass the enemies border needs a lot of weight. Why? Only a few ships, less powerful should be able to pass the region of influence... Once they destroyed the special device or structer (which you researched and installed on your system) ALL ships can pass the border and they no longer need that special tech.



Of course, you can create a fleet of ships (each needs the special tech). The whole fleet is able to pass the border, but it's not as powerful as it could be since the special tech uses a lot of weight.

YellowSock wrote:
How can an enemy ship with such special(heavy) tech enable any other ships without that tech to enter your influence area? Only way IMHO would be to have a support ship capable of shielding the fleet from such influence in every single fleet you send in.

Very nice idea indeed!!! It's the first time you get familiar with my idea, don't you?

Well, the ships which are equipped with that kind of tech can only use it for themself. Why? The special tech is like a membrane that only covers the structure of the ship and cannot be used to create something like a bubble around other ships.

YellowSock wrote:
And to be honest I still don't like the whole idea either some sort of galactic force-field that prevents entry altogether or slow movement speed of enemy ships on such a large scale.

Well, it's a proposal, no more, no less.

YellowSock wrote:
I think it would require incredible amount of energy not even some Endless Wonder Generator would be able to provide, considering one game turn lasts one year.

Why should it require energy? Can't it be some kind of mystical field, generated by the special tech using an artefact or something else? What's about the fictional heart of endless space? A immersion into the storyline of endless space?

Sorry for all the nit-picking, but if

thidepep wrote:
Only ships - equipped with special tech (which you also have to research) like sensors, stealth tech etc. - are allowed to pass your border / region of influence.



After passing the region of influence and finally entering your star system these ships have three choices: blockade your system, beginning the invasion or firstly destroy the special structure which gives you the ability to harden your star system. The last choice enables the invader to bring in supplies (other ships now can pass the border / region of influence without having the special tech equipped).



However

a) the special tech uses a lot of weight you cannot use for weapons etc. anymore. Therefore, the ships equipped with that kind of special tech are very vulnerable.

why can your scientists/engineers pack that technology in a small packadge(ship module), while other races/empires can't and have to use tech that uses a lot of weight, so they cannot use weapons on ships equipped with it?



How can you blockade or invade with ships without weapons(invasion support modules are even heavier than weapons)?



How can an enemy ship with such special(heavy) tech enable any other ships without that tech to enter your influence area? Only way IMHO would be to have a support ship capable of shielding the fleet from such influence in every single fleet you send in.



And to be honest I still don't like the whole idea either some sort of galactic force-field that prevents entry altogether or slow movement speed of enemy ships on such a large scale. I think it would require incredible amount of energy not even some Endless Wonder Generator would be able to provide, considering one game turn lasts one year.

NobleIre wrote:
I admit that I don't much like the idea. Not because of the idea itself, but because of the lore/logic in implementing it story-wise. The 'no entry' rule makes sense when you are at peace with someone and don't have open borders, as moving into your territory effectively declares war on them. If one country moves aircraft into another country's airspace, they are going to have imminent problems. So its a diplomatic issue that blocks the borders.



This would seem to imply some sort of galactic force-field that prevents entry altogether. And that I have trouble with.

Let's take on that the region of influence is "like a galactic force field" - as you said - generated by each race automatically. The Diplomacy is just the agreement how both parties handle it.



In time of peace, the other side cannot pass the region of influence without an open borders treaty, otherwise it means declaring war. Thus it's just a diplomatic clause which provides that others don't move into your systems. The "galactic force field" don't prevent anything without diplomacy.



(However, you have to adapt "cold war", as the "galactic force field" - regarding the current diplomatic mechanics - still prevent your opponents to pass your border. In my opinion it's a misconception to assume that in times of cold war your enemy isn't able to cross your border! Cold war is rather war than peace. With the current game mechanics my hands are tied though.)



Beside that diplomatic issus, you are able to harden your border by researching something via the tech tree whats called "hardened borders". You can apply these tech to every star system you whant. Its costly, but it enables you to extend your diplomatic agreements by something new without breaking diplomatic rules. It's like to provision for the future!



If you have an open borders treaty your opponent still can pass your star systems despite the new tech. If you declare war, your opponent now can only pass with special vessels, equipped with new tech. (for further explanation see first post)



Isn't it a good enhancement of the existing diplomatic mechanics / ship-fleet movement strategies?

NobleIre wrote:
However, while i'm not a fan of the exact idea.. I do like the concept of being able to restrict movement. Perhaps, as an alternative, a system that enabled you to restrict movement within your system. A system upgrade that would slow movement speed of enemy ships. Some sort of 'Spacial Disruptor' or some similar device, which your own ships are obviously designed to be able to ignore.

Nevertheless I like your idea! It's less complicated than mine and still provides kind of the same logic.



All I am trying to suggest is to prevent the enemy reaching your "border-systems" to fast! Especially in the late game fleets are huge! With these huge fleets invading star systems is done in just a few rounds... With the new improvements it's more strategic, because you have to set up a plan beforehand and can't just rush your opponent.



The lore aspect

The idea adds

1. new tech you have to research on your tech trees

2. new ship modules / variety of ships

3. new system improvements like devices / structures

4. more strategic choices

I admit that I don't much like the idea. Not because of the idea itself, but because of the lore/logic in implementing it story-wise. The 'no entry' rule makes sense when you are at peace with someone and don't have open borders, as moving into your territory effectively declares war on them. If one country moves aircraft into another country's airspace, they are going to have imminent problems. So its a diplomatic issue that blocks the borders.



This would seem to imply some sort of galactic force-field that prevents entry altogether. And that I have trouble with.



However, while i'm not a fan of the exact idea.. I do like the concept of being able to restrict movement. Perhaps, as an alternative, a system that enabled you to restrict movement within your system. A system upgrade that would slow movement speed of enemy ships. Some sort of 'Spacial Disruptor' or some similar device, which your own ships are obviously designed to be able to ignore.

YellowSock wrote:
Since "Ships can not reverse direction once travel along a Cosmic String has commenced, they must continue to the opposite system", if some ship/fleet without needed countermeasure enters the cosmic string or wormhole on another end, which is not under yours system influence, is it goind to "hit the wall" and explode/evaporate or something?

Maybe the border or region of influence triggers the end of the cosmic string, causes the ship/fleet to stop. It's like a new end point of the cosmic string. When your ship stops in the middle of the string, for example, you can give your ship a new command (e.g. turn back). As the extension of your region of influence is still affected by population and system improvements the new end point is also moving.

Since "Ships can not reverse direction once travel along a Cosmic String has commenced, they must continue to the opposite system", if some ship/fleet without needed countermeasure enters the cosmic string or wormhole on another end, which is not under yours system influence, is it goind to "hit the wall" and explode/evaporate or something?