Trade is meant as a way to strengthen smaller empires, internal trade would only strengthen larger ones.



This would only make larger empires even more of a runaway train, even with the closer distances.





While I agree that trading should be easier, and should still have ways of functioning even without a proper trading partner (Although really if your a trader without a partner, then who are you trading with, yourself? you already owned what you were trading)





So this is something I cannot support.

Igncom1 wrote:
Naughty bumping.



But realistically trade does only flourish in peace, so I am still not convinced that this would be a good idea.

Well it's an in-game mechanic, not everything has to follow real life that closely, I think it'd benefit the game a lot if trade wasn't a peace-only thing, since it's useless in MP and even against AI it's mediocre.

I think trade is somehow an essential income in that game. However in later gameplay, trade will finally go to zero because of diplomacy.



I believe that in real, trade is a mostly privat company issue and not really depending on diplomatics, at least as long there is no generally embargo instituted.



I think the TO had a good idea, however internal trade could be on a lower rate than foreign trade of course.

Naughty bumping.



But realistically trade does only flourish in peace, so I am still not convinced that this would be a good idea.

Just want to bump this, since I feel it's important trade is not completely useless when not at peace. I prefer this idea over giving the corp hero blockade breaker-like abilities because of how powerful heroes are already in this game.

But each system is not able to have 2 trade routes, only the home system. You have to build additional system improvements or have racial traits to allow your other colonies to trade at all. So the restriction is really in the number of improvements you can afford, or in custom faction traits points that can be spent elsewhere.



My point is, the benefit to trading will be even between two empires, no matter their respective sizes, assuming that both empires have vision of all of each others colonies. In fact, in games with more than one player, the larger empire still gets a net larger benefit simply because he has a larger cap of trade routes. Additionally, if his trade routes are limited, he can always choose not to build additional trade route improvements. That same smaller player is limited to his best 15 trade routes, the larger empire will have all 30 of his trade routes, which will probably be more profitable overall than the smaller player's.



The only limit for the trade opportunities of a large empire is the physical number of star systems. If at any point, he owns more than half of the star systems, the empire is unable to have all possible trade routes. Realistically this is less since there are many trade route improvements and systems can have more than 1 trade route with the right system improvements. So a smart player would stack all of the trade route improvements on the furthest star systems from the other players until he reached his max. While this adds a great layer of strategic depth, it also adds a lot of micromanagement to a 4X game, and I don't think micromanagement is a good trait for a 4X game. If you add internal trading, you add the possibility of increasing your possible trade partners, but then you are still limited to the absolute number of star systems in that case.



What I'm saying is, I agree that internal trading would favor larger empires, but every system in a 4X game favors larger empires, the only exception in Endless Space right now is the approval system, which is offset by sufficiently advanced technology.

If you can internally trade, then the bigger empire will always benefit, and that is already a huge problem in 4X games in the case of the slightly faster race grabbing slightly more planets snowballing into a force that you will never beat.



So no, I do not support this idea at all.

Well some form of expansion is the point of a 4x game. You want more planets/countries because you want more resources for more soldiers/population to get more territory. Gameplay-wise I think it'd work out better if you could just have slightly penalized trade during cold-war and heavily penalized trade during war. This idea seems good too though, since it addresses the same concern.



If you're down by many systems by late game, even double the trade routes won't help you win.

Igncom1 wrote:
Trade is meant as a way to strengthen smaller empires.

I certainly don't agree in general.

Igncom1 wrote:
(Although really if your a trader without a partner, then who are you trading with, yourself? you already owned what you were trading)

So if New York trade with Jersey, Bonn trades with Berlin, Shanghai with Bejing, ... it's them selling to themselves?



No, it's internal trade.







Frankly internal trade is a huge issue for most RL nations. Here in Canada, Alberta wants to trade oil to the Maritimes, but can't because there is no infrastructure to do that. So instead, Alberta sells oil to others for less than they could get otherwise and the Maritimes are forced to buy oil outside the country and pay more.



Internal trade is not just important, it's very important.





Further to that, I think your conclusions in game are incorrect and have no actual basis. Rather I think you have a line of thought and simply feel it is the correct one, and we disagree fundamentally. And such is life.

Trading is more beneficial to smaller empires because smaller empires can trade with more planets.



If each system can have 2 trade routes then say a 15 system empire can trade with 30 other systems, where if you are the larger empire then you can only have 15 no matter your size.



That way smaller empires have a buffer against bigger empire who don't proportionally benefit from trade more because they have more systems.





If you can internally trade, then the bigger empire will always benefit, and that is already a huge problem in 4X games in the case of the slightly faster race grabbing slightly more planets snowballing into a force that you will never beat.



So no, I do not support this idea at all.

Ign-



I don't see your point about how the trading system strengthens smaller empires. The only way this is true is if no one is at peace with the largest empire. In it's current iteration, bigger empires still benefit more from trading. Additionally, I'm not going to trade with smaller empires anyway, I'm going to crush them. With the way the trade system is now, my best bet is to be at peace and trade with an empire that is across the galaxy, no matter how big they are, and simply invade and capture neighboring empires. By the very nature of 4x games, bigger empires have a better chance of winning. More resources, more population, more fids, win. Period. The trade system will be more beneficial to larger empires regardless of if internal trade is allowed or not. The biggest determining factor in any 4x game is delicately balancing expansion with approval/economic collapse. That being said, I am in favor of internal trading at a penalty that is balanced properly.

Eysteinh wrote:
I agree that trade now is all or nothing.

agree on your agree..

The current trade system is very situational, you either go for the ideal case where you get Blockade Breakers trait and explore as much as you can or you rely on peaceful relations and hope for the best. The game is designed in such a way that you can play any faction and win without ever touching trade, which is such a pity when you considered how many techs and system improvements are linked to it.



The major issue i find with trade is the fact it requires quite an investment in system improvements which becomes totally useless if you don't have with whom to trade when diplomatic relations change, forcing you to get Blockade Breakers if you want to focus on trade.



My idea is to introduce internal trade when trade between empires is not possible, when a trade route is unused because there is no valid destination from the other empire systems, that trade route can be used for internal trade.



When an internal trade route is established, both systems between which it's established use a trade route slot, meaning it takes 2 trade route slots to establish one internal trade route, this results in actually getting only half the income per trade route used, furthermore internal trade routes provide no science only dust.



The amount of dust you can get from internal trade routes might need further adjustments for balance but the idea would be to cover up the trade infrastructure upkeep and provide some low income while trade with other empires is not you have more trade routes available compared with the amount of systems discovered.



Short version:

When no systems available to trade with, unused trade routes are used to trade between your own systems but bring only half dust income and no science.

Actually, no it shouldn't spiral out of control at all.



Keep in mind that firstly the faction is taking a 50% hit (at least as I presented it) at best, which means that it's more likely that there are (usually and in most cases regardless) much better options for the trade route with another faction. Also and this is very important as well, the distance factor when calculating the value of a trade route; it is very likely that the vast majority of a factions systems are closer to each other than they are to other factions, and so therefore the value of the internal trade is inherently less than with other factions.



The main benefits as I see it for internal trade, is that if you are a trade faction you will still be able to squeeze out a little extra money and not waste the effort on building trade related improvements, once other factions catch up somewhat then you'll get decent trades with them and your internal trade will fall off. During (cold)war, you'll still get some benefit from internal trade even if you have let's say Black Markets as presented above.



tl;dr Internal trade is very much controlled and balanced. Just because you're at (cold)war doesn't mean you completely stop manufactoring trade goods and other products, you simply find (less profitable) new markets / goods.

Internal trade would massively spiral out of control for an expansive empire.



I am up for more external trade (And bazaar modules on ships to generate dust in allied systems(Limited to 1 per ships and with the fleet cap being the max amount per system))

As a hero ability it wouldn't hurt either, and many ways to write it up;



For example;



(Corporate) Internal Trade 1; {requires Savvy Business 1, Smart Investor 1}

Allows internal trade at -75% penalty

(Corporate) Internal Trade 2; {requires Internal Trade 1}

Allows internal trade at -50% penalty



(Admin) Black Market 1; {requires Negotiator 2, Director 2}

+25% Food on blockades, Trade Routes at 17%/33% efficiency during war/cold war

(Admin) Black Market 2; {requires Black Market 1}

+50% Food on blockades, Trade Routes at 33%/67% efficiency during war/cold war

jgbaxter wrote:
I posted this in another thread that covers this, but not as default, it requires a trait;

I feel that all factions should have something similar to that as a tech or on a hero, or both.

I posted this in another thread that covers this, but not as default, it requires a trait;

jgbaxter wrote:
Opportunistic Traders (20pts); External (with other factions) Trade Routes at 33% efficiency during war, 67% efficiency during cold war. Internal (within your faction) Trade Routes at -50% all the time.****





****Blockade Breakers should be called Opportunistic Traders

Trading CAN become insane with blockade breakers, but if you get merchants 2 (+2 trade routes) right now your effectively cutting off your own hand as the game has no idea how to prioritise which trade routes should be given to which planets.

The idea of internal trade sounds great to me. It's also possible to run out of enemy systems to trade with. If you could trade between your own systems it would make the "+2 trade routes per system" faction trait seem likely possibly worth picking... As it is, I tried using it but never saw it reach its potential.

I agree that trade now is all or nothing.

I agree that trade right now is broken too easily, it can be very profitable but it is too perilous, with a simple war declaration making trade useless in that respect. I also agree that Amplitude has designed the game so that there are a lot of techs (and even a hero tree) devoted to it, yet it is broken so easily which makes no sense game-design wise.



I'm not totally convinced that internal trade is the way to go though. IMO it is better to simply introduce a tech that allows partial trading (25/50%) during war/cold-war. You could have the cold-war trading tech branching off of Relativistic Markets and the war trading tech somewhere further up the left tech tree. You could then introduce a corporate hero skill that grants another 25% (additive to the prior tech) increase to trade during war/cold-war, make it require Veteran 3. Of course, the Craver's either simply wouldn't have those two techs, or have them much further up the tech tree.

I second the need for a 'internal trade', or 'domestic trade' game mechanic.



I think it should have a few mechanics though:





Some of the trade improvements could increse the % dust from domestic trade lanes.

The trade bonus could start at less than 50%, but would get stronger with technology advancement.

The internal trade would also get a cumulative bonus according to the total number of trade lanes doing domestic trade. This could be research-unlockable, or start at a very low bonus and improve.