maxpublic wrote:
Which is fine for you lot playing the vanilla game on tiny maps, but for those of us using the much, much larger maps provided by the alternate map generator the mechanic isn't proportionately moddable. I'm okay with leaving the vanilla game the way it is since I don't and won't play it, but it'd be nice to be able to a) be able to mod the mechanic in proportion to the number of systems in the game, and b) allow the disapproval to degrade over time as a brake to fast expansion but not an indefinite "I'm a weak-knee'd liberal pussy and hate being part of large empire" penalty which, as the OP pointed out, makes any sort of conquest victory annoyingly frustrating - and impossible on those larger maps that are part of the mod.

Exactly.

StriderV wrote:
I'd advocate for having outposts cause more disapproval, but reduce this disapproval once they are colonies...



Maybe 150% when they are outposts, but 75% once they become colonies?

I wouldn't mind that, or something similar.

I think what you are missing here is that happiness structures and techs are representing exactly what you're suggesting. Expansion Disapproval does go down over time, as you build the various happiness buildings and research the various techs.



It's unreasonable to expect a person to become happier with his life if it is unchanging. He may remain just as happy/unhappy, or he may get angrier that nothing has changed for the better. Your job, as emperor, is to make those changes in your citizens' lives which will make them happy.

Sounds like a good idea.

They have the techs to research that reduce disapproval, until you get them the happiness buildings help a lot, and the first 2 are easy to get. I think the answer to this is already in the game you just have to decide that its worth researching.

To keep it short: +1.

In theory this suggestion makes sense, but in practice there's many factors that help you increase approval and counter the penalty. Besides the techs that directly reduce expansion disapproval, there's tax rate adjustments, approval improvements, approval hero traits, anomaly reductions, the occasional luxury resource and eventually terraformation options. With all those tools at your disposal, it's not long before your colonies are Ecstatic or at least Happy. Ultimately, the expansion disapproval mechanic is there merely to reduce the speed at which you expand across the galaxy, not to halt it permanently.

NewHorizon wrote:
They have the techs to research that reduce disapproval, until you get them the happiness buildings help a lot, and the first 2 are easy to get. I think the answer to this is already in the game you just have to decide that its worth researching.

Well put, agreed.

raydarken wrote:
Well put, agreed.

Why thank you sir, i did forget to include the part about taxes though. shameful.

Just FYI:



The actual complaint in this post has to do with outposts receiving expansion disapproval which is a bug. If the OP were to save and quit his game and reload it, he'd find that that planet is happy. Same thing if he ends his turn.



That said:

Expansion disapproval should go down over time. Having looked at it in my last game, the number will rise over time even if you are not colonizing anything (assuming that you do not get the -22% techs) or might as well rise, as when a system ceases being an outpost it gains the disapproval value, but it itself counts towards that value. That is, colonies are upset that they are colonies! They were so much happier when they were simply a backwater outpost.

I'm fairly sure it rises when you conquer systems and settle new planets within systems you've already colonized, too. I doubt it does on its own.



Personally, I don't see any problem with colonies being upset they're colonies. I'd expect them to be annoyed at always having to respond to a single central government. And the larger the empire, the larger the portion of the population that'd be against dependence. Which is what happens at present, if not explained in so many words.



But if a portion of this mechanic is bugged, then that should be reported in the appropriate section. I'd presume it already has been.

Colonizing within a system you have already colonized does not add additional expansion disapproval.

I'd just like to start off by saying that I love this game, however there is a minor annoyance, which is expansion disapproval. I've gotten far enough into several games where new colonies start off striking as seen in this screenshot:

I've had planets start off with even less approval, but I don't have a screenshot handy. Some of my well established colonies suffer from low approval, even with improvements.

In order to make this game enjoyable for larger maps with many planets, I am suggesting that expansion disapproval decays over time. For example, owning a colony for 100 turns, it becomes a 'core' system and no longer causes expansion disapproval.

The strategy game, Europa Universalis III, has a similar system implemented. After 50 in-game years, a province becomes a 'core' province, and is considered rightfully part of your empire.

Some Math:

Draco18s:

"Assume for a moment that expansion disapproval base is -10 per system. This means that in order to win by expansion in a medium galaxy (64 systems) you would need to own 48 of them.



That's -480 base happiness. At an 88% reduction, that leaves -57.6, which is hardly "not enough to matter." Possible to deal with? Sure, but not insignificant."

Ammendments

Spero42:

"Now, in the realm of compromise, I would definitely understand if the amount of disapproval scaled with the size of the map. IE you get more systems in larger maps, so make Disapproval smaller..."

So I am suggesting this system is only implemented if the galaxy has more than X systems, where X is a fairly large amount.

Spero42 wrote:
Expansion Disapproval does go down over time, as you build the various happiness buildings

No. The "Expansion Disapproval" modifier does not decrease when you build buildings.

It is merely mitigated.

Spero42 wrote:
It's unreasonable to expect a person to become happier with his life if it is unchanging. He may remain just as happy/unhappy, or he may get angrier that nothing has changed for the better. Your job, as emperor, is to make those changes in your citizens' lives which will make them happy.

Um. At what point does a galaxy-spanning empire become comfortable with the fact that it spans a galaxy? Probably 2 generations, all the people that grow up in this environment will consider this "normal" and while they may grow unhappy with more expansion, the existing expansion will not bother them.

See: any social issue ever. At one point in time public parks were poo-pooed because it was "socialism" and that was "bad for America." Same thing with public schools, public water, and public highways.

You're right, happiness buildings don't affect the actual number itself, but mitigating it is, pragmatically, the same thing.



The idea of "Expansion Disapproval" is to be a single number which accounts for a variety of factors which lead to unhappiness. As the empire grows, you'll have people that are upset with the size of government, the inefficiency of the bureaucracy, the fact that other systems have access to better teddy bear, etc. All of these innumerable factors are accounted for by a single number.



These factors aren't going to go away over time by themselves. Instead, it's up to the government to either distract their citizens (Hey, infinite supermarkets! Awesome!), grant them more freedoms in order to compensate for the government's shortcomings (eg Corporeal Freedom), or by instituting government policies which somehow lessen these factors (the research techs).



Hell, it's even written into the techs' flavor texts:



Quoth Applied Casimir Effect:

Colonization Program

"You can now populate stars far your starting constellation. However, to do this will require effort at all levels of society. By creating an official program and stressing the need to sacrifice small comforts in service of a larger cause, some of the discontent caused by colonization can be minimzed [SIC]."



Ultimately, you can research techs which reduce the discontentment by up to 88%. There will always be some sour grapes about the size of government, but they can be lessened.

the main problem, as i see it, is that currently it is impossible to end the game through annihilating your opponents, as you cannot destroy systems, only capture them, which will make your happieness become FUBAR even after having all the techs for it if you are playing on a huge map.



So from me a big +1 on this. I agree with the mechanics as they make a complete "rush conquer everything" tactic impossible. But i think it should be possible to slowly keep expanding your system through war and win the game through it.

See /#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14024-video-tutorial-approval-and-you-the-basics-of-the-approval-system-explained also check the links in my signature I did games on hard and on serous no issues with approval both games were played with the Optimistic trait as I was learning the release mechanics.



Right now I am playing on Impossible and Endless without the Optimistic trait and you can manage you approval as any other resource in the game. I am recording a Let''s play/Walk-through on Impossible difficulty explaining what I do and why in as much detail as I can. Due to this fact it take a long time to record as I have to play and record then watch what I did and write a script and record the audio to go with the video; but Episode 1 is almost done and it will cover the first 15 turns.

gamingalife wrote:
I did games on hard and on serous no issues with approval both games were played with the Optimistic trait as I was learning the release mechanics.

Gee. No issues with happiness while playing with a super-happy race. I wonder why that is....

Draco18s wrote:
Gee. No issues with happiness while playing with a super-happy race. I wonder why that is....

and you stopped reading there probably did not even bother to read on..



Well there you go a turn 44, no optimistic trait empire is on fervent save - https://www.dropbox.com/s/er8rwqd79gtlj0k/Tech_crash.zip - if you do not believe this is impossible check the overpopulation disapproval and expansion disapproval multi-players in the Empire Management screen and compare against the wiki values http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Game_settings



The save could be even better but I get a CTD when trying to trade technologies.



If the save does not convince you well guess I will end the discussion there.



I stand by my opinion that there is no need to implement the disapproval decay the game provides all the necessary elements to prevent it.

I'd like to preface this by thanking you all for adding to this discussion, it's been more popular than I would've thought.

NewHorizon wrote:
They have the techs to research that reduce disapproval, until you get them the happiness buildings help a lot, and the first 2 are easy to get. I think the answer to this is already in the game you just have to decide that its worth researching.

Even then, if you play on a large enough map, you'll still encounter this problem, because technically expansion disapproval is infinite, while buildings that mitigate it are finite, you can only build a certain amount per planet.

LordShadow wrote:
In theory this suggestion makes sense, but in practice there's many factors that help you increase approval and counter the penalty. Besides the techs that directly reduce expansion disapproval, there's tax rate adjustments, approval improvements, approval hero traits, anomaly reductions, the occasional luxury resource and eventually terraformation options. With all those tools at your disposal, it's not long before your colonies are Ecstatic or at least Happy. Ultimately, the expansion disapproval mechanic is there merely to reduce the speed at which you expand across the galaxy, not to halt it permanently.

The problem is that expansion disapproval can eventually halt expansion, considering how many planets there could be, in relation to the amount of upgrades.

Draco18s wrote:
Just FYI:



The actual complaint in this post has to do with outposts receiving expansion disapproval which is a bug. If the OP were to save and quit his game and reload it, he'd find that that planet is happy. Same thing if he ends his turn.



That said:

Expansion disapproval should go down over time. Having looked at it in my last game, the number will rise over time even if you are not colonizing anything (assuming that you do not get the -22% techs) or might as well rise, as when a system ceases being an outpost it gains the disapproval value, but it itself counts towards that value. That is, colonies are upset that they are colonies! They were so much happier when they were simply a backwater outpost.

Sorry, but I'm not talking about the bug. The expansion disapproval mechanic plagues my home systems as well:



However not all my planets are like that, some have a better approval rating, due to planetary conditions and heroes. (I have my heroes on my industrial planets making ships)

Spero42 wrote:
I think what you are missing here is that happiness structures and techs are representing exactly what you're suggesting. Expansion Disapproval does go down over time, as you build the various happiness buildings and research the various techs.



It's unreasonable to expect a person to become happier with his life if it is unchanging. He may remain just as happy/unhappy, or he may get angrier that nothing has changed for the better. Your job, as emperor, is to make those changes in your citizens' lives which will make them happy.

Right, but after a generation or two people would calm down about expansion; they would accept the new systems as part of the empire, much like it has occurred in history (with colonies in the Americas and Africa, not solar systems)

Draco18s wrote:


Um. At what point does a galaxy-spanning empire become comfortable with the fact that it spans a galaxy? Probably 2 generations, all the people that grow up in this environment will consider this "normal" and while they may grow unhappy with more expansion, the existing expansion will not bother them.

See: any social issue ever. At one point in time public parks were poo-pooed because it was "socialism" and that was "bad for America." Same thing with public schools, public water, and public highways.

Exactly, since each turn is representative of one year, a period of 100 turns seems acceptable for a 'cooldown' period, where expansion disapproval stops for that given system.

Spero42 wrote:


These factors aren't going to go away over time by themselves. Instead, it's up to the government to either distract their citizens (Hey, infinite supermarkets! Awesome!), grant them more freedoms in order to compensate for the government's shortcomings (eg Corporeal Freedom), or by instituting government policies which somehow lessen these factors (the research techs).

You have a good point, however, it makes sense if it does go away over time. If you, your parents, and your grandparents all lived in the same conditions, you would think it is the norm. At first the internet was revolutionary, there were quite a few opponents to it, but now we have all gotten used to it, it is commonplace in our lives.

asmodin88 wrote:
the main problem, as i see it, is that currently it is impossible to end the game through annihilating your opponents, as you cannot destroy systems, only capture them, which will make your happieness become FUBAR even after having all the techs for it if you are playing on a huge map.



So from me a big +1 on this. I agree with the mechanics as they make a complete "rush conquer everything" tactic impossible. But i think it should be possible to slowly keep expanding your system through war and win the game through it.

If the decay period is long enough, the rush conquer everything tactic will still be impossible, while still allowing for expansion.

There are a total of 4 Technologies that reduce the impact of expansion disapproval by 22% each. That means with time you can colonize enough systems for it not to matter, as expansion disapproval is reduced by 88% in the end.



The expansion disapproval mechanic is there to punish players who expand to fast while not researching the necessary techs. As expanding is already very easy in the game, I see no reason to turn it into an expansion rush game with no late game. It is good that you systems start unhappy, if they didn't you'd simply expand all the time and keep expanding. There has to be a mechanic that punishes going wide too fast.