Velaux wrote:
I should add that it's imperative that the game has a glass cannon configuration that will always win, otherwise it would be possible to create two unkillable fleets and break the game

Why not have unkillable fleets at certain tech levels? It would create an interesting race to win by other objectives after both parties realize military victory is not possible.

Currently upkeep is a flat 1 Dust per CP, so there's no difference.

I realize this doesn't exactly clear up all balance issues, but I still want to mention that one advantage large, 'real' ships have over glass cannon garbage swarms is fleet upkeep. Production costs may be low on abundant Titanium-70 Destroyers but they still cost a dust every turn. A standing fleet of low-tech ships is going to cost you. In this particular aspect the Dreadnought outclasses everything else.

Taliesyn wrote:
If glass cannons can always win, then there's no point in making anything else.

Glass cannons die to cheaper glass cannons. You only want to make expensive glass cannons if you need to take out heavily defended fleets. It's the only way to do so, after all.

It should be important that glass cannons (which are cheap by their very nature) can cause casualties, though, approximately in proportion to their cost. A fleet of 20 glass cannons wiping out a fleet of 5 dreadnoughts is hilariously unbalanced. A fleet of 20 class cannons taking out 1-2 dreadnoughts is pretty balanced, cost-wise.

Well yeah, what I meant is that they have to be able to kill stuff. It's fine if an expensive glass cannon fleet can wipe anything out, though, because you can wipe out that fleet with a collection of garbage.

Velaux wrote:
I should add that it's imperative that the game has a glass cannon configuration that will always win, otherwise it would be possible to create two unkillable fleets and break the game

If glass cannons can always win, then there's no point in making anything else.



It should be important that glass cannons (which are cheap by their very nature) can cause casualties, though, approximately in proportion to their cost. A fleet of 20 glass cannons wiping out a fleet of 5 dreadnoughts is hilariously unbalanced. A fleet of 20 class cannons taking out 1-2 dreadnoughts is pretty balanced, cost-wise.

I should add that it's imperative that the game has a glass cannon configuration that will always win, otherwise it would be possible to create two unkillable fleets and break the game

Yeah, I guarantee if we're talking max tech, I (and many others who are more skilled than I am) can come up with a DD fleet that will beat the crap out of your DN fleet. Most (or all!) of the DD fleet may die as well, but that wasn't part of the challenge.



Edit:

100% destroyer fleet with +tonnage module, neutrino pulsion, and the rest on gluon disruptors, will punch through any conceivable defence.

Pretty much this. 22 of these WILL cause casualties.

Does repair even help that much for destroyers? A fleet of 15 gets +30% increase, which improves the heal rate from 10/turn to 13/turn. Hardly game-breaking. Isn't it still better to scrap damaged destroyers and build new? The repair module takes up the same tonnage as 4 weapons.

datupuki wrote:
Sorry to say there is no DD fleet you can dream up that can even damage a well made DN fleet. DN fleets rule from mid to end game.

That is an interesting claim. Can you give a mid game DN design specifically? Then somebody else can give a DD fleet which will damage it.

Ketobor wrote:
Created a new topic for repair discussion after doing a series of tests.



Now then, I am going to ask that you not debate 'what is better' here. Quite simply, destroyers are generally better right now. I have played many games of this, I have done the math, and it seems the community has mostly had the same experience. You can have fun with other designs, the computer is pretty easy, but that isn't the fundamental debate. Dreadnaughts have a use, but that difference isn't what this topic is for. I know this might seen unfair, but I will ask that you take those debates to the Destroyer thread.





If you want to discuss how combat should work, or get more accurate numbers on accuracy, either would fit better in this topic. I personally am interested if anyone has good ideas on what they think offense-defense interactions should be.

Sorry to say there is no DD fleet you can dream up that can even damage a well made DN fleet. DN fleets rule from mid to end game.

Yes, that's an in-depth look at why kinetics are garbage - at least while the combat model never ever goes past phase 2.

Ok, so I'm trying to put some of this together in my head and make sure I understand. Let me start with kinetics.



There are 4 turns per phase, and 3 phases per combat.



At long range (which is what we most care about), kinetics have 20% accuracy (please correct me if I'm wrong, I can't find that darn table anymore).



So a ship with 5 hard kinetic modules shoots 20 shots per turn. At 20% accuracy, 4 shots on average will make it to an enemy ship.

The layered hulls defense module negates 3 shots per turn.



So to scale these up, on average in long range, 15 hard kinetics modules will hit with 12 shots, which are negated by 4 layered hulls defense modules.



So the ratios for average negation are:



Modules: 15/4 (3.75 to 1)

Tons: 105 tons / 24 tons (4.375 to 1)

Industry: 5.625 to 1



If we expand that out through the tech, here are the general ratios. I did my best to estimate defense tech level to offense tech level.







The basic trend seems to be that over time, weapons start gaining advantage over defense in terms of pure effectiveness. However, cost wise, it also becomes more expensive to field weapons only. So weapons can create the best bang for the fleet, while defense provides better bang for the buck.



We can also gather that for kinetics are first glance, defense seems like a pretty good investment, at least at long range. If someone could provide me the accuracy tables for the weapons, I'd be happy to look at the numbers for medium and short range.

Ketobor wrote:
Best I can tell offensive boosts do not enhance the ability to bypass defenses - except in the case of Beams.

That's because beam defense is a direct 1:1 damage...thing.

That is, shields block X damage from all total beam hits.



Kinetics armor ignores shots regardless of what the shot's damage is (so boosting the damage doesn't help the attacker any).



And then there's the wonkiness with flak and missiles, but essentially does the same thing as deflectors.

Best I can tell offensive boosts do not enhance the ability to bypass defenses - except in the case of Beams.



This fact is one of the other great things beams have going for them.





I will be updating this guide within the next few days in a new post, pulling from the raw XML datas to inform. After modding becomes a bit easier, I will achieve more comprehensive testing. Right now my biggest problem with my understanding is that there is no proper clue to how missiles work, and if they work based on my understanding top Tier Flak is useless.

I am beginning to think that having beams fire every phase of a phase is wrong, they should instead fire on turns 3 and 1 of each phase with hits being recorded instantly. Kinetics could fire every turn but their inherent long range accuracy penalty should keep them from being overwhelming .



Heroes and ship experience are very unbalancing

I think the OP meant turn.

Thank you for posting this, it is good to know the numbers.

Detailed description and guide



it will be more interesting if you would like to add some screenshot/attachment

Ohoho, great thread. I'll have to read all the details I see. Thank you for posting these instructions!

OP I disagree that Dreadnoughts are bad ships.

If you don't want to continuously replenish your fleets then these heavy ships are a good option. But then again, when I play, I never have the issue of coming up against an even opponent, I'm always ahead in tech and therefore I'm more powerful.

I've tried all strategies and for me the best one is, 4 dreadnoughts and 3 cruisers that I use as support to heal my dreadnoughts. This seems to work extremely well, as I barely ever lose a ship or battle.