@ copperwire, there are 6-8 excellent science victory saves in the speed science thread I quoted two back.



@ marthnn, thanks for the breakdown. As you pointed out diversity systems improves dust without improving science, but without this, the ratio is 1:2. This is a huge factor in fast science wins, and this is why I divided science by 4 in my community mod.



So, for these huge values, we get +50% due to amoeba diplomats trait; +280% due to amoeba trait and building with 7 agreements; +3 routes and +290% due to hero bonus; +4 routes due to general buildings; and way high population.



In my corporate hero mod, I reduced the hero wit bonus to +5% per wit instead of +9%, which takes off 96% of the hero bonus, which I guess would take off about 33% of that income if that is a separate term. Is that right?



A pilgrim instead of amoeba with everything else the same would only get +30% per ally (which is still 210%, but less likely to have all seven allied with you). So maybe 25% less total income. Does that sound right?

davea wrote:
@ martinnn, thanks for the breakdown. As you pointed out diversity systems improves dust without improving science, but without this, the ratio is 1:2. This is a huge factor in fast science wins, and this is why I divided science by 4 in my community mod.

I agree that trade routes giving science is strange. Their main focus should be wealth, and while I agree it could connect scientific communities of different empires, that would be the role of a cooperation agreement, not a trade route.

davea wrote:
So, for these huge values, we get +50% due to amoeba diplomats trait; +280% due to amoeba trait and building with 7 agreements; +3 routes and +290% due to hero bonus; +4 routes due to general buildings; and way high population.



In my corporate hero mod, I reduced the hero wit bonus to +5% per wit instead of +9%, which takes off 96% of the hero bonus, which I guess would take off about 33% of that income if that is a separate term. Is that right?

As far as trade bonus is concerned, +50% for the amoeba diplomats trait, yes. +210% for the amoeba symbiosis trait, yes. +60% for improvements, yes. +291% for hero abilities, yes. Those are all added to represent the total Trade Bonus, in this case +611%. This means the trade income is increased by +611%. You can calculate this by multiplying the trade income by (1 + 6.11).



Trade bonus from hero is not a separate term, as far as I know. In the present example, reducing the trade bonus from hero abilities with -96% means the total Trade Bonus becomes +515%. This will reduce total trade gains by 15.7%. This is only affected by other sources of trade bonus, such as improvements and traits. A system with 10 pop and all improvements will also reduce its gains by 15.7%.

davea wrote:
A pilgrim instead of amoeba with everything else the same would only get +30% per ally (which is still 210%, but less likely to have all seven allied with you). So maybe 25% less total income. Does that sound right?

Pilgrim has a tech giving +30% trade bonus per ally on empire, yes. Assuming this bonus behaves like all other trade bonuses, this means pilgrims are less likely to have as many allies as amoeba have coop agreements. So the total Trade Bonus will be lower, say... -90%, so 521%. This means reducing hero abilities by -96% has a greater impact on the total Trade Bonus, reducing it to +425%. This is a reduction of 18.4% to the trade gains.







The trade gains equation has some distinct terms. From what I know of it right now, they are :

Population = SystemPop/5

Trade Bonus

Trade Distance Bonus

Trade Dust Bonus (applied to dust gains only)

Trade Science Multiplier = 2 (applied to science gains only)



Those terms get multiplied together to give the trade gains. I'm still missing something tho...





Edit : YES! GOT IT!



There's a separate term for the distance ratio. This works out when I cancel a coop agreement, and the ratios are all making sense. I'll give a complete equation soon enough.



Edit 2 : There it is :



[CODE]GAINS = POP * DIST * DIST_BONUS * BONUS * DUST_BONUS * SCIENCE_MULT * COOP_AGREE[/CODE]

The "POP" term represents the effect of your system total population. [CODE]POP = SystemPopulation/5[/CODE]

The "DIST" term represents the effect of the distance between the 2 trading systems. [CODE]DIST = 1 + 2*TradingDistance/GalaxyDiameter[/CODE]

The "DIST_BONUS" term represents the total trade distance bonuses. These currently come only from 2 improvements, for a total of +60%. [CODE]DIST_BONUS = 1 + TotalTradeDistanceBonuses[/CODE]

The "BONUS" term represents the total trade bonuses. These come from many sources : improvements, corporate hero abilities, faction traits, technologies giving some "diplomatic options". [CODE]BONUS = 1 + TotalTradeBonuses[/CODE]

The "DUST_BONUS" represents the total bonuses to trade dust gains. These currently come only from a single improvement, unique to the Amoeba and giving +10% per cooperation agreements signed. Of course, this term is only applied to the dust part of trade gains. [CODE]DUST_BONUS = 1 + TotalTradeDustBonuses[/CODE]

The "SCIENCE_MULT" term is only applied to the science part of trade gains. [CODE]SCIENCE_MULT = 2[/CODE]

The "COOP_AGREE" term represents the effects of a cooperation agreement on a trade route. It is only applied if the trade route is between empires with an agreement between them. This effect is -50% for the first 15 turns of the agreement, +0% for turns 15 to 30, and +25% for turns 30 and following. [CODE]COOP_AGREE = 1 + CoopAgreeEffect[/CODE]



Before I add this to the OP, I want it to be tested on some random games... Anyone wants to do it?

Great progress. I recommend again the save games in the speed science win thread. There is a pilgrim one, a sophon one, and also hissho and craver but those have less trade income.

davea wrote:
Great progress. I recommend again the save games in the speed science win thread. There is a pilgrim one, a sophon one, and also hissho and craver but those have less trade income.

I'm hesitant to do it myself. First, I want an outside source understanding this and confirming my finds. Second, my computer shut down while I was doing this, from CPU over-heating. I have a laptop with 1st gen i5 430M CPU with integrated graphics, meaning no graphics card. Even at the "fastest" setting, this can happen, but it runs smoothly most of the time. I can have the same problem running Halo 1, so...



Anyways. If I do it, this might take a while. Read a week or two.

To look into the system windows, I usually change the graphics to 1024x768 anyway so I can have other windows open, and you could also turn the quality level way down. Unlike other games, this doesn't require exit/restart, which is pretty neat.

I haven't done in-depth testing of this math, but it seems to hold when I play so I've updated the opening post. I hope to get more information more easily with the upcoming feature Trade Routes Sum-up.

The hardest part appears to be determining an accurate distance modifier, at least on spiral galaxies...but as best I can tell with "rough values" for distance, this appears to be holding up so far on the systems I have tested it in.

I have seen it mentioned in these forums that trade routes would set up themselves so as to maximize your income. However, this is NOT what I'm seeing : I see trade routes being affected to the last colonized systems, in fact resulting in usually the worst possible set up since the most important factor is population and last colonized systems tend to be the least populated.



It's also for this reason that I also doubt that the second variable - distance to the trade partner system your system is trading with - is taken into account for deciding which system will trade with which one.



You can see in this following game how this unexpected behavior has slowed down my early game :

Tradematons.zip

Of course this matters a lot less if your empire hasn't taken the traders and blockade runners traits, but it would be nice if this behavior was "fixed" to prefer your older systems as to make these kinds of 0 tax strategies more reliable.



Oh, and also the first post should probably be modified now that trade gives science:dust in the 0.5:1 ratio instead of 2:1.

NewHorizon wrote:
Question, how long does it take a trade route to establish? I thought it was instant but i seem to have caught some of my systems slacking. Assume all necessary requirements are met.

It really should be instant. If all necessary requirements are met, then perhaps there is no one left to trade with? The planets closet to trade with may have their routes filled, and any other places are out of range for trading with.

my understand is you need open boarders treaty as well..peace isnt enough. And I think the pilgrams dont need any special treaty so its different for them. I'm guessing carvers cant trade at all?

Peace is enough but what you need to discover is the systems and the other faction needs to discover yours as well.



Open borders help with the discovery process but is not required to establish the trade route itself.

gamingalife wrote:
what you need to discover is the systems and the other faction needs to discover yours as well.

Was that tested? The other faction needs to have discovered in some way your systems before YOU get trade routes with his systems?

I seem to remember as Amoeba I could get routes up with any far-away empire once peace was signed. I could be wrong, maybe they explored my systems behind my back. Sneaky bastards...

A couple things:



The trade partner does not need to have your system discovered, or a trade route available in the target system. You can have one-way trade routes.

Population is a far more important factor to yield than distance (your population, not theirs)

I agree that trade routes are one-way, they can't be otherwise since you can open a trade route with any friendly system, even freshly new outposts, and those don't have any trade improvements.

Milaha wrote:
Population is a far more important factor to yield than distance (your population, not theirs)

This would need to be tested reliably. In my current game, I did a quick check to see if it's possible. I set-up a new outpost (1 pop) next to one of my main systems (35 pop) (both about the same distance from everywhere) and built the same trade improvements. I even got the new system to ecstatic approval. Its trade routes gave 0 dust and 1 science, while in the other system it was 23 and 46. You appear to be right, population plays a big role in trade route value, and distance might be a minor factor. Raptor's FAQ isn't accurate on that part then.

is it possible for friendly empire (3 system) to trade with my 5 system at once??

bubblebobble wrote:
is it possible for friendly empire (3 system) to trade with my 5 system at once??

What do you mean? What do you want to know?



If it is possible for the friendly empire to open his trade routes to your 5 systems right away, instead of several turns later? It should be, if they know of your systems and have routes available.

If it is possible for the friendly empire to open his trade routes despite having less systems than you? Sure, he'll be able to open 5 routes total, while you will only have 3.



Note that for me, friendly means a peace treaty at the very least.

How about Amoeba? They have trade routes on every planet and an extra two on each homeworld. The only thing I can figure is that the program cherry picks the ones you have improved or selects by population. I don't know for sure. Can someone clarify please?

Ohh trade route masters, I have a quesiton:



Are trade routes a one to one thing? Like if I have more possible trade routes than my trading partner, will I have excess unfilled trade routes?

ben_caleb wrote:
How about Amoeba? They have trade routes on every planet and an extra two on each homeworld. The only thing I can figure is that the program cherry picks the ones you have improved or selects by population. I don't know for sure. Can someone clarify please?

Nobody knows. Maybe someone will look into it after 4th july release. Maybe me...

Palau wrote:
Ohh trade route masters, I have a quesiton:



Are trade routes a one to one thing? Like if I have more possible trade routes than my trading partner, will I have excess unfilled trade routes?

Trade routes are one-way, meaning your routes aren't affected by the others. To open your trade route, your friend doesn't need to open his.



If you improved your systems and had 25 available trade routes, all you'd need is 25 friendly systems to trade with.

ben_caleb wrote:
The only thing I can figure is that the program cherry picks the ones you have improved or selects by population. I don't know for sure. Can someone clarify please?

As far as I can tell the game will select whatever route setup will give the best yield considering distance, pop, improvements, and heroes. I have repeatedly seen the game bypass a system with a % based improvement in it for a significantly higher pop system without one, but also seen a lower pop system steal a higher pop system's route when I finished a % based improvement or stationed a hero there.

Palau wrote:
Ohh trade route masters, I have a quesiton:



Are trade routes a one to one thing? Like if I have more possible trade routes than my trading partner, will I have excess unfilled trade routes?

To expand on the already excellent answer by Marthnn. If you have 25 available routes in your systems but your friend only has 20 systems, you will have 5 unfilled routes. The number of trade routes your friend has available is completely irrelevant to you, all you care about is the number of systems he has.