I didn't see a thread for discussing the Automaton industry stacking, so here are my thoughts:



I like not having to waste production when a planet temporarily has nothing to build. This is definitely advantageous when compared to simply queing ships, or devoting to science or dust, as it provides flexibility. Once stacks are maxed out, then it makes more sense to devote to an alternative, as a potential pool of action allows faster reaction to something which would require response (invasion, for example).



The major downside I see lto this is not fully understanding how to use it to your advantage. While I haven't played an almost complete or finished a game with the Automatons, I like what I see, but I willneed to play more before I can utilize this trait better.



Anyone here have anything to add as to ways to use the stacking? Any suggestions on how I could utilize this, and the default build of the Automatons?



Also,looking forward to new ship designs for them, should and when they come.

While I can some tactical advantage of stacking overproduction, I don't quite understand how it's significantly better than a flat industry bonus trait (e.g. +10%). Please share your insights.

It seems the "optimal" way to use the stacking is to keep all your build queues empty for four turns; then on the fifth turn, add six turns worth of production (multiple ships, buildings, etc); then on the sixth turn, clean out all the build queues again. Keep notes on paper about what your next set of builds for that system will be.

jddbeyondthesky wrote:
Once stacks are maxed out, then it makes more sense to devote to an alternative, as a potential pool of action allows faster reaction to something which would require response (invasion, for example).

Stacked industry have an interest rate applied to it every turn. If you max out the stack before switching to conversion, any interest will be lost, since conversions only apply to regular, current turn production.



To maximize your interests, you need to stay close to max stacks, but keep in mind that you then have to build stuff with it. You can get 2-3 turns of production stacked, and let interests max it while you use a conversion. Or you can do as davea suggested, near-full your stack before building anything. It's hard to optimize, but it helps if you plan ahead in your mind. Of course, with giant empires this won't be very practical... Automatons seem to be great with a few mega-systems, avoiding smaller ones.



A major advantage to industry stacking is also the ability to build a newly discovered improvement instantly, instead of waiting 4-5 turns while you build it. Industry stacking works best in well-established systems, since new ones have a lot of improvements to build and don't really get downtime to stack anything.

Answering my own question here--I suppose the advantage of interest on stacked industry vs. flat percentage bonus is that the former is compounded:

Suppose X industry

1. flat 20% bonus, total industry at end of round Y is: Y * ( X * 1.2 )

2. 20% interest (after the tech upgrade), total at end of round Y is: X * 1.2 ^ Y + X * 1.2 ^ Y-1 + X * 1.2 ^ Y-3, where Y > 0 (what's the equation for this?)



If X = 1, at beginning of round 5 (Y = 4)

1. 4.8

2. 2.0736 + 1.728 + 1.44 + 1.2 = 6.4416



Please correct, comment.

Marthnn wrote:
Industry stacking works best in well-established systems, since new ones have a lot of improvements to build and don't really get downtime to stack anything.

I don't agree. New ones with a lot of improvements to build can benefit just as much. Previously, you could put a full queue of 6-8 buildings onto the new system and just wait. But now, you can get much faster builds by writing down your build order on paper; if the next building to be built will increase industry build it right away; otherwise keep the build queue empty for four turns; on the fifth turn, queue the next 2-3 buildings from your paper list; on the sixth turn, make sure the queue is clear. Otherwise you are not getting the full effect of compounded interest.

Automatons are much stronger if you use the governors who do much better than pre-patch anyways. ^^



They automatically stack as long as

a) is needed to build the next building in 1 turn

b) 4 turns if the building is very expensive

c) 2 turns before going to a conversion so it can benefit from Interest



I've also made a mod that can simulate the behaviour of building nothing by building a dummy-conversion that converts to the stack and will automatically be moved down in the queue once the stack is greater than an amount that would you make risk losing some interest.

The governors have been updated to understand stacking, and they leave the build queues empty?? Outstanding.

Yes, they do! Don't tell me you haven't tried that out yourself? ^^



Meedoc announced that they were doing that in the 1.0.23-Thread when I asked why I can't select the Automatons as opponents. Obviously there was no mention for it in the Patch notes, tough.

Ail wrote:
Yes, they do! Don't tell me you haven't tried that out yourself?

I have not played 1.0.22+. But, Total War Shogun 2 is still pretty fun.

Ail wrote:
Automatons are much stronger if you use the governors who do much better than pre-patch anyways. ^^



They automatically stack as long as

a) is needed to build the next building in 1 turn

b) 4 turns if the building is very expensive

c) 2 turns before going to a conversion so it can benefit from Interest



I've also made a mod that can simulate the behaviour of building nothing by building a dummy-conversion that converts to the stack and will automatically be moved down in the queue once the stack is greater than an amount that would you make risk losing some interest.

wow, so I can almost not play the game and win.

stilz wrote:
While I can some tactical advantage of stacking overproduction, I don't quite understand how it's significantly better than a flat industry bonus trait (e.g. +10%). Please share your insights.

Well, the interest can go up to +100% of your basic industry...

Stated differently, the question is, we could compute a percentage (not 10%, but it is a fixed computable value) of flat industry boost which would be identical to the interest effect. What is the difference between this flat boost, and the current "earn interest if build queue is empty" mechanic? The answer is, the current mechanic is more work.

davea wrote:
Stated differently, the question is, we could compute a percentage (not 10%, but it is a fixed computable value) of flat industry boost which would be identical to the interest effect. What is the difference between this flat boost, and the current "earn interest if build queue is empty" mechanic? The answer is, the current mechanic is more work.

It may be more work, but I find it an intriguing way to play with. A flat value would have the same effect, given the low turn number for interest. If compounding and a long term existed, there would be more to it than a flat rate could justifiably produce. The problem ther eis balanced implimentation.

jddbeyondthesky wrote:
It may be more work, but I find it an intriguing way to play with. A flat value would have the same effect, given the low turn number for interest. If compounding and a long term existed, there would be more to it than a flat rate could justifiably produce. The problem ther eis balanced implimentation.

Woah!! I think you have just inadvertantly suggested the best possible fix for the industry stacking in my opinion.

I have been trying to think of some way they can change it to make the industry stacking different, balanced and competitive to the craver's +25%.

Right now the automaton affinity in my opinion is worse than a flat +25% industry in every way.... and cravers are soooooooooooo much more than just industry lol (The locust points won't kick in as a downside untill turn 80, way too late to matter).



Suggested changes (numbers can be changed around):

-Industry stacks for 50 turns, instead of current 5.

-Decrease interest to like 4%, after tech interest to like 10%

-Usage of stored industry per turn is maxed at 3*current production or 2 projects, whichever is higher. This is so you can't store up massive amounts of industry as to rushbuild huge fleets. That would essentially be storing pseudo-fleets that pay no upkeep.



This change would:

-Make it better in some situations than a flat +25% from cravers

-Reduce micro, you won't have to use production every 4 turns in order to not waste production completely (since not even using ind->dust normally). This is huge in MP.



Balance considerations, why I think this is still balanced:

- Its true that if you manage to store up say 40 turns of production, the interest rate would generate essentially +160% (or +400% after tech) more production per turn but there are some considerations.

-Firstly, in a 4x game, growth is exponential, production used 40 turns ago is worth alot more than production now. This is easily seen in extreme usefulness of Civil Engineer hero ability; the +15 production at start is insane, later its nothing.

-It actually takes more than 40 actual turns to save up 40 turns of current production; this is because production 40 turns ago on that system should be alot lower, the first 10 turns of production you saved may well be worth less than what you saved on the 30th turn by itself, of course the interest you are getting while waiting does reduce this effect a little, but not enough.



People who play multiplayer often will be able to vouch that I have a pretty good understanding of the game. And that I don't only use offensive zerg tactics =).

Thanks for reading this wall of text.