Terraforming

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Sep 28, 2012, 1:52:47 AM

Now go re-read my post with the edit in place.

werewolf_nr

Adamantian

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

werewolf_nr

Adamantian

35 300g2g pts

13 years ago

Oct 16, 2012, 10:56:50 PM

Your patience in explaining that conventional wisdom is Endless. Thanks for the info and proving me wrong too

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Oct 11, 2012, 6:23:12 AM

For those waiting on that spreadsheet I mentioned, it's done and posted here. /#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14028-planetary-fids-output-spreadsheet

Zaflis wrote:

edit: +2 found, it's custom racial "Crowded planets", +2 tiny, +2 small, +1 medium.

That should make jungle planet without moon:

tiny 4 +1+2 +2 +2 = 11 (+1 moon = 12)

small 5 +1+2 +1 +2 = 11 (+1 moon = 12)

medium 6 +1+2 +0 +1 = 10 (+1 moon = 11)

You're correct, I added the population numbers incorrectly. However, that problem is fixed in the spreadsheet, in part by not including the Crowded Planets trait or any other trait for that matter.

Zaflis

Newcomer

Zaflis

Newcomer

13 years ago

Oct 8, 2012, 2:36:25 PM

I don't get the formula on planet population... I can confirm in game that small jungle planet with no moon has 11 pop. It has bonuses from system improvements: +1, +1, +2. Base pop on that kind of planet is 5, so to add that all up, there is mysterious +2 from somewhere.

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Planet

But at the same time it makes your table seem off aswell, with moon it should have 11 pop, and medium should have 11 aswell. Because the base on tiny-medium is 4-6, and bonus from Endothermic structures goes +2, +1, 0.

edit: +2 found, it's custom racial "Crowded planets", +2 tiny, +2 small, +1 medium.

That should make jungle planet without moon:

tiny 4 +1+2 +2 +2 = 11 (+1 moon = 12)

small 5 +1+2 +1 +2 = 11 (+1 moon = 12)

medium 6 +1+2 +0 +1 = 10 (+1 moon = 11)

Franwax

Newcomer

Franwax

Newcomer

13 years ago

Oct 7, 2012, 11:56:16 AM

Yes I'm aware of that.. I was writing in haste and somehow thought that the fixed bonus at system level might change the deal a bit, for small/tiny planets at least, but I realize it's not the case.

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Oct 7, 2012, 12:46:04 AM

It only takes 2 food per pop to maintain the population, so having a base 3 food per pop means you'll always have a surplus even without the +food per pop and +% food improvements.

Franwax

Newcomer

Franwax

Newcomer

13 years ago

Oct 6, 2012, 1:48:00 PM

That's very interesting...

One question on the Food -> Ind conversion. Since Jungle Planet is much more populated that the Lava one, this particular improvement might actually be marginally more beneficial to the Lava planets, as Jungle planets will require more food for pop upkeep, therefore netting less surplus (that is because some improvements - and heroes abilities - add a sizable fix amount of Food at system level)...? Or maybe the +3/pop headstart on the Jungle takes care of that? Deserves to be tested...

In any case, more population having other benefits (not least of which adding to other FIDS), I definitely see the point of terraforming (or Junglaforming) all you can.

As was noted, though, this does take some time. First to acquire the technology, then to build all relevant improvements (the Food -> Ind one is, as I remember, particularly costly; and the late game Food improvements have a hefty upkeep cost). Sometimes, it's just easier to research +CP and military technologies and conquer the nicely terraformed systems that other factions have kindly prepared for you

Just need to do that before they shoot to far ahead of you in overall FIDS. With good timing, you can make it so that they have done all the hard work for you and you just reap the benefits.

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Oct 6, 2012, 12:59:01 PM

Nope, but here ya go.

With explored moon, all +pop improvements, Crowded Planets 2 trait, Heavy Isotope Refineries, Interplanetary Transport Network and 3-D Replication plants exploitation. Does not include Adaptive Industrial Systems, because that would necessitate adding all the +food improvements, which can wait for a spreadsheet.

Tiny +8 pop

Lava 9 pop 141.6 industry.

Desert 10 pop 132.0 industry.

Tundra 11 pop 117.6 industry.

Jungle 12 pop 141.6 industry.

Small +6 pop

Lava 8 pop 127.2 industry.

Desert 9 pop 120.0 industry.

Tundra 10 pop 108.0 industry.

Jungle 11 pop 130.8 industry.

Medium +4 pop

Lava 7 pop 112.8 industry.

Desert 8 pop 108.0 industry.

Tundra 9 pop 98.4 industry.

Jungle 10 pop 120.0 industry.

Large +4 pop

Lava 8 pop 127.2 industry.

Desert 9 pop 120.0 industry.

Tundra 11 pop 117.6 industry.

Jungle 12 pop 129.8 industry.

Huge +4 pop

Lava 8 pop 127.2 industry.

Desert 10 pop 132.0 industry.

Tundra 12 pop 127.2 industry.

Jungle 14 pop 163.2 industry.

As you can see, without adding in the food to industry conversion and all the food that would get converted, in all cases except tiny, Jungle ends up as the best production planet. On tiny planets Lava ties with Jungle. However, since both Lava and Jungle can have the same amount of addition +food per pop from improvements and Jungle starts 3 food per pop to Lava's 0 food per pop, Jungle would take the lead with the food to industry conversion on tiny planets as well.

Firstborn98

Newcomer

Firstborn98

Newcomer

13 years ago

Oct 6, 2012, 10:53:53 AM

Im just curious does your math take into consideration bonuses from population improvements and how if at all differnt they would be.

daitotsu

Newcomer

daitotsu

Newcomer

13 years ago

Oct 5, 2012, 4:18:32 PM

Monthar wrote:
Hissho, where? There are no Hissho here. Oh, wait, you caught a glimpse of my latest experiment in camouflage.

Yes, my math is accurate. Perhaps I'll make up a spreadsheet at some point to show all the FIDS for all planet types with all the exploits and improvements. That is if I can ever break away from trying to beat Endless difficulty long enough to do so.

This Hissho would be most interested in this 'spreadsheet' you speak of Sophon

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Sep 29, 2012, 4:01:07 AM

Hissho, where? There are no Hissho here. Oh, wait, you caught a glimpse of my latest experiment in camouflage.

Yes, my math is accurate. Perhaps I'll make up a spreadsheet at some point to show all the FIDS for all planet types with all the exploits and improvements. That is if I can ever break away from trying to beat Endless difficulty long enough to do so.

Marthnn

Academy

Marthnn

Academy

17 200g2g pts

13 years ago

Sep 29, 2012, 1:23:41 AM

Population makes all the difference.

Population is life.

Life is hope.

Hope can move mountains,

Drain oceans,

Give warmth to your soul in freezing tundras,

And render scorching desert heat bearable.

As long as one day, someone accomplishes the improbable :

Terraform the planet you live on,

Change its climate,

Its whole environment...

To be fit for life.

For life is hope.

Lava planets may very well give the most industry PER POP. But getting to max pop is easy enough that we can assume you do achieved it in a reasonable time.

Construction of improvements and ships requires fixed amounts of industry, so you will want to get the most industry IN SYSTEM, not PER POP. You can do the math yourself, or trust people like Monthar that did the math already. I trust Monthar. He seems to be honest and knowledgeable (despite his Hissho avatar).

Besides, FIDS also includes some F, D and S. Are those not worth anything to you? Lava planets are Industry and nothing else. No Science. Little Dust. No Food, so no growth. No life. No hope.

My favorite planet type is Tundra. Naturally gives some

, good

, the

exploitation gives more of it to Tundra, and a lot of system improvements have Tundra-specific bonuses, including for

. Also, you can terraform to this planet type during mid-game, while Jungle or Terran need to wait for late-game.

GJDriessen

Newcomer

GJDriessen

Newcomer

13 years ago

Sep 5, 2012, 8:06:20 PM

Does terraforming always result in extra FDIS for the planet, or does it just replace the planet type with another one.

For example, if I terraform an artic planet to a lava planet, do I lose the +1 food per pop?

Thanks for answering!

Fenrakk101

Oddity

Bridge Arsonist

Fenrakk101

Oddity

13 years ago

Sep 28, 2012, 1:36:02 AM

Monthar wrote:
No, I purposely left out system improvements, because all the improvements that boost industry work exactly the same on all planet types. Therefore they make no difference in this comparison. Any of them that add a percentage bonus only makes the other planets even better than Lava.

Interplanetary Transport Network:

+2

on lava

+1

on Asteroids, Desert, Arctic, Tundra

+20%

on System

I see no mention of Jungle here, and Lava gets a pretty nice buff there.

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Sep 28, 2012, 1:18:56 AM

No, I purposely left out system improvements, because all the improvements that boost industry work exactly the same on all planet types. Therefore they make no difference in this comparison. Any of them that add a percentage bonus only makes the other planets even better than Lava.

Edit: Ok, I misremembered that there are planet specific bonuses on two improvements that every race can build. So let's add these to the list.

Heavy Isotope Refineries

+10 Industry on Star System

+1 Industry per Population on Desert, Arctic, Arid, Tundra

Interplanetary Transport Network

+2 Industry per Population on Lava

+1 Industry per Population on Asteroids, Desert, Arctic, Tundra

+20% Industry on Star System

With this as the only planet in the system and both of these improvements built here are the totals.

Tiny

Lava 26.4 total industry.

Desert 36 total industry.

Tundra 40.8 total industry.

Jungle 55.2 total industry.

Small

Lava 28.8 total industry.

Desert 48 total industry.

Tundra 50.4 total industry.

Jungle 66 total industry.

Medium

Lava 55.2 total industry.

Desert 60 total industry.

Tundra 60 total industry.

Jungle 76.8 total industry.

Large

Lava 64.8 total industry.

Desert 72 total industry.

Tundra 79.2 total industry.

Jungle 98.4 total industry.

Huge

Lava 64.8 total industry.

Desert 84 total industry.

Tundra 88.8 total industry.

Jungle 120 total industry.

With these two improvements built in all cases Lava is the worst planet type of industry.

Fenrakk101

Oddity

Bridge Arsonist

Fenrakk101

Oddity

13 years ago

Sep 28, 2012, 12:56:57 AM

Monthar wrote:
Without any of the +pop buildings/anomalies

Huge Lava is only 4 pop. With 3-D Replication plants exploitation that's +3 planet +3 Lava and base +4 is 10 industry per pop for a total of 40 industry.

Huge Jungle is 10 pop. With 3-D Replication plants exploitation that's +3 planet +2 Jungle and base +4 is 9 industry per pop for a total of 90 industry.

This means the jungle 2.25 times the industry of leaving the planet as lava. Therefore, no Lava is NOT the best at industry.

You forgot system improvements.

Monthar

Old Timer

Monthar

Old Timer

13 years ago

Sep 28, 2012, 12:55:25 AM

Without any of the +pop buildings/anomalies

Huge Lava is only 4 pop. With 3-D Replication plants exploitation that's +3 planet +3 Lava and base +4 is 10 industry per pop for a total of 40 industry.

Huge Jungle is 10 pop. With 3-D Replication plants exploitation that's +3 planet +2 Jungle and base +4 is 9 industry per pop for a total of 90 industry.

This means the jungle 2.25 times the industry of leaving the planet as lava. Therefore, no Lava is NOT the best at industry.

Edit: Just for completeness let's compare Desert, Tundra and other planet sizes as well. Again with the 3-D Replication exploit.

Huge Desert is 6 pop. +3 planet & +5 base is 8 industry per pop for a total of 48 industry. The exploit only gives extra boosts for Lava, Tundra, Jungle and Methane, yet Desert still ends up with more total industry than Lava.

Huge Tundra is 8 pop. +3 Planet, +2 Tundra & base +1 is 6 industry per pop for a total of 48 industry. Yes this is the same as Desert, but you only have -5 approval instead of -10 as well more food, dust and science per pop.

[CODE] Tiny Small Medium Large Huge

Lava 1 2 3 4 4

Desert 2 3 4 5 6

Tundra 3 4 5 7 8

Jungle 4 5 6 8 10 [/CODE]

Tiny

Lava 10 industry.

Desert 16 industry.

Tundra 18 industry.

Jungle 36 industry.

Small

Lava 20 industry.

Desert 24 industry.

Tundra 24 industry.

Jungle 45 industry.

Medium

Lava 30 industry.

Desert 32 industry.

Tundra 30 industry.

Jungle 54 industry.

Large

Lava 40 industry.

Desert 40 industry.

Tundra 42 industry.

Jungle 72 industry.

As you can see, in every case except medium sized planets, Lava is the worst total industry. Even at medium it only ties with Tundra for 3rd place.

Fenrakk101

Oddity

Bridge Arsonist

Fenrakk101

Oddity

13 years ago

Sep 27, 2012, 11:08:12 PM

Ail wrote:
A Lava planet is NOT the best industrial-Type you can get.

Yes, it is. They stack much, much better with Exploitations and System Improvements. Unless it's the only planet in the system, or if you can't afford any more improvements, Lavas are the best planets for Industry.

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

8 400g2g pts

13 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 7:17:22 PM

Only the Tier 1 planets are worth leaving as they are.

A Lava planet is NOT the best industrial-Type you can get.

Alone the circumstance that they lack maximum population and reduce approval is enough. But now consider the building that turns food into industry!

Lava with base industry of 4+6 from exploit = 10 vs. jungle with base industry of 4+5foodx2 from a building converted to industry from a building = 14 just as terran with base industry 2+6x2 = 14

Now factor in all the other things where these planets are flatout better and you see there's no reason to not terraform... unless we're talking about some 1-planet-system and it would take you longer to terraform than the game will last to end of course.

arithon

Newcomer

arithon

Newcomer

13 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 4:44:59 PM

What planets are worth leaving as they are then? Some of the "bad" ones also have the highest numbers in certain factors....is it just simply better to have everything terraformed to terran, ocean, or jungle because overall they are better, strong all around? I mean usually a Lava planet will be the best industrial type you can get...

raccoon_tof

Auriga Remnant

raccoon_tof

Auriga Remnant

29 500g2g pts

13 years ago

Sep 16, 2012, 9:05:28 PM

It's not just the faction borders that matter from terraforming population explosion either, the extra FIDS produced on the better planets is a far more significant factor. Once the "terraforming race" begins, you kinda have to keep up or be left behind anyway, regardless of faction borders - even if they are 50 parsecs away, their FIDS production will quickly outstrip yours if they have a collection of lush terran/jungle/ocean planets for all their planets with full population boosters, and you are still working away with your arctic and desert planets...

iiyonic

Newcomer

iiyonic

Newcomer

6 000g2g pts

13 years ago

Sep 16, 2012, 8:41:31 AM

According to my observations, the ai is overwhelmingly changing every planet to terran in the endgame. The resulting population grow will push their borders beyond yours and in the end engulf your empire quite easily. This is really discomforting as the only solution to this is to also compete in the terraforming race.

volkanos

Fanatic

volkanos

Fanatic

12 300g2g pts

13 years ago

Sep 6, 2012, 1:33:05 AM

The FIDS values always change when you terraform planets, and those changes can be both positive or negative. In the case you've presented, the planet would lose its food bonus, but will also increase its production.

Fenrakk101

Oddity

Bridge Arsonist

Fenrakk101

Oddity

13 years ago

Sep 5, 2012, 8:14:43 PM

Yes, you lose the FIDS and replace them with the new planet type.

Click here to login

Comment

Characters : 0