Hi!



I'm new here, bought the game+expansion a few days ago.



I like the game a lot, my only problem is that I have no idea how combat figures add up. I've read the wiki, but it still doesn't make much sense, expect from the advice that melee kinectics is best.



For example, I have a 1200 hp x2 hull weakness ship (don't know what it's called) in a system, with 5 level 2 deflect and 5 level 2 shield, which gives me 100 "fist symbols" in the overview. I also have 4 lvl 2 beam which shows 120 fists.



I encountered a pirate fleet with several 450 hp ships with no defence, but 45 kinetic "fists" and 45 beam fists.



Now in combat I get shot to pieces without a chance, albeit my defence numbers are twice as high as their offensive capabilities. I don't even do damage, and have no idea why.



thanks,

Check out Affinity's guide to Disharmony in the strategy subforum above - that should help.



It sounds like your ships have too much defense, and not enough offense.

On a Cruiser, I usually put 2 of each defense for each type.

Set your ranges to Melee for projectiles, medium for beams, and long for missiles. (also gives you a little more room for weapons, and seems to work the best)

The specific weapon is up to you (spread out or concentrated), just fill the ship up.

You also may wish to add support modules (Power, extra tonnage, and possibly repair modules)

Some decrease defense modules and use armor.

Hope this helps!

You don't provide enough information to identify exactly what is occurring, but I can extrapolate some of it.

Your ship has 4 level 2 beams of some range, probably medium.

The Pirates have 3 level 1 beams and 3 level 1 kinetics, probably melee range. (6 guns)

There are probably 4-8 pirates, which means you are being shot by 32-48 guns each doing ~60 damage per shot.



Your defense is 5 level 2 deflection (300 defense each * 5 modules / 2 Hullweakness) = 750, your ship has an effective health of 1200*8.5 = 10200 against kinetics.

Your defense is 5 level 2 shield (200 defense each * 5 modules / 2 Hullweakness) = 500, your ship has an effective health of 1200*6 = 7200 against beams.

You'll also get the passive benefits of those defense, but that's negligible.

The pirates have no defense, so they have effective health of 450.



Long Range Phase, Round 1

Pirates shoot doing (32-48 modules) * 60 = ~2000-3000 damage. Accuracy and EvasionDisorientation drop this to ~ 1500-2000 damage

Your weapons don't fire until rounds 2 & 4.

Pirates shoot doing (32-48 modules) * 60 = ~2000-3000 damage. Accuracy and EvasionDisorientation drop this to ~ 1500-2000 damage

Your weapons now fire doing 4 modules * 337 damage * (.85 accuracy *.33 penalty for long range - .50 evasion (minimum of 10% chance to hit)) = ~ 125 damage

....

At the end of the Long Range Phase the pirates have dealt 6000-8000 damage, which may be enough to kill you. You, on the other hand have, maybe almost killed one pirate.

Watching the battle play and seeing the result after each round should also give you a better idea of what's going on. They are dealing 1500-2000% more damage than you are.



The solution?

Build destroyers with more guns and less defenses.

Don't fight battles where you are outnumbered based upon CP. They had 800% more guns than you.

When I say that short range kinetics are the king, I really mean it.

The mechanics are odd and they are going to change with the next patch. Use lots of melee kinetics and don't get attached to any of your ship crews.

As you get more familiar you'll probably experiment with more defensive hulls, but always compare their combat effectiveness against your good ole el cheapo full melee kinetic destroyer.

I think the Space 4X crowd's obsession with ship-building is a big part of the reason the combat sytems often end up obtuse and/or broken.

Compared to the fixed unit types with the odd simple buff like the Civ series they're a nightmare to balance.



edit: I know it'll never happen, and I enjoy building space ships as much as the next player, but if each Module upgrade in the War tech-tree was replaced with a new unit unlock that had its own dev-defined strengths and weaknesses some genuine combined arms tactics could be forced in to game.

Some Affinity-based uniques would add flavour.

thuvian wrote:
You don't provide enough information to identify exactly what is occurring, but I can extrapolate some of it.

Your ship has 4 level 2 beams of some range, probably medium.

The Pirates have 3 level 1 beams and 3 level 1 kinetics, probably melee range. (6 guns)

There are probably 4-8 pirates, which means you are being shot by 32-48 guns each doing ~60 damage per shot.



Your defense is 5 level 2 deflection (300 defense each * 5 modules / 2 Hullweakness) = 750, your ship has an effective health of 1200*8.5 = 10200 against kinetics.

Your defense is 5 level 2 shield (200 defense each * 5 modules / 2 Hullweakness) = 500, your ship has an effective health of 1200*6 = 7200 against beams.

You'll also get the passive benefits of those defense, but that's negligible.

The pirates have no defense, so they have effective health of 450.



Long Range Phase, Round 1

Pirates shoot doing (32-48 modules) * 60 = ~2000-3000 damage. Accuracy and EvasionDisorientation drop this to ~ 1500-2000 damage

Your weapons don't fire until rounds 2 & 4.

Pirates shoot doing (32-48 modules) * 60 = ~2000-3000 damage. Accuracy and EvasionDisorientation drop this to ~ 1500-2000 damage

Your weapons now fire doing 4 modules * 337 damage * (.85 accuracy *.33 penalty for long range - .50 evasion (minimum of 10% chance to hit)) = ~ 125 damage

....

At the end of the Long Range Phase the pirates have dealt 6000-8000 damage, which may be enough to kill you. You, on the other hand have, maybe almost killed one pirate.

Watching the battle play and seeing the result after each round should also give you a better idea of what's going on. They are dealing 1500-2000% more damage than you are.



The solution?

Build destroyers with more guns and less defenses.

Don't fight battles where you are outnumbered based upon CP. They had 800% more guns than you.

When I say that short range kinetics are the king, I really mean it.

The mechanics are odd and they are going to change with the next patch. Use lots of melee kinetics and don't get attached to any of your ship crews.

As you get more familiar you'll probably experiment with more defensive hulls, but always compare their combat effectiveness against your good ole el cheapo full melee kinetic destroyer.

Thanks for the elaborate answer!



about the damage formula from the wiki: the defense value is not the number of fists (i.e. 3 lvl 2 deflect giving me 60 "fists") but instead the defense value from the description? That changes things quite a bit....

Yeah, the "fist-symbol" is just a way to measure how many of which modules you have. It could be replaced by Average Damage Dealt per Combat against 0 defense ships and Average Effective Health and everyone would be happier.



You might take a look at Sword of the Stars 1 if you are interested into unique weapons with unique balance effects. While the game does have flaws, it also has massive rail guns that can literally knock ships into the gravity well of a planet causing them to crash into the planet killing themselves AND damaging the planet at the same time.