Torpedo's how do you beat them?

Beefhater

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 29, 2012, 1:48:57 PM

Kyu wrote:
the flak as a viable counter point can be rendered moot by the aggressor teching into multiple, or all, weapon types.

missiles also have a single major drawback, you can always retreat without taking damage. If your opponent has been auto-ing everything and not paying attention, if you have beams/kinetics you can use offensive retreat safely.

i had once the same strategy but to many of my retreat tries failed and on this way i loss more ships as if i fight against them on the normal way

Gyomb

Digital Librarian

Gyomb

Digital Librarian

24 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 22, 2012, 11:32:17 AM

ZumboPrime wrote:
Your retreats fail when you have no friendly or neutral systems to retreat to. If you're in the middle of enemy territory and haven't captured any systems yet, you can't retreat. You're just giving the enemy a free victory and sacrificing your ships.

Well, it's probably true but it's not the only situation where retreat=sacrificing a fleet. I remember at least one exemple where my fleet had cleary two eligible systems where to flee and got destroyed anyway without sustaining any dommage during the battle … So be careful with the retreat it can be tricky.

PS : it was pre-Polaris.

ZumboPrime

Confirmed

Disclaimer: text above may or may be complete nonsense.

ZumboPrime

Confirmed

22 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 17, 2012, 11:31:43 PM

maur4395 wrote:
I personally haven't ever had it fail but I personally use energy weapons more than missles since they seem to be much more effective in all phases. But keeping ahead in flak is important, and as far as flak shield ships are concerned I am almost positive that would work. Flak is centered on ships that have the modules so I doubt it would help your 'heavy' hitters. That is, in the current battle model.

Your retreats fail when you have no friendly or neutral systems to retreat to. If you're in the middle of enemy territory and haven't captured any systems yet, you can't retreat. You're just giving the enemy a free victory and sacrificing your ships.

The_Doctor

Sophon

The_Doctor

Sophon

12 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 16, 2012, 11:18:50 PM

Good flak, is all I can say.

I've never yet been in a situation (although wrt multiplayer haven't done much, to be fair) where I can't outfit my ships with enough high-quality flak... Concentrate enough of it, and it makes you virtually immune to missiles and torpedoes - whilst Kinetics and Beams will consistently do some damage even on up-armoured/shielded opponents, flak of the same amount has the capacity to entirely negate the damage done by missiles by destroying them before you even hit you.

Couple that with Camouflage, or Ultimate Defence, or accuracy sabotage and - against AI at least - I've built fleets that are entirely immune to damage by one missile-heavy faction without really having to invest overwhelmingly in flak research...

Mr.Spartan126

Old Survivor

Mr.Spartan126

Old Survivor

12 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 12, 2012, 7:49:49 PM

I make ships with well rounded defenses and adjust them according to what the enemy is planning so that if you are lacking an area, you are not completely destroyed because I had a little bit of each.

1alexey

Newcomer

1alexey

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 11:03:39 AM

Beam cruisers beat missle spam.

The point is, you build cruisers with ~4-6-8 beams or missles(better a mix of two types of cruisers in your fleet) and all the rest is armour, in the entering phase, use barrier or missle destruction/ camoflage.

Your cruiser will survive a single salvo of 2 destroyers-glass cannons if at equal tech(and especially if you have the HP-and XP-increasing facilities), and will destroy 1 or 2 of them in the long range phase already, then you use repair card, and your cruiser regens 50% HP(10% per firing round*3+ 20% repair card) before next missle salvo will hit and kills the remaining destroyer, but even if 2 destroyers survive first phase, one of them will die before firing the next salvo, and missles are less accurate in mid-range phase.

Then, due to survivability of cruisers, they would get expirience=> more HP, while glass cannons pretty much can not accumulate a lot of expirience.

Waylander1982

Newcomer

Waylander1982

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 6:40:12 AM

If you're not building your ships with extra hp and the best repair module for your tech level/ship type then you deserve to suffer.

They aren't overpowered, people just aren't countering them correctly.

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

11 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 2:05:02 AM

Glass cannon > Tanks.

Cheap/mini glass cannon > Glass cannon.

Tanks > Cheap/mini glass cannon.

Lern it, love it, and possibly we should tech the AI it. (If it's going to stay, we should build the combat to directly support, show and even thrive off of it.)

frakc

Newcomer

frakc

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 1:45:26 AM

Wisper

Super secret information!

The easiest way to beat torpedos - take more armor

extra armore is 20% less efective then flaks, but repair card and repair module make incredible effect!

Magnianhk

Newcomer

Magnianhk

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 9, 2012, 5:43:20 PM

Racial traits and leaders can help significantly. If you have optimal defense (up to +15% defense?) then that can help tremendously. Also by having a leader specialize in defense your fleets can negate up to 92% damage.

Mostly it boils down to tech. Your flak needs to be better than his missiles, plus you could try a bit of armor just to increase your ship HP. If your defenses are adequate you shouldn't be taking much damage from any single type of offense.

Garbaad

Newcomer

Garbaad

Newcomer

13 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Nov 23, 2012, 7:48:52 AM

I have tried it several times just to build mini glasscannons. Its just beating them with their own tactic. And the best is: The glasscannon players hate it^^

The trick is to know what will happen next. You construct miniglasscannons, he will react and will counter with miniminiglasscannons. Afterwards you make a fleet of well protected Dreadnoughts his miniships are not

able to harm (Flak + Beams).

Thanks for the idea with the defensive retreat, didn't know this would work.

Important: you will lose your miniglasscannons in EVERY battle, don't be afraid of this...

Apheirox

Newcomer

Apheirox

Newcomer

6 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Nov 7, 2012, 1:43:01 PM

Uggh, another post about missiles being unbalanced. Clearly there is a problem. Amplitude, you need to look into this.

Since it's pretty clear to me that nobody understands how missiles work (see my post, top of page) I'm going to make a post and request from Amplitude that they take the time to explain it. It's ridiculous we don't know it it works and it makes it impossible to discuss balance.

EDIT: It's up. Let's hope Amplitude gives us the geeky details.

maur4395

Newcomer

maur4395

Newcomer

12 years ago

Oct 2, 2012, 12:45:37 PM

Beefhater wrote:
i had once the same strategy but to many of my retreat tries failed and on this way i loss more ships as if i fight against them on the normal way

I personally haven't ever had it fail but I personally use energy weapons more than missles since they seem to be much more effective in all phases. But keeping ahead in flak is important, and as far as flak shield ships are concerned I am almost positive that would work. Flak is centered on ships that have the modules so I doubt it would help your 'heavy' hitters. That is, in the current battle model.

Boldicus

Newcomer

Boldicus

Newcomer

6 500g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 19, 2012, 4:56:30 PM

hey all!

how by the dark gods of chaos do i beat torpedo's!

or counter them i've fought my friends many times and every time if they decide to have torpedo's or spam them i cannot counter and even if i win it costs me 75%!

I know you use flak i understand that, and also using camouflage or sabotage i know those as well.

but they still do not seem to work enough most of the time ive only ever seen one ship survive a volley that was using camouflage and flak.

if i had say 2 ships and attempted to use them as a flak barrier would that work? cause what im doing atm is having say 3 armour 3 flak lasers torps and what ever...

what i am thinking for my future ships is 7 flak 4 armour and only lasers or something like that?

any advice on this will be very helpful!

Kyu

Newcomer

Kyu

Newcomer

19 800g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 29, 2012, 12:21:35 PM

the flak as a viable counter point can be rendered moot by the aggressor teching into multiple, or all, weapon types.

missiles also have a single major drawback, you can always retreat without taking damage. If your opponent has been auto-ing everything and not paying attention, if you have beams/kinetics you can use offensive retreat safely.

Tredecim

Newcomer

Tredecim

Newcomer

200g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 27, 2012, 8:50:14 PM

Kareal wrote:
This is the solution right here. The game's combat looks like rock-paper-scissors with the three weapons and it is, but its rock-paper-scissors in half a dozen other dimensions also, if you can't beat them in one dimension choose another one.

Well said! Couldn't have explained better

Kareal

Enthusiast

Modder Player Fan

Kareal

Enthusiast

37 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 27, 2012, 8:43:17 PM

Grubsnik wrote:
The key to winning against glass cannons is to build even cheaper glass cannons. If your opponent doesn't have any flak or extra hitpoints, just make ships with barely enough firepower to kill a ship of their own before exploding... a small ship like that only costs ~50 production. The way to compete against the cheaper glass cannons is to reduce the amount of missiles his ships are carrying and either add some flak or just accept the wasted space. Either way, it will soon become possible for you to equip your own ships with flak enough to withstand his missile barrages.

This is the solution right here. The game's combat looks like rock-paper-scissors with the three weapons and it is, but its rock-paper-scissors in half a dozen other dimensions also, if you can't beat them in one dimension choose another one.

Dustballs

Newcomer

Dustballs

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 25, 2012, 9:11:22 AM

A similar questionline can also be found here: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11359-are-missiles-op

And as I stated there, I do not think it needs to be balanced out by maximizing the amount of weapons or defenses. That would give less strategic differences. Besides, in the other thread are quite a few option to counter missile fleets.

DeamonStorm

Newcomer

DeamonStorm

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 25, 2012, 4:50:49 AM

I gotta admit that this glass cannon ship is a problem that needs to be balanced out. I would like to see a max load out on ships. EG, maximum number of a given weapon type implemented.

Grubsnik

Newcomer

Grubsnik

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 24, 2012, 3:49:04 PM

A second option is to invest heavily in beams and hope to crush his ships in the very first round of combat, before missiles are launched, but that probably requires a significant tech investment which I don't think you have.

Grubsnik

Newcomer

Grubsnik

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 24, 2012, 3:46:46 PM

The key to winning against glass cannons is to build even cheaper glass cannons. If your opponent doesn't have any flak or extra hitpoints, just make ships with barely enough firepower to kill a ship of their own before exploding... a small ship like that only costs ~50 production. The way to compete against the cheaper glass cannons is to reduce the amount of missiles his ships are carrying and either add some flak or just accept the wasted space. Either way, it will soon become possible for you to equip your own ships with flak enough to withstand his missile barrages.

Kyu

Newcomer

Kyu

Newcomer

19 800g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 9:17:05 PM

if you arent ahead on flak tech compared to missile tech, its difficult to efficiently counter it with defense. especially if they are your neighbor and appear to fight you first. in my experience most players think they will have time to build infrastructure and expand and research in peace. so when those warships come rolling in, they just dont have anything to combat them.

under the current system for multiplayer, assuming the game has no house rules, players need to learn that in order to get to their cool science techs and nifty buildings, they need to survive the early game. more often than not, that means you have to play the same early game and just try to get an edge in production or tech that keeps you alive and well.

Zazen

Old

Zazen

Old

17 300g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 3:58:45 PM

I have been working on this. A solution to the "glass cannon" missile boats that all the cravers and other early rushers use. The only viable solution is to be ahead on flak research and realize it only takes, at most, 4 missiles of your own to kill their "glass cannons". So, use all that extra space for flaks and hopefully you have Optimal Structure for even more space. You're still going to lose ships , but if you can make them lose 2 or 3 to 1 of versus yours you'll eventually win that battle of attrition more often than not.

Boldicus

Newcomer

Boldicus

Newcomer

6 500g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 7:24:43 AM

Euxenius wrote:
Have you tried doing torpedo against em as main/only weapon and heavy flak?

I have tried that but the battle was a draw... we both lost everything but as i had less fleets i couldn't afford to lose...

FireStorm wrote:
It depends on tech level of missiles and flak.If missile is higher tech, your flak will be less effective.Try yo use higher tech flak.

My friend was high tech than me (was 3x the size of my empire) I'll try that next time.

FireStorm

Newcomer

FireStorm

Newcomer

10 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Sep 20, 2012, 2:31:52 AM

It depends on tech level of missiles and flak.If missile is higher tech, your flak will be less effective.Try yo use higher tech flak.

Euxenius

Newcomer

Euxenius

Newcomer

12 years ago

Sep 19, 2012, 9:33:22 PM

Have you tried doing torpedo against em as main/only weapon and heavy flak?

Click here to login

Comment

Characters : 0