Stealth_Hawk wrote:
I am 100% in support of adding something to the Automaton Affinity that kicks in in the mid game so they don't start to fall apart. After enough systems are colonized, industry stacking is hard to use to its full potential. I also like your idea of adding faction-specific techs to their tech tree. In fact, more Sowers specific terraforming techs should be added. Like something that reduces the industry cost to terrafrom in the system.

I thought Ail fixed the AI governors to make proper use of industry stacking?

They do to some extent, but from what ive observesed they cant plan ahead on stacks, only to build 1 thing at a time stacking the interest till they have enough to build it in one turn. Which makes sense, since players can get pretty creative on stacks.



On every day but sunday i have to be done by 7edt, which sorta means starting by 3-4 edt =(

Ail did do some extensive work on the subject, but even though it gives them a boost I don't want to use AI governors, anyway. I don't trust them at all.

Just occured me that improvements or common techs could be used in conjunction with the expansion effort mechanic to slow down expansion without crippling the system. having to research or build improvements will slow down colony development in some way.



Another alternative is to just play on smaller maps... expand but theres not that much to expand to.



There was that other suggestion that im nots ure can be coded, to have a ship that when orbiting a outpost could generate a bit of influence, or provide fids to counter the expansion effort. Would take industry to make and dust to mantain and ships to protect.



Yet another when i was thinking of fixed map designs, is to have systems in better defined tight clusters. Acting akin to starcraft bases and expansions. With a fair amount of distance between clusters but designed so each starting position has a clear expansion or two that can be grabbed either once their home area is developed or take a risk and grab it earlier while weakening your position (its so easy to stay at peace in ffas and fast expand though...).

Just to put in my 2-pennies-worth.



For clarity, I've only played the one single-player game with the mod so far; we're currently in the middle of a vanilla multiplayer game so won't be able to try it in multiplayer until we've finished that. That game (usual multiplayer galaxy generation, so spiral-8, 8 player Impossible AI, dense, many-planets-per-system, perfect balance, high resources, many wormholes, everything else default, normal speed) left me with a modest advantage after the expansion phase (playing custom Automaton without Stellar Guardians); I didn't have any systems within early influence bubble, so expanded slow (took 3 other systems in my arm including the inside-wormhole system to try and cover the rest when they bubbled). Waited out the 30 turns and the instant they turned to colonies we were off to the races.



So, to the mod. In general, I like the changes. The FIDS changes seem to have made a big difference (the colony base improvement is a big buff to the Automatons as there's suddenly some production to stack), although the conversion improvements feel like a nerf as stack management rarely gives a chance to queue them. The trade route bonuses make mass trade feel viable again. I like the look of the Sophon/UE changes (assuming the UE changes get implemented as described). The trade route bonuses might be enough to boost the Amoeba, and the internal colonization may make the Tolerant trait more useful. The science-outside-territory, expansion disapproval, and faction trait changes seem mostly sensible.



As an aside, I have no idea what the Horatio change actually does (what does Fatigue Recovery actually control?). Trying to balance the Horatio seems like a fools errand until the Heroes get a proper rebalance pass as the Horatio can vary between extremely strong and incredibly weak depending upon random draw.



To the more controversial changes: Increasing seed module cost seems plausible - it slows down the early expand and buffs the Pilgrims (who desperately needed something), makes in-system expansion more appealing, and fits with the outside-territory-expansion penalty; it massively cuts down on move-population-from-fast-growing-system strategies which I'm not sure is a good thing (but then I guess they have to take the reduction in support module cost). I did find it somewhat of a struggle when my starting planet hit full pop and I didn't yet have the techs to colonise in-system to juggle pop around for best growth, but maybe that's intentional.



The Sowers change feels like a nerf. Now, admittedly, they're probably too strong due to all the other changes to leave as-is, but it loses some of their character, and it feels like the Sowers have been changed so "default Sowers with Tolerant" is balanced but Sower affinity has been harmed by that very balance pass. I'm not sure what to suggest but I think this one needs to go back to the drawing board for another look.



Finally the "Expansion Effort" mechanism. On the plus side, it makes that first territory expansion building (the satellite one two techs in) a much better buy than it used to be. On the negative side, it makes Stellar Guardians really good, buffs the Horatio, and makes the random galaxy generation even more prone to giving someone a massive boost as even one extra system inside territory makes a huge difference to the penalties here. Unlike some, I like the fact that it nerfs food and dust (yes, based on other mechanics, science makes more logical sense than food, but you don't get the effect you're actually aiming for with science). It might make expansion a fraction too slow for "normal speed" multiplayer (we're happy to play multiplayer over 6+ hours, so it'll be less of a hit to our multiplayer than some). It's also a massive penalty to the military/expansionist races (Cravers/Hissho) even though they both have potential FIDS boosts to counter it.



So, again, interesting concept, good idea in theory, needs some rework so the luck of getting a couple of nearby systems doesn't completely invalidate the penalty. Considering you've already got the dust and science penalty for systems outside of influence area, maybe it should be based more on "number of systems taken recently" with a drop-off over time that doesn't depend on territorial borders (so, more like the outpost->colony mechanic).



And to briefly comment on the other balance suggestions in this thread: I don't get the Craver hate but then no-one in my games play Cravers (I'm the only one who's tried, and I can't make them work). The Amoeba are probably fine with the trade-route buffs and an extra 5 points of traits. I don't get giving the Horatio a food buff - a single starting Admin (so "Admin with food/production/happiness on 5+ systems") is plenty (especially if they've also got Cloning); they really don't need more - fix the heroes, then look at the Horatio again.

Just to clarify, my suggestions are based on the current build, not the mod build. I would rather start with something that works already than something that is in development.



As to Horatio - think about it, why would they clone heroes who are NOT Horatio? Makes no sense. To me, they should be a food (cloning) buff race instead. Forget heroes.



Another though - eliminate affinities entirely and just balance traits. Races would just be defined by their mix of traits, in essence. That would be the easiest balance system. In fact, I think I may do that for the Mod. Picking a race for custom would just be a portrait, though I would build the races around stuff like that.

For those interested, i'm currently tweaking the Save the Sowers mod, tweaking a few things and adding a few improvements from my FF mod (no module/buildings balance though). It's a bit more arduous than i expected though as when i added some of my AI improvements, i found out they didn't work so well with stock game parameters so i have to make some adaptations. It's going well though, i should have something to show today or tomorrow.

Vypuero wrote:
Just to clarify, my suggestions are based on the current build, not the mod build. I would rather start with something that works already than something that is in development.



As to Horatio - think about it, why would they clone heroes who are NOT Horatio? Makes no sense. To me, they should be a food (cloning) buff race instead. Forget heroes.



Another though - eliminate affinities entirely and just balance traits. Races would just be defined by their mix of traits, in essence. That would be the easiest balance system. In fact, I think I may do that for the Mod. Picking a race for custom would just be a portrait, though I would build the races around stuff like that.

Horatio do clone themselves. It's called the cloaning trait :P

If Cravers can accept heroes into their society, then heroes probably gain the complete trust of a race, effectively making them part of that race. So Horatio isn't cloaning non-horatio's, they're simply making more of a military resource in small quantities, allbeit a flawed version of themselves, an abbomination if you will.



Also, you think to get rid of custom races from the game entirely? Remove all the special tech trees unique to each affinity? Remove some of the very essence of the affinities? You must be a pure horatio player, since they are the only faction who's affinity isn't fully what they're all about, rather their traits such as cloaning and price of beauty is. Every other race is pretty clearly defined by their affinities and tech trees.

You think we should get rid of a large part of the game, and indeed a large part of the fun and community, just because it isn't balanced... You don't get rid of features in a video game with no alternative, you simply make the current ones balanced/add more. Taking a step back is not a good idea in video games, you only move forward or plant your feet more solidly.

RobM wrote:
...

As an aside, I have no idea what the Horatio change actually does (what does Fatigue Recovery actually control?). Trying to balance the Horatio seems like a fools errand until the Heroes get a proper rebalance pass as the Horatio can vary between extremely strong and incredibly weak depending upon random draw.

Hero healing after they get injured.

...

Finally the "Expansion Effort" mechanism. On the plus side, it makes that first territory expansion building (the satellite one two techs in) a much better buy than it used to be. On the negative side, it makes Stellar Guardians really good, buffs the Horatio, and makes the random galaxy generation even more prone to giving someone a massive boost as even one extra system inside territory makes a huge difference to the penalties here. Unlike some, I like the fact that it nerfs food and dust (yes, based on other mechanics, science makes more logical sense than food, but you don't get the effect you're actually aiming for with science). It might make expansion a fraction too slow for "normal speed" multiplayer (we're happy to play multiplayer over 6+ hours, so it'll be less of a hit to our multiplayer than some). It's also a massive penalty to the military/expansionist races (Cravers/Hissho) even though they both have potential FIDS boosts to counter it.

Yep, which is why I want to reduce the advantage that gives and weaken the effect of influence on it (faster flipping and such makes it go away). Its not a penalty to Cravers at all which is part of the problem. :/ Their +25% FIDS from the start allows them to ignore until they get a Sattelite. It just changes the research priority a lil and slows the rush to Casmir.

So, again, interesting concept, good idea in theory, needs some rework so the luck of getting a couple of nearby systems doesn't completely invalidate the penalty. Considering you've already got the dust and science penalty for systems outside of influence area, maybe it should be based more on "number of systems taken recently" with a drop-off over time that doesn't depend on territorial borders (so, more like the outpost->colony mechanic).

Ya, I just don't think we can implement that without something in the game counting it, I think.

And to briefly comment on the other balance suggestions in this thread: I don't get the Craver hate but then no-one in my games play Cravers (I'm the only one who's tried, and I can't make them work). The Amoeba are probably fine with the trade-route buffs and an extra 5 points of traits. I don't get giving the Horatio a food buff - a single starting Admin (so "Admin with food/production/happiness on 5+ systems") is plenty (especially if they've also got Cloning); they really don't need more - fix the heroes, then look at the Horatio again.

I'll be happy to demonstrate why the Cravers need a nerf to the FIDS bit sometime if you want. Honestly, their start will just be as good due to the Homeworld change to Ocean its just if they can sit for 40 turns they get a sizable CP advantage and just start steam rolling people with their bonus FIDS+military advantages.



I'm planning to change heroes, which is why I'm buffing Horatio. You wouldn't have an Admin that gives all 3 anymore. You'd get either food/happiness/dust or industry/science/trade which will balance the Admin/Corp heroes against each other and make you choose between Growth Bonus (Food/Happiness/Dust) or the Build Bonus (industry/sci/trade) on a system.

RobM wrote:
Just to put in my 2-pennies-worth.



For clarity, I've only played the one single-player game with the mod so far; we're currently in the middle of a vanilla multiplayer game so won't be able to try it in multiplayer until we've finished that. That game (usual multiplayer galaxy generation, so spiral-8, 8 player Impossible AI, dense, many-planets-per-system, perfect balance, high resources, many wormholes, everything else default, normal speed) left me with a modest advantage after the expansion phase (playing custom Automaton without Stellar Guardians); I didn't have any systems within early influence bubble, so expanded slow (took 3 other systems in my arm including the inside-wormhole system to try and cover the rest when they bubbled). Waited out the 30 turns and the instant they turned to colonies we were off to the races.



So, to the mod. In general, I like the changes. The FIDS changes seem to have made a big difference (the colony base improvement is a big buff to the Automatons as there's suddenly some production to stack), although the conversion improvements feel like a nerf as stack management rarely gives a chance to queue them. The trade route bonuses make mass trade feel viable again. I like the look of the Sophon/UE changes (assuming the UE changes get implemented as described). The trade route bonuses might be enough to boost the Amoeba, and the internal colonization may make the Tolerant trait more useful. The science-outside-territory, expansion disapproval, and faction trait changes seem mostly sensible.



As an aside, I have no idea what the Horatio change actually does (what does Fatigue Recovery actually control?). Trying to balance the Horatio seems like a fools errand until the Heroes get a proper rebalance pass as the Horatio can vary between extremely strong and incredibly weak depending upon random draw.



To the more controversial changes: Increasing seed module cost seems plausible - it slows down the early expand and buffs the Pilgrims (who desperately needed something), makes in-system expansion more appealing, and fits with the outside-territory-expansion penalty; it massively cuts down on move-population-from-fast-growing-system strategies which I'm not sure is a good thing (but then I guess they have to take the reduction in support module cost). I did find it somewhat of a struggle when my starting planet hit full pop and I didn't yet have the techs to colonise in-system to juggle pop around for best growth, but maybe that's intentional.



The Sowers change feels like a nerf. Now, admittedly, they're probably too strong due to all the other changes to leave as-is, but it loses some of their character, and it feels like the Sowers have been changed so "default Sowers with Tolerant" is balanced but Sower affinity has been harmed by that very balance pass. I'm not sure what to suggest but I think this one needs to go back to the drawing board for another look.



Finally the "Expansion Effort" mechanism. On the plus side, it makes that first territory expansion building (the satellite one two techs in) a much better buy than it used to be. On the negative side, it makes Stellar Guardians really good, buffs the Horatio, and makes the random galaxy generation even more prone to giving someone a massive boost as even one extra system inside territory makes a huge difference to the penalties here. Unlike some, I like the fact that it nerfs food and dust (yes, based on other mechanics, science makes more logical sense than food, but you don't get the effect you're actually aiming for with science). It might make expansion a fraction too slow for "normal speed" multiplayer (we're happy to play multiplayer over 6+ hours, so it'll be less of a hit to our multiplayer than some). It's also a massive penalty to the military/expansionist races (Cravers/Hissho) even though they both have potential FIDS boosts to counter it.



So, again, interesting concept, good idea in theory, needs some rework so the luck of getting a couple of nearby systems doesn't completely invalidate the penalty. Considering you've already got the dust and science penalty for systems outside of influence area, maybe it should be based more on "number of systems taken recently" with a drop-off over time that doesn't depend on territorial borders (so, more like the outpost->colony mechanic).



And to briefly comment on the other balance suggestions in this thread: I don't get the Craver hate but then no-one in my games play Cravers (I'm the only one who's tried, and I can't make them work). The Amoeba are probably fine with the trade-route buffs and an extra 5 points of traits. I don't get giving the Horatio a food buff - a single starting Admin (so "Admin with food/production/happiness on 5+ systems") is plenty (especially if they've also got Cloning); they really don't need more - fix the heroes, then look at the Horatio again.

Thank you for that. This is one of the best posts so far.

its a well good formulated and objectiv

summup which i highly support and appriciate



thank u also for your time u took for playing test games.

Gameslayer989 wrote:
Horatio do clone themselves. It's called the cloaning trait :P

If Cravers can accept heroes into their society, then heroes probably gain the complete trust of a race, effectively making them part of that race. So Horatio isn't cloaning non-horatio's, they're simply making more of a military resource in small quantities, allbeit a flawed version of themselves, an abbomination if you will.



Also, you think to get rid of custom races from the game entirely? Remove all the special tech trees unique to each affinity? Remove some of the very essence of the affinities? You must be a pure horatio player, since they are the only faction who's affinity isn't fully what they're all about, rather their traits such as cloaning and price of beauty is. Every other race is pretty clearly defined by their affinities and tech trees.

You think we should get rid of a large part of the game, and indeed a large part of the fun and community, just because it isn't balanced... You don't get rid of features in a video game with no alternative, you simply make the current ones balanced/add more. Taking a step back is not a good idea in video games, you only move forward or plant your feet more solidly.

I still see the whole cloning hero thing as being a somewhat random benefit. It also fits in with my general theme of nerfing Heroes. They are OP. Vast interstellar empires should be less affected by one or two heroes, shouldn't they?



No, I would in fact use specific techs rather than affinities to make the games different - However, how are affinities more "fun" than using traits that you can mix and match? They should really be the same. As it is, affinities are far too overpowered. They should be closer to the benefits you get for Civilizations in CIV 5, enough to be significant but not game changers.

Umm considering the heroes are the only ones who can use dust on a large-scale and that dust is so powerful it's practically magic, yeah I would say that heroes can affect vast interstellar empires :P

Heroes are powerful it's true, but they also are expensve early game, and if you wait until later to buy them then you run the risk of having less EXP than your opponent. I can however understand why you would want to nerf heroes. Before level 10 pilots are fine, after that though they get a little insane...



I'm pretty sure fatigue means how many turns you have to wait to re-assign a hero. I would assume that with 100% fatigue recovery you could re-assign in 2 turns, although I haven't yet tested my theory.

If anyone is interested in testing this, please add/message me on steam.



Right now, I've got Vyp, Sovreign, and a couple people I know but we can't seem to all get on at the same time to test yet :P

The devs forgot to give TraitFleet09norm2 (Hull architects 2/2) to the Sheredyn.

I don't want to create a new thread for this minor fix.



faction.xml



Unzip into ...\Endless Space\Modding\savethesowers\Simulation

yeah i noticed that backs these days too but i think its just en pre alpha mod anyway.

Hey guys i moded the mod to see if the sowers would be to powerfull with their old affinity of

40% is added to

and -50% on system



with new the planetary FIDS



i didnt got this feeling but



i like to hear your thoughs here is the download of my mod.



Changes: Sowers got their old affinity stats back



http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?527dlxvlvrnv77t

I'll gladly help test, aureion on steam.

at the mod.



http://ge.tt/6wrZ2de/v/0?c

ElMew wrote:
Changes, Round 1



Racial:

• Stellar Guardian Nerf
• Sowers Fix (30%/30% conversion)
• Cravers is now 20 / 60 instead of 40 / 60 for improved / normal production. Rest is unchanged.
• United Empire - 0-60% / 0-100% as per original notes, it wasn't doing this before.
• Horatio is going to get a Sophon-style Food Buff via Tax Rate (20% for 0-50%, so 2% per tick for 10 ticks). This is done due to the Stellar Guardians nerf.
• Amoeba is being left alone for the moment to see if +5 pts & trade changes are enough to salvage it.
• Changed all racial point definitions to 65 pts.
  
  

General Changes:

• All star systems are now 'good' systems, many/perfect results in 6 planets in all systems.
• Outpost -> Colony Time is now 20 turns.
• Expansion Cost is being left alone, the 20 vs. 30 turn change is enough to make colonies flip fast enough to avoid crippling a MP game (rough guess, not 100% sure yet).
• Expansion Approval tweaked but not quite what I said, I want to test it and see.
  
  

Hero changes are not yet in.





I'd like to test these changes Wed night if I can get 4 ppl together (besides me). I think the greater quantities of Terrans/Oceans/Jungles combined with the 20 turn flip time is enough. If it feels decent, I'll fix the heroes and then we'll play Affinity only games for a bit to try to test Affinity balance.



There are a couple ways to fast expand with custom races:

Stellar Guardians on Sophons.

Mineral Rich + Stacking Food & Happiness bonuses to counteract the expansion method.





In all honesty, I hate the artificial limiters involved with this and they are very fragile (in the sense they are unbreakable and require optimization to function, or too easily broken). Sticking with a reduced timer is one option. The 3 dust thing just didn't work (too easy to break out of, I'd have to make something like 9 which might make it too hard for people who don't understand how to cycle ind/dust to manage their economies). I really, really would prefer to have an Outpost counter (which doesn't seem to be how this game is tracking stuff based on the XML) in place of this silly Influence/NotInInfluence accounting which is easily broken.

Are these the changelogs?





so i will post my thoughts and feedbacks as soon i got enough time.

Test results: Total bonkers, again.



Stellar Guardians + Satellite are the only way.



The "System under influence is a colony for expansion effort calculation" thing needs to go, no exceptions.

Also, the timer to "flip" should be more dynamic than fixed 30 turns, since it currently creates "waves": colonize 3-4 systems, wait turn 31, colonized everything else. Doesn't make much sense.



Or: Scrap the whole food/dust malus and crank up approval.



Sowers are saved, though. With Tolerant, atleast (Please have tolerant reduce the approval malus on tier2+ planets, though, 30 points are hardly justified without atleast that)