There's 93 techs in game. In order to finish all of them on standard setting (300 turns) this means you have 3,2 turns per tech. 

It's clear that it takes quite a while for your empire to reach that average, and so the way it was pre Maximus-patch it was actually right: to be able to 1 turn tech up at late game. It was necessary to be able to finish the tree within the turn limit.

I played a Maximus-patch game (Nation) last night and I was unable to come close to finishing my tech tree. I made sure to focus on it, and I specifically waited to go into Industrial Era before I had all my tech caught up. This happened at turn 199, so pacing wise I felt perfectly on track with 100 turns to go for the final two Era's.  

But, Industrial and Contemporary have 17 and 31 techs each. This means an even steeper average of 1 tech per 2 turns. I am nearing the end of the game, and as expected nowhere near the end of the tree: I still have half of it undeveloped. I did not max out completely, but i did focus heavily on research & infrastructure, and I got all the Contemporary wonders. 

The final Era has double the tech of all the others, and so the real problem is not the technology costs. The game is simply too short. If you have 50 turns per Era (and it is actually a bit less because of Neolithic), it means that tech at late game has to speed up incredibly. 

So either you go back to how it was pre-patch, but then you have the problem of units being out-teched before they are built, or - my preferred solution - to have at least 50 to 100 turns added. (Teching is one thing, there should also be time to actually build and use your tech). 

I've said it elsewhere before, but to me it's obvious there's an Era missing between Industrial and Contemporary. Look at the technology numbers: 

Ancient 12

Classical 12

Medieval 10

Early Modern 11

Industrial 17

Contemporary 31

If another (Late) Modern Era is introduced, the tech of Contemporary can be split in half, and all the Era's are balanced. 

I understand this is not a patch solution, as it would require a full on expansion with another 10 Cultures added. (I wouldn't mind of course :P)

Of course other solutions can be made. Civ 6 has eureka's, a nice mechanic that finishes part of the tech if you fulfill a requirement. I think research in Humankind is too spammy & boring now. You have to plumb down districs all the time, and the amount of infrastructure is huge and not very interesting as well. 

There's osmosis, which is interesting, but what it offers is either little points, or the gold cost is excessive. 

You could also think about adding a mechanic in relation to Independent Peoples. If you reach a treshold they offer a tech boost. It could be a fun way to "hunt" Independent Peoples. 

In any case, the way it is now, post Maximus-patch: quite impossible. The game is simply too short. 

Thoughts? 

Yeah let's hope this weeks patch offers at least a short term solution. But I really hope they have a long term vision too, and it was only cut short because they had to release the game early. Otherwise I can't understand the state of the game, which almost feels cruel. So much good stuff but no way to enjoy it properly!

You are not supposed to finish the Contemporary Era technology in a normal 300 turn game.  (That’s why the end technologies  are a separate end condition).   with 100 turns and Industrial era, 1/3 turns is about right 17 / 50.  1/2-1/3 for Contemporary is also about right (finishing up with 17-25 of the 31 techs researched). It probably has been overtuned, but you shouldn’t be finishing without a Big science boost (and you should be beelining, don’t get techs you don’t need)

I'm in the middle of a game, and I've got the option to hit the contemporary era, but my technology level is still back in Early Modern as a matter of fact 4 out of 11.

I was wondering what the hell happened from the previous games I played, where generally by the time I hit an age, I'm just learning that level of tech. But this patch has me really nonplussed as far as this goes.

It went from going potentially too fast if you chose a few science oriented civilizations and putting a lot of effort into science, to being able to end the game before turn 300 with a science victory. To the state that it is now, where I'll be lucky to have technology appropriate for my Era. This speed adjustment, has me giving this a thumbs down right now.

Krikkitone wrote:

You are not supposed to finish the Contemporary Era technology in a normal 300 turn game.

That doesn't make any sense to me. 300 turns is the normal setting. I expect to be able to both finish the tech tree and enjoy its units and buildings. Where do you get this idea from? 

sapsling wrote:

Krikkitone wrote:

You are not supposed to finish the Contemporary Era technology in a normal 300 turn game.

That doesn't make any sense to me. 300 turns is the normal setting. I expect to be able to both finish the tech tree and enjoy its units and buildings. Where do you get this idea from? 

Why? Because Civ? This ain't Civ.

I'm talking about Humankind. The game says 300 turns is the normal, standard speed. It's designed around that. 

Not being able to finish the tech tree is extremely unsatisfying. If this is by design, it's bad design. I understand the need to focus/specialize but that's why you focus on some tree branches before others, that's the strategic part. Also, to actually benefit from technology you need to produce their buildings and units, so it's not like research alone gives you a massive boost. So I prefer if all the technologies are achievable within the game timeframe. The exception to this are the 4 late game techs, which should be significantly more expensive because they're essentially "future techs".

I also agree with the OP's suggestion to increase the number of turns to 350. I always end up playing after the time limit anyway.

The last 5 techs shouldn't be researched in a normal (nonscience focused) 300 turn game, because the last 5 techs are there to say you have beaten the game. (ie if you always finish the tech tree before 300 turns, then the 300 turn limit is meaningless)

You should be able to finish a portion of the Contemporary Era technology in the game, and they do need to tune it so that is the normal situation.

[some of that is making the nonfinal techs a little cheaper, making the final techs more expensive, and nerfing the science ability of collective minds]

I understand what you mean now. I don't agree tho. 

First off, it's not just the final 5 techs. The gap is much bigger. 

Secondly, there is fame to be won at the ending techs. Some of that fame can make you win the game. 

Thirdly, having researched tech is nothing if I cannot enjoy its units and buildings in a meaningful way. If I follow your argument you are saying that a large part of what the Contemporary Era offers (units, infrastructure) is off limits on a standard game setting? And this is by design?? I don't think any dev would agree on that. 

Another reason to be able to complete the tech tree except last five tech is that Humankind pretend to be a pseudo historical game. In our reality we discovered all techs so every player knows them. Missing something make a story inconsistent like to have computers and not know fishery. Or to have labor unions without factories.

Paradox soled this issue better in EU4. You will progress in same three tech ares linearly like any other country do. You can do it faster or slower depends on different factors. But you wouldn't be able to speed up or slow down your progress too much because of your neighbours. Technologies are able to percolate through countries borders with trade, spies or cultural exchange. 

With this mechanic science start to be an optional and situational strategy. Which is better for a gameplay. 

Dimmentio wrote:

Another reason to be able to complete the tech tree except last five tech is that Humankind pretend to be a pseudo historical game. In our reality we discovered all techs so every player knows them. Missing something make a story inconsistent like to have computers and not know fishery. Or to have labor unions without factories.

Paradox soled this issue better in EU4. You will progress in same three tech ares linearly like any other country do. You can do it faster or slower depends on different factors. But you wouldn't be able to speed up or slow down your progress too much because of your neighbours. Technologies are able to percolate through countries borders with trade, spies or cultural exchange. 

With this mechanic science start to be an optional and situational strategy. Which is better for a gameplay. 

Please take another look at the adverts for the game (first vids on the channel). The kind of historicity sold was not the linear one. Humankind is supposed to be about all the possibilities that humanity could have followed. But hey, I suppose the communication was vague enough for some to come with no expectation (which was my case at first, ironicaly enough, until I went back to check what I was sold on) or for other to come with contradictory expectations.

I know that this comment will not help, but I find the idea of a tech tree in a game about possibilities underwhelming. What ? Nobody had a brillant design idea to break this I don't know how hold trope ? Sigh.

sapsling wrote:

I understand what you mean now. I don't agree tho. 

First off, it's not just the final 5 techs. The gap is much bigger. 

Secondly, there is fame to be won at the ending techs. Some of that fame can make you win the game. 

Thirdly, having researched tech is nothing if I cannot enjoy its units and buildings in a meaningful way. If I follow your argument you are saying that a large part of what the Contemporary Era offers (units, infrastructure) is off limits on a standard game setting? And this is by design?? I don't think any dev would agree on that. 

I'm saying

1. Researching ALL the Contemporary Era techs in the 300 turns should be possible, but difficult (ie only with a strong focus on science)

2. You should be able to get Some of them in the 300 turns (even including 1 or 2 of the Finals depending on how you focus on things) unless you put minimal effort into science

So you can experience everything in Contemporary, but not all one game. (unless you extend past the 300 turns)

It should give you technology options, instead of just opening up everything.

That said it was undertuned, and now it is overtuned (except for the final techs they are probably still too cheap)

Almost every game I have played so far, on Normal, I always play past 300 turns.  It's not till after about 350 that I get to enjoy the end game techs and units.  So, for us, without rushing science or cheesing to spam techs, 400 turns is about right.  I have always won (or seen a winner) by science or militarily near the 400 turn mark.  I really don't like getting a new tech every 2-3 turns, it's just too fast for us; kind'a like watching a fast train speed by and trying to glimpse the passengers wizzing by.