As aesthete cultures in ancient era，they lack efficient ways to build up sufficient strength.

Olmecs EQ is inefficient while build 2 farmers quarter per territory is wasteful in the first two eras(if 1 EQ&1 normal FQ,the EQ increases normal FQ costs significantly;2 neighboring Olmec Heads require strict terrain condition and would give up some food exploited;an Olmec Head and a Celtic Nemeton？That's another problem…).But without the synergy bonus,Olmecs even dosen't have enough culture advantage(not general) toward Harappan and Egyptian.

Zhou's EQ is even awkward.Its first effect of stability bonus is hard to quote for me.But its synergy effect needs the most strict condition,and in many cases has to seize the optimal location of  makers quarter,which makes my technology advantage much less meaningful,as I don't have enough industry to build infrastructure and new units quickly(sometimes even slower than industrial/merchant cultures in total).And because of not being a scientist culture I have to waste some turns on some not needed techs.

The EUs of Olmecs and Zhou are also a bit insufficient.Olmec javelin thrower is limited by line of sight too seriously.Zhanche is a little expensive(especially considering Zhou's short of industry and money) for era1,and ineffective in siege battles (which is more common for me in era2).

Besides these,Zhou's legacy is nearly not exist...It is too less for keeping high stability bonus,and not necessary for keeping medium stability,especially I won't build so many quarters as a lack-of-industry culture

mmm interesting point of view. I agree that Olmec could receive some kind of buff (even thought they are not in a bad spot) but the Zhou is one of the most chosen culture of Ancient era and I don´t consider it that weak.

I'm playing a game with Olmecs right now and I don't agree that they are weak. First, they produce influence points, which are very important at the beginning of the game and second, they motivate to build food districts, which are much stronger than production districts at the beginning of the game. Food at the beginning allows fast generation of population and they can generate production again. UU of Olmecs is very very specific but when positioned in the forest simply unbeatable. In summary, I would say that Olmecs are not weak at all at the beginning of the game.  

I played Zhou a lot during the Chinese New Year event and yes, it hobbled me greatly. It's nice having a huge science bonus, but then you're lacking in everything else.

Both of their weaknesses come from the disctrict scaling costs. I really hope this is changed. If you build any districts, it becomes impossible to build more than just the EQs. Why do you need Zhou's high stability when you can't build any districts (the main thing that lowers stability)?

Zhou is alright. I like their chariot (can't remember how to spell it). I do think they should be a science culture instead of aesthete because they kick a** when it comes to zooming through the early techs.

Olmecs and Zhous are obviously underpowered. That's why Eudamania buffed them in his mod. This mod is used by our competitive multiplayer community. He buffed Olmecs like this for exemple :

Olmecs: LT: LT changed to +1 influence on territory and +1 influence for each territory culturally controlled by the Olmecs. The EQ now provides +2 culture and counts as a religious building without producing faith.


The informations on the mod changes : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OOhAevJj54VP-6ovrB2XbObiPwTBv589iZbJyyV0gik/edit

The link to the mod : https://humankind.mod.io/overhaul-project

Amplitude devs you should read the change and try the mod. The game is much more balanced. Lot of wonders are buffed, like some units.

The Zhou are such oddballs with their mountain synergy and affinity that I'd be surprised if they had a high pickrate outside of the event.

I don't think that either of those two cultures are underpowered. Once I figured that I have to play differently with them than with other cultures, I realized that they are actually very powerful. The key is to play to their strengths (like all other cultures in the game).

Take the Olmecs for example, you can quickly create a couple of cities, add to that 2-4 emblematic districts, or assimilate some independent people, or claim a territory with a natural wonder, and you'll be generating a lot of influence very quickly. With that influence you can adopt policies faster than your opponents, and that will give you more combat strength, or religion, or whatever else you need in your early game. Another thing I like about them is that, because their ideological proximity is always maxed out with the other players, the AIs are more likely to accept my treaty requests, and it'll take them longer to declare war on me, so I don't have to build a substantial army in the beginning.

Another thing I changed about my play style with aesthete culture is how I look at policies. With other cultures and mediocre influence, my policies were very static, I'd pick a policy once and it'll never change for the rest of the game. But with aesthete cultures, I have enough influence to change my policy choices as time and my empire needs change. For example, in a recent game I enacted a policy to only trade with allies. Normally, this is a terrible policy that you probably don't want for the whole game. But because I had enough influence, I temporarily enact that policy to make sure some neighbors won't attack me while I waged war on another neighbor. Then after that war, I reversed that policy.

I hope that helps

Zhow is alright because science is scarce first 10-15 turns. I always disband 2 scouts instantly and place them to work on science - it is that scarce. And  as Zhoe with a bit of scounting you can place a city and an EQ for instant +10-15 science. Scientific rush into city defenders tech into a militaristic culture and iron reserves all-in. Felt very strong for me.

I personally don't think the Zhao are weak; I honestly choose it more than any of the other ancient cultures because the stability boost provided is extremely helpful later on when you expand your borders further. The Aesthete ability along with both cultures is also great. The aesthete ability itself makes it super strong in the early game, personally it would be hard for me to say any aesthete culture in the first two eras are weak. During my games it seems that 2-4 empires end up predominantly influential throughout all the others early-on, so it does get decently stable for most of the game unless something major happens. I do think the Olmec ability could seriously use a buff though. I chose them to run through all eras on marathon, and the influence buff they get really doesn't do much later on, which I think made that game much harder than it would have been had I chosen the Egyptians or the Babylonians or whatnot. That said, early game I also think that they are extremely beneficial at making influence like @paxis76 also mentioned. I do think that the Olmecs need a buff, but I wouldn't call them weak either

I like them but in Vanilla they're kind of underwhelming. Resource costs of certain units are balanced around access to resources that exceeds my preferred games with scarce resources.

I made a mod with a different version of zhou school where after being built it added +3 stability to adjacent common quarters. Basically a weaker and earlier Common's Quarter. I liked it because it meant that it could have a benefit but it wasn't very popular because for balance I removed the 'base' +10 stability. But really even if your not maximizing stability it's good for expansive gameplay and early attachment. 

Aesthete is quite easily on par with scientist affinity in terms of broken-ness, just having that affinity is enough. You just need to scout fast and far so you snatch those neutrals as soon as you see them - ideally before they've settled their own cities, just as they've spawned from redoubt. Then you give them your outpost and in 6-7 turns you're getting your own multi-cultural city. And multiculturalism civic is OP through first three eras of the game - 10 influence per main plaza/administrative is no joke.

Getting 100% extra fame bonus from aesthete stars (the post-multiculturalism civic) is also amazing - that means that a scientific ai may outpace you by era or two but they won't be able to end the game without you winning, lol. No one can really score as high as the Aesthete nation.

Olmecs (which are much better - zhou are kinda trash indeed) have already been greatly buffed by their new javelineers. 27 strength in forest (which is, like, everywhere) is no joke. And you have to be waging lots of wars with aesthetes if only to unlock multiculturalism and its continuation.

levmegs5 wrote:

I do think the Olmec ability could seriously use a buff though. I chose them to run through all eras on marathon, and the influence buff they get really doesn't do much later on, which I think made that game much harder than it would have been had I chosen the Egyptians or the Babylonians or whatnot.

I think that's more a drawback of transcending in relation with emblematic quarters. I transcended through all eras with the Zhou, and influence can be really hard to get when you only have one emblematic quarter at your disposal.

The opinions and arguments expressed are wrong and nearly worthless. To express your opinion about the Balance of a 4X, you have to play the game at a competitive level (Humankind) and then in multiplayer for at least 500 hours. For us, beating AIs in Humankind is a pieace of cake.

Nobody ever takes on Olmecs, Phoenicians and Zhous in multiplayer games, unless there is no other choice. I invite you once again to take an in-depth look at the Eudamania mod.

Jojo_Fr wrote:

The opinions and arguments expressed are wrong and nearly worthless. 

It's your opinion that is worthless. According to Steam, a grand total of 5.8% owners have bothered with the multiplayer.  If we measure this to Flawless achievement (31.2% players won against expert ai persona), you're 18% of community at most. In reality - less then that since some people play it real easy and it's a full map completion vs entering the game kind of achievement. Yet your kind always acts like your opinion is the most weighted one, lol. The voice of the community, lol.

Jojo_Fr wrote:

The opinions and arguments expressed are wrong and nearly worthless. To express your opinion about the Balance of a 4X, you have to play the game at a competitive level (Humankind) and then in multiplayer for at least 500 hours. For us, beating AIs in Humankind is a pieace of cake.

Nobody ever takes on Olmecs, Phoenicians and Zhous in multiplayer games, unless there is no other choice. I invite you once again to take an in-depth look at the Eudamania mod.

that's true. 

even civ6 is still on balancing stage for mp competitive games and, probably, never will be balanced by community.