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Biggest problem imo.. Too care bear. Not enough Human.

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2 years ago
Jun 1, 2022, 11:48:49 PM

Don't really know how else to word it. Title is more of a joking way to put it... For a game who's name is Humankind, that focuses on real civilizations.. This game really does not take the essence of humankind at all...

I feel like the AI in this game is there to interact with, not there to win. Not there to emmulate, or feel like real civilizations rising and falling, and certainly not there to give me a real run for my money. This is a problem with any modern game tbh, but it's glaringly obvious with this game.

If you go play old school games like Civilization 2, or Civilization 3, etc. those AI are there to win. They are there to beat the player. They will exploit the game and use tricks etc, or rile things up.

I've had the AI in Civilization 3 give me feints during wars. Show a small army on my border, I move to intercept, and 3 turns later a massive army appears from the fog of war on the opposite side of my empire. (They would of had to travel up and around to make that happen, and would of had to move before the war even started to make their army appear there when they did).

You don't see stuff like that in games anymore. You don't see the AI making new friends, because those new friends are now more profitable than the old ones, or can provide better defense, or support. Nope you've been friends for 100 years, so yo have +50 in relationship, so NOTHING is going to sway them. (I do agree it should be like that to an extent, but.. in the end, not always).

Using Civilization 3 for an example again, you HAVE to build up your empire equally. You can lean in one way, a little more military at the cost of something, or a little more trade at the cost of something else, etc. but if you focus on just building up, or just military, or just diplomacy, the AI will notice that, will exploit that to your disadvantage to the most extreme it can.
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This game kind of has ALL of the problems though.. It's far too simple to make friends. It's always AI vs AI that's breaking up alliances, or having issues, for nonsensical reasons other than "I just want to hate you cuz reasons". There is no reason or logic behind it. It's far too simple to throw money at the problem...

You can hard focus on just building up buildings, and completely do away with military if you want, and the AI will never exploit that, because you can just pass around friendship tokens and alliances like your Oprah and they're going out of fashion.

Friends will almost always be friends, unless they just decide for nonsensical reasons that they now just don't like you.

That's an AI that's there to interact with, not there to win, or there to play the game. It's an AI that's flipping switches for you to react to, nothing more. Nothing less, and that makes for a shallow experience, because you can't interact with it, or fix it.

What I mean by that, is again using Civilization 3 as an example, if I could see that an AI is being aggressive over an area of land, or being aggressive with me. I could look at what they have. Oh look, Coffee resource is nearby that I own. They have almost no luxury resources, and I'm not trading with them. I could open up trade because of it, or even give them that piece of land. sometimes that would work. Or would appease them enough.

In this game, none of that matters. Buying out trade routes is too easy for both AI and player. Everyone has everything 24/7. Everyone has every alliance and friendship token 24/7. Religious unrest doesn't matter, cultural differences doesn't matter.

This game is for care bears that only want to hug and be friends. It doesn't take the essence of Humankind at all, and I feel like it could easily.

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Suggestions:

Because I don't want to just complain. I do have a few idea's to help make it feel even more like civilizations and ages rising and falling.

1) Era's should have way more of an impact than just flashy graphics and stars. (This isn't pre school. I don't need gold stars to tell me I'm doing something well).


I'd almost go so far as to say each era should have it's own influental governing AI sets that influence the base AI.

Early Era's should be far less friendly, and far more cynical. They are weak, and defensive. As are you. They want to grow, just like you do. Placing (or having more) civilizations in the game should be a thing. Some should start nearer each other, or to fix this, have more be able to be chosen at the start. Right now 10 max is just spreading them so far apart that it takes till the middle of the game before border friction starts.

2) Stronger AI logic for each type of civilization, and allow that AI to switch goals aggressively with what culture they choose.

If a civilization chose a war civilization, I want to see them actually making aggressive plays with it. If they chose trade I want to see them aggressively attempt to take advantage of it..

If my warmongering neighbor suddenly switches to a trade focused empire, I want to see them pull back on the aggression, and start opening trade, and attempting to rebuild bridges so to speak.

That's how civilizations were dynamic throughout the ages of building up in real life. There were dynamic real shifts in the mentality and culture of nations through ages.

* It would make choosing a new culture actually impactful to your success.

* It would be an indication to the new focus of your neighbors, and something the player can actually consider in terms of strategy.

3) More aggressive "We are here to win" logic from AI.

If you take a territory with resources on the border of an AI, they should care about that, ESPECIALLY if they were targeting it as something they wanted. This should cause real problems for you in the short term, and potentially even long term if you don't focus on rectifying or appeasing them.

Right now I can yeet every high profit, high yield territory right from the borders of AI, and they don't care at all. They just bend over and let me do whatever I want to them with a big smile. It's quite frankly stupid, immersion breaking, and makes the game shallow.

The AI need to care about what their goals are to win, what civilization they are playing as, and what their goals need to shift too.


Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Jun 2, 2022, 9:08:40 AM

I understand your point of view and I know that some games can indeed go on without a single war being waged at you, but luckily for me this has not happen all the time, I got also games where I had to give up the game because my neighbor just crushed me military and declared a surprise war on me.

If I can recommend you something to put yourself in a tighter spot during early stages of the game, try using Gilgamesh or the Ancestor as rivals, I don't know why but it seemed these two guys are coded differently, especially Gilgamesh... He will always gather a lor of production and gold and pump out a good amount of military, he especially loves Nubians, after that if you happen to be around him and most probably you will be the weakest player because you do not start with the bonuses the AI gets, he will launch not one but multiple surprise attacks, trust me if you don't pay attention to him, you might end up loosing the game.


It's true that we can download avatars, but I feel that they are not as competitive as some of the avatars included with the game, I would love for instance the introduction of Attila, Ivar the boneless and other tough military figures that can really pose you a threat right off the start.

I agree, the personality traits, all work the same way and end up being predictable, I would honestly prefer coding the rivals into the game to represent their world life ambitions, making them a bit less predictable.


Needs to be said though that programming AI is not an easy task and it keeps improving every year in the gaming industry, it takes time.

Do you still play Civ3? I think nostalgia might be affecting a bit your comparisons here.

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2 years ago
Jun 3, 2022, 12:53:21 AM
Sewata wrote:

Needs to be said though that programming AI is not an easy task and it keeps improving every year in the gaming industry, it takes time.

That's just not true.

AI from 20 years ago was far superior than what we have now. If anything, AI is a straight decline and downwards trend for the last 20 years. What developers are doing is finding easier ways to trick the player into thinking the AI is doing something credible, or thinking. When in reality it's just a gamey half hearted attempt.

The reason is because AI IS difficult to code, especially a good AI, but you know.. that SHOULD be the part of these games.. is a difficult, well rounded AI.. Yet the degredation and steady decline in difficulty, mechanics, and AI ability is a very obvious trend as a whole in gaming, especially as the gaming industry continues to massively dumb down games for the good of the "common gamer" who can't be bothered to think harder than "ohhh I press button I win yay me smart". The moment these large %'s of people come across ANYTHING in a game that results in them having to actually think, not only do they prove how inept they are at actually thinking as a human being, but they then go into a tirade about how the game is garbage, and trash because it's not auto winning for them, and things are "too difficult".

This is such a prevalent problem in todays gaming industry, that even Hard, and Very hard modes are easy, and are arbitrarily made "more difficult" by just throwing a carpet buff at the AI, rather than making them actually more intelligent, engaging, or difficult, which to anyone who doesn't have a brain issue can tell you doesn't actually make it more difficult. It just requires you have a bit more than you would need before, or to build up a bit longer than you would have before.. Nothing more, nothing less.

To put it into comparison, older games, "Normal" mode meant. "I understand the vast majority of the mechanics, and how to make them work together". Where as todays "Normal mode" means. "I just bought this game, didn't even do the tutorial and am pressing random buttons I like" and you can complete the game. Older games you'd of lost the game multiple times over with that mentality, until you actually learned how to use the mechanics in and out, and how to make them work together.

This again, is due to the prevelant degredation of the AI through time, as they become more simplified, dumbed down, and easy, with far less time being put into actually developing that part of the game.

It's a proven fact that development in games have switched from 90% of the focus being AI, mechanics, and actual gameplay, into 90% graphics, art, and marketing, where game-play, mechanics, and especially the AI are all at the bottom of the "ehhh we'll do what we can with the time that's left" logic.

Having been in the game industry for 10 years. Yes, that's how it is. AI is an after thought.




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2 years ago
Jun 3, 2022, 7:57:48 AM

Think Humankind did a relatevily good job at diminishing the importance of victory with its fame conditions. Now, when victory is not the end in itself, a well-thought AI trying to win can be more good then harm even for casual players. I agree with @LadyAthena on this part. The critique of the player base was a lil harsh though.. xD

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2 years ago
Jun 3, 2022, 10:27:41 AM
LadyAthena wrote:
Sewata wrote:

Needs to be said though that programming AI is not an easy task and it keeps improving every year in the gaming industry, it takes time.

That's just not true.

AI from 20 years ago was far superior than what we have now. If anything, AI is a straight decline and downwards trend for the last 20 years. What developers are doing is finding easier ways to trick the player into thinking the AI is doing something credible, or thinking. When in reality it's just a gamey half hearted attempt.

The reason is because AI IS difficult to code, especially a good AI, but you know.. that SHOULD be the part of these games.. is a difficult, well rounded AI.. Yet the degredation and steady decline in difficulty, mechanics, and AI ability is a very obvious trend as a whole in gaming, especially as the gaming industry continues to massively dumb down games for the good of the "common gamer" who can't be bothered to think harder than "ohhh I press button I win yay me smart". The moment these large %'s of people come across ANYTHING in a game that results in them having to actually think, not only do they prove how inept they are at actually thinking as a human being, but they then go into a tirade about how the game is garbage, and trash because it's not auto winning for them, and things are "too difficult".

This is such a prevalent problem in todays gaming industry, that even Hard, and Very hard modes are easy, and are arbitrarily made "more difficult" by just throwing a carpet buff at the AI, rather than making them actually more intelligent, engaging, or difficult, which to anyone who doesn't have a brain issue can tell you doesn't actually make it more difficult. It just requires you have a bit more than you would need before, or to build up a bit longer than you would have before.. Nothing more, nothing less.

To put it into comparison, older games, "Normal" mode meant. "I understand the vast majority of the mechanics, and how to make them work together". Where as todays "Normal mode" means. "I just bought this game, didn't even do the tutorial and am pressing random buttons I like" and you can complete the game. Older games you'd of lost the game multiple times over with that mentality, until you actually learned how to use the mechanics in and out, and how to make them work together.

This again, is due to the prevelant degredation of the AI through time, as they become more simplified, dumbed down, and easy, with far less time being put into actually developing that part of the game.

It's a proven fact that development in games have switched from 90% of the focus being AI, mechanics, and actual gameplay, into 90% graphics, art, and marketing, where game-play, mechanics, and especially the AI are all at the bottom of the "ehhh we'll do what we can with the time that's left" logic.

Having been in the game industry for 10 years. Yes, that's how it is. AI is an after thought.




Mate, I agree with you about how people wants the gaming experience to be too easy and not involve struggles at understanding complicated mechanics and complain right of the bat with heavy and judgemental words the games if they can not grasp their mechanics in an hour.


Must also be said though that some people play games as a mean of relaxing without raging every 15 minutes to the game because the game has a very hard entry level, it depends on what kind of game you are trying to create. 4x games are not the easiest when it comes to programming AI, how do you reflect the flexibility the forward thinking of a human mind into the game?

I'm not saying it can't be improved it definitely can but there will always be some limits, one of the downsides of the 4x genre is the fact that multiplayer games require a lot of set up and commitment, otherwise we could be challenging other humans and have a ton of fun.

Let's hope for a steady improvement, but I honestly haven't yet studied coding and programming an AI, so I can't leave a final judgement on whether it's not that hard or not, but I can immagine there is always room for improvement.

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2 years ago
Jun 3, 2022, 1:18:23 PM

I understand that this could lead you to a frustration or thinking that the AI is not mm good enough? People already mentioned but it is all about the player, sure, for the more "hardcore" ones the AI could be seen as "weak" and perhaps for others now is better.
If we change to the point like hey, lets make the "good AI" I can tell you that no one will win against them (once we tell them about the "meta" or the "exploits") so finding a balance i think is the difficult part, but the team is always improving it, so it is not an area that we just "leave behind".
This is not my field of expertise, just telling you as a player.

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2 years ago
Jun 4, 2022, 7:20:26 AM

I disagree with this. Had a interesting game last time I played. So at the beginning of the game I was building up slowly. There was two other nations on the continent with me. One was very aggressive. We had a war going and I didn't have much units, but I was holding my own for the most part. When the other nation wiped them out and forced them into a corner as their vassal. This nation was much bigger then me and took pity on me. They considered me a weaker nation that should be protected. Well so I just kind of built up a military thinking we were allies. Was going to help them in their war. But then they realized I was becoming too powerful and decided to put me in my place. Well luckily most of their armies we're across the way fighting another nation. So I swooped in and entered a long war with them. I eventually won out and took the continent forcing them to be my vassal. The other nation they were at war with was a warlike nation. They made a lot of enemies on their continent but they were more powerful then the others.  By this time, I owned a continent, the second continent was split between two nations one war like, one heavy influencer and a couple of stragglers conqoured and vassalized by the earlier nation. The third continent was a three way but two made an alliance and split the third territories forcing them to one city and the stronger of the two (heavy religious nation) vassalized them. At this point basically everyone was in an alliance except the warlike nation. Everyone hated them, so when I finally went over and beat them into submission no one cared. There was a long piece. But the influencer nations well influence was starting to take over. I didn't mind just built garrisons for stability and kept the piece. But eventually both nations started slowly breaking up the alliance. So I knew what was coming. The religious nation I didn't trust, as the original aggressive nation I faced had a city on their continent and I was afraid they get attacked. So I built up grievances slowly resolved the alliance and went to war with them. Well every nation and I men's every nation did not like that, even my vassals. But my vassals stayed in line and we went into a world war which lasted tell the end of the game and with me as the victor. That religious nation.....well I got them down to four cities and to prove my dominance I nuked them into oblivion. My vassals on the main continent didn't like this and that nation that took pity on me revolted. I bombed and nuked their cities into oblivion right before the game ended. With me in complete control. 


This was a comeback victory for me as this was also the game where I stayed as the Babylonians the entire game. So I was behind in a lot of things. But through alliances and setting up wars, I was able to win. And trust me that influencer nation as ahead of me throughout the entire game tell we went to war. Oh and the difficulty was nation.


Edit: forgot to mention something. During the giant world war as I would slowly take their territories, any territories I had undefended they were completely ransack or at least try. The third continent I took the statue of liberty from them. Oncr tensions started to rise again they decided it be a good idea to burn it down (one of the reasons I nuked the religious nation to oblivion). The influencer nation, I had a territory at there tail end that I took. While my forced were fighting the religious nation, they decided to burn it to the ground. They moved through the entire territory burning every single building. In the war for my continent again the bigger nation. I add a huge army wiped out because I went through a mountain pass to attack what I thought was a lone army. Nope they had three other armies waiting near by outside of my line of site. I was surrounded and annihilated. I save scummer that and see if I could get a different outcome and waited like 5 turns. They didn't move their armies at all. They were waiting for the ambush. The AI seems to be doing just fine to me personally.

Updated 2 years ago.
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