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What's the intended behavior when capturing uncompleted holy sites?

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2 years ago
Jun 21, 2022, 5:12:07 AM

This whole concept of capturing completed ones seems weird to me since it may or may not contradict the holy site limit. But I can see how it works. Uncompleted, though, I'm not sure what to make of. Got 2 in the same war, unable to build either of them, different incorrect tooltips. What's up with this?


(Also obligatory "fix the single tile deployment thing" comment)

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2 years ago
Jun 21, 2022, 1:26:18 PM

I'm also wondering right now what to do - just captured a basic shamanism one in my game, which led to me now not being able to build my own because the game wants to prioritize the captured one, but won't let me build it because its from a different empire.


Had a similar problem last game with a wonder. Captured an AI city that was building the pyramids but hadn't finished, so I had the unconstructed wonder for the whole game. If you could at least raze the damned thing...


Hope there'll be a fix for this at some point.

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2 years ago
Jun 21, 2022, 2:33:55 PM

You can't build shared project (temple/wonder) if territory is just occupied (has stripped color on large scale map), you must annex it as a war result. Also, territory with wonder/temple must be attached to a city - ut there is clear tooltip for it. 

Beyond that, I has no issues with completing captured wonder - I was even able to build two wonders and two holy sites- mine and captured - simultaneously!

Try to detach territory with wonder and then re-attach - probably this would help to complete it?


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2 years ago
Jun 21, 2022, 3:04:39 PM
Gummilion wrote:

You can't build shared project (temple/wonder) if territory is just occupied (has stripped color on large scale map), you must annex it as a war result. Also, territory with wonder/temple must be attached to a city - ut there is clear tooltip for it. 

Beyond that, I has no issues with completing captured wonder - I was even able to build two wonders and two holy sites- mine and captured - simultaneously!

Try to detach territory with wonder and then re-attach - probably this would help to complete it?

The war's long-over, for the "you don't control all territories" tooltip I guess it might be because I took that territory but left the rest of the city that had queued it (bug), for the one that says the territory is occupied I have no idea. I'll try the detach attach, that's just crazy enough to work

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 4:10:11 PM

What I don't like is (it seems to me...) that if you capture some holy sites, the enemy is able to build more holy sites because they are now under their limit. This leads to the AI having way too many holy sites. Both you and enemy are technically over the limit.

So I think how the game counts holy sites should be reconfigured.

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 4:36:51 PM
Dayvit78 wrote:

What I don't like is (it seems to me...) that if you capture some holy sites, the enemy is able to build more holy sites because they are now under their limit. This leads to the AI having way too many holy sites. Both you and enemy are technically over the limit.

So I think how the game counts holy sites should be reconfigured.

Yeah, it's a pretty nonsensical setup but I doubt it'll be touched until a religion DLC.

What they should really do is lock the holy sites to their religions and enforce the count per religion, where only the leader of the religion can place them and anyone with that religion can finish building them. Then even if you capture an enemy holy site it's still for their religion and you can at best mitigate or raze it. The starting holy site types are a bit hard to fit into this setup though.

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 4:47:16 PM
SpacesuitSpiff wrote:
Dayvit78 wrote:

What I don't like is (it seems to me...) that if you capture some holy sites, the enemy is able to build more holy sites because they are now under their limit. This leads to the AI having way too many holy sites. Both you and enemy are technically over the limit.

So I think how the game counts holy sites should be reconfigured.

Yeah, it's a pretty nonsensical setup but I doubt it'll be touched until a religion DLC.

What they should really do is lock the holy sites to their religions and enforce the count per religion, where only the leader of the religion can place them and anyone with that religion can finish building them. Then even if you capture an enemy holy site it's still for their religion and you can at best mitigate or raze it. The starting holy site types are a bit hard to fit into this setup though.

It would be nice if the grey circles that represent holy sites on the map were somehow colour-coded to show which religion they generate faith for.  I can get that a Monumental Cross generates faith for Christianity, but eyeballing Obelisks and Stone Rings is never easy, especially in captured territory.

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 5:04:10 PM
RedSirus wrote:
SpacesuitSpiff wrote:
Dayvit78 wrote:

What I don't like is (it seems to me...) that if you capture some holy sites, the enemy is able to build more holy sites because they are now under their limit. This leads to the AI having way too many holy sites. Both you and enemy are technically over the limit.

So I think how the game counts holy sites should be reconfigured.

Yeah, it's a pretty nonsensical setup but I doubt it'll be touched until a religion DLC.

What they should really do is lock the holy sites to their religions and enforce the count per religion, where only the leader of the religion can place them and anyone with that religion can finish building them. Then even if you capture an enemy holy site it's still for their religion and you can at best mitigate or raze it. The starting holy site types are a bit hard to fit into this setup though.

It would be nice if the grey circles that represent holy sites on the map were somehow colour-coded to show which religion they generate faith for.  I can get that a Monumental Cross generates faith for Christianity, but eyeballing Obelisks and Stone Rings is never easy, especially in captured territory.

I assumed they just generated faith for the local religion, is that not the case?

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 5:44:53 PM
SpacesuitSpiff wrote:
I assumed they just generated faith for the local religion, is that not the case?

Reading up on things in the Humankind wiki at Fandom.com, I actually don't know anymore, and I think you're right!


I was assuming that most sources of faith were "locked in" to the religion they spread, but I think I might be wrong about all of these:

- I'd thought conventional Holy Sites were locked to the religion they were built under (e.g., a specific Polytheism for Obelisks, Christianity for Crosses, etc.)

- I'd thought Faith-Producing districts like Sacrificial Altar (Aztec), Kaizerdom (Teutons), or Sultam Camii (Ottomans) generated faith for your State Religion, which you may change

- I'd thought ambient faith-from-territory granted by the Religious Hostility Civic or the Tradition Ideology generated faith for your State Religion

- I wasn't sure about Wonders-that-are-Holy-Sites, but figured they were either your State Religion, or locked to be a holy site for the State Religion that you were when they were built


But according to that wiki, all faith produced by a territory may be for its Majority Faith, which seems deeply counterintuitive.  If my state religion is Polytheism, but foreign Hinduism starts to take over my border territories, then do those border territories' EQs, Polytheist Obelisks, and even the Territorial Faith brought on my by own empire's Religious Hostility Civic and Traditionalism Ideology start to produce faith for Hinduism?  Am I contributing to my own being snowballed by a foreign religion and is it using my own traditionalism and hostility against me?

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 5:54:02 PM

But according to that wiki, all faith produced by a territory may be for its Majority Faith, which seems deeply counterintuitive.  If my state religion is Polytheism, but foreign Hinduism starts to take over my border territories, then do those border territories' EQs, Polytheist Obelisks, and even the Territorial Faith brought on my by own empire's Religious Hostility Civic and Traditionalism Ideology start to produce faith for Hinduism?  Am I contributing to my own being snowballed by a foreign religion and is it using my own traditionalism and hostility against me?

Man this game. Maybe someday they'll actually make a UI so we can see what's happening instead of wiki diving.

I don't totally hate the "weird viral spread" gameplay. Just had a game where I misplayed and had my cultural influence squashed in Ancient and that was pretty interesting to try to defend against. But yeah it'd take *heavy* justification for holy sites to work like that intuitively. A set of mechanics where you can mix some traditions of conquered religions into yours to benefit from their holy sites, or a way to mitigate the influence of their sites (or raze them, with some sort of outrage penalty).

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 6:14:53 PM
SpacesuitSpiff wrote:
Man this game.

Haha, in influence/faith snowballing, maybe yes. :)


I don't totally hate the "weird viral spread" gameplay either, but I would love to have more visibility and control over how it's done, and I'd love if the mechanisms for how faith and influence are spread would made it easier for all empires to have some protection against snowballing, and I'd love for more nuance in majority/minority religions in territories, which I know can come later.



SpacesuitSpiff wrote:
or raze them, with some sort of outrage penalty

Now there's a diplomatic grievance if ever I saw one!  :D

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 7:56:58 PM
RedSirus wrote:
[...] and I'd love for more nuance in majority/minority religions in territories, which I know can come later.

Much agreed. Most religions tend to disappear entirely and let only the one left get all the followers.

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2 years ago
Jun 22, 2022, 9:01:40 PM

I currently have a game where Polytheism is my state religion and Hinduism is starting to take over my boundaries (this wasn't a hypothetical example ^^').  I'll explore exactly what faith is being generated for each religion in my converted territories (+9 faith/territory from Tenets and Ideology).


I'm able to move into the Early Modern Era, too, so I can to run some tests tonight to see if the high-faith districts of the Ottomans or the Spanish are providing Polytheistic faith or Hindu faith in, and because I'm being overwhelmed, I can probably see if the faith they generate changes religions after the territory "turns".

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2 years ago
Jun 23, 2022, 4:58:45 AM

Good news!  The wiki is wrong, and it does look like our own buildings and policies generate faith for our state religion and not the dominant religion of the territory if the dominant religion is foreign.


Here's a recent settlement of mine (I am blue: Harrapans Polytheism), and I'm receiving +6 from the Main Plaza and +4 from my Ideology (Maximum Faith).  I am not receiving +5 Faith from "Religious Hostility" tenet within this territory, but I am receiving it on my other territories.  I'm not sure if it's intended or not, but it's not documented.  I feel like hostility should exist even where there's another majority religion, because that civic represents my empire's desire to push out foreign religion even where it's taken hold.





Likewise, after advancing to the Early Modern Era and creating Sultan Camii (a faith-generating EQ) in converted territories...  The camii generates faith for my state religion too.  It's not enough to reclaim the territory yet, but with a few more, it will be.


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2 years ago
Jun 23, 2022, 11:05:13 AM

What I see using the handy religion map mode is that:
EQs always generate faith for the owner's state religion.

Holy sites always generate faith for the religion of whoever finished building it (regardless of who first laid it down).

Wonders are mixed I think - some (maybe the ones considered holy sites) act like holy sites, others act like EQ.


This is what I see and base my actions on that. Please correct me if you notice it ottherwise.

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