Comparing the new Han Paper Mill to the other Classical Era EQs, it's somewhat underwhelming.  It's a little bit of industry and far less science.  Compared to the Greek and Maya EQs (which are admittedly very solid), it falls quite behind.  Most Classical EQs give +3 of their primary output, and further scaling bonuses on territories, adjacencies, etc.

Let's compare some "standard" Era II EQs.  I've left the base +3 yield alone and bolded the additional bonuses of each quarter.  Additional minor bonuses or disadvantages are in blue and red.

• Han: +3 Industry, +3 Science when leverage is collected* (also Exploits Industry and is a Makers Quarter but also requires a river)
• Maya: +3 Industry per territory, +2 Faith, +4 Industry per adjacent Makers Quarter (also Exploits Industry and is a Makers Quarter and a Religious Quarter and adds a Worker slot)
• Greek: +3 Science per Era (starts at 6), +1 Influence per Era (starts at 2), +2 Science per adjacent District (also a Research Quarter but does not exploit Science?)
• Mauryans: +3 Science, +2 Faith, +1 Influence and +2 Influence per adjacent district (also Exploits Science and is a Research Quarter and a religious Quarter and adds a Researcher slot)
• Celts: +3 Food per territory, +3 Faith, +3 Food per adjacent Farmers Quarter (also Exploits Food and is a Farmers Quarter and a Religious Quarter)

*The Han Paper Mill actually produces a Paper deposit, which I've rewritten as "+3 Science on intel pickup" to make the EQs read similarly.  Even with +3 Science on Intel Pickup, we can see the Paper Mill is weaker than the other districts.

Why is "+3 Science when leverage is collected" weak?

Intel pickups may become more common as the game progresses, but in the early game, an intel pickup may be less common than every ten turns, in which case each deposit of paper is worth 0.3 science per turn, which is one tenth of a Research Quarter's output.  Remember that all other EQs generate their yield every single turn, regardless of conditions or triggers. Assuming you collected intel one intel pickup every single turn for the rest of the game, a Paper Mill is still only worth "+3 Industry, +3 Science", which doesn't seem worth the stability penalty and district count that costs you to own it.

How could we make the Paper Mill a more compelling district?

A paper mill turns trees into paper, so some sort of bonus related to forests makes sense.  For example:

• +3 Industry/Money per adjacent Forests and Woodland (simple and understandable geographic adjacency, like a Zhou Confucian School or a Harbour)
• +1 Industry/Money on Forests and Woodlands in this territory (territory boosting like a Foggara or Grand Teahouse, this would be similar to building a second Logging Yard)
• +1 Industry/Money on Workers (a neat, early specialist boost, and one that gets even larger in the mega-cities that Together We Rule is trying to encourage)

Another clear improvement would be to remove the -10 stability penalty for the EQ and modify the paper luxury to provide a stability bonus like other "emblematic luxuries".  This helps continue Humankind's trend of "stable Chinese cultures" (like the Zhou and the Ming) but using a different mechanism: Because Paper is a luxury resource, its stability improvement would be felt empire-wide.

Thanks!

I thought this might be the case, and now that I've had my first playthrough as the Han, it definitely is. My map even had quite a few rivers and I still felt very limited in placement, and when I could place the mill, it still felt lackluster. I think it's worth noting, that the flat plus 3 industry puts it in par with the Cyclopean Fortress, a unqiue from the previous era, rather than competing with quarters of the same era. Ouch.

I like all of the changes RedSirus suggested! I really can't choose which one is the best, but some combination of money and science definitely feels right to me.

I've been meaning to discuss similar underwhelming aspects of the new cultures, but I've been too busy playing (goes to show the game is still fun).

Anyway thank you for highlighting this! It's very interesting to see these side-by-side comparisons. 

My initial thoughts when I chose the Han was, why doesn't this count as luxury! What a huge hit to stability for what reason? It's not a proper district since it doesn't add a worker slot. And many EQs count as two types of quarters, which this doesn't.

@RedSirus - Great suggestions.  I am appreciating your Kind and Enthusiastic suggestions regarding the new cultures and mechanics.  I haven't played the Swiss so I don't have much to input on your other thread, but I've played the Han a few times as their EU is dope, and because they're a secondary industry producer in the event that I've gone Olmecs or Sumerians in the first era.

I agree that the paper mill could be a bit more impactful.  The industry increase is nice, but one of the tricky parts of building it is in that early time period, your territories may have a river in them but not near the administrative center.  I've had it happen a few times now where I've had the option to build one, but no area to select because the river isn't close enough to my administrative center or harbor.

Someone mentioned the cyclopean fortress as a comparison, and I feel like a nice way to boost the paper mill could also be to allow it to be built along a river in your territory, regardless of connection to admin center.  You could then build some makers quarters off of it to get a nice little pocket of industry. 

After choosing han in the beta for the first time. I'm never choosing it again. The most exciting part "creating a luxury" becomes something that rarely happens due to placement and when it does its not even noticeable. Also 20% leverage discount does not ring excitement. There should be a second angle. Like 20% leverage discount AND archers get -10% cost and +1CS.

Hey, according to some of the feedbacks here, we are adjusting how their EQ works. It should come soon along some other changes concerning other cultures

Thanks again

Ben

benblond wrote:

Hey, according to some of the feedbacks here, we are adjusting how their EQ works. It should come soon along some other changes concerning other cultures

Thanks again

Ben

Look forward to seeing what you guys roll out!

benblond wrote:

Hey, according to some of the feedbacks here, we are adjusting how their EQ works. It should come soon along some other changes concerning other cultures

Thanks again

Ben

Do we have an ETA? And would you like some inputs? I have some ideas and could either create many separated threads (like my tweaking numbers posts) or make a bigger one with things I'd wish to see to balance the cultures.

RedSirus wrote:

tryptakid wrote:
Someone mentioned the cyclopean fortress as a comparison, and I feel like a nice way to boost the paper mill could also be to allow it to be built along a river in your territory, regardless of connection to admin center.  You could then build some makers quarters off of it to get a nice little pocket of industry.

Oh wow, I really like this idea.  Because the paper mill exploits industry, being able to place it off in the wilderness of some territories, where rivers run through forests, could give it seven productive tiles to exploit.  I’d still want to pair this with some other benefit (forest adjacency, making Paper good), but I love the idea of standalone mills away from the city.

Hey @tryptakid, congratulations!  Your idea of making the Han Paper Mill freely placed along a river made it into this week's patch.  I'm not sure if you can build off it, since the notes are sparse, but either way, it's either a new "Cyclopean Fortress" style district or an industrial hamlet.

- Han Chinese EQ:
-- Removing "+3 Industry"
-- Tweaking "+12 Science when an Intel is collected" (previous value = +3)
-- Allowed placing Paper Mills without adjacency to existing districts, as Hamlets. The River is still required