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Military Transport

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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 6:27:37 PM

To Devs, Please consider : Military units need to have a vehicle that can be purchased or tech that can transport them across the map. Maybe 5 units can fit in one transport vehicle and using 2 - 3 turns they can be efficiently transported across the map to the frontlines or where they are needed. There can also be a different or same transport vehicle for other units like builders, settlers. Maybe it takes a certain number of turns to get long distances and if you have a policy card it can go faster.


I am new to X4 games but I recently got into civ 6 and it is very irritating to move units across the map.


Later in the game you could also have planes transport units and parachute them where they are needed.


 Thank you

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 7:17:05 PM

So, basically like sea transport units in earlier civ games, just over land? Can you point to an example in real life? I frankly think the roads and railroads are the closest we are likely to get. Afterall, it's not like we were able to load catapults, cannons, or even large amounts of infantry onto horseback historically, they had to walk pretty much everywhere with at most some wagons to carry the tents and similar items. If you want to speed up transport, build some roads to get more movement from a single movement point. If it helps, if this works like Endless Legend you should be able to stack a limited number of units together and move them all at once.

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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 8:41:36 PM

I actually was hoping to use this with roads as the roads alone dont do very much. I just thought it would be cool to put your military into a horse pulled carriage and then transport them where you want. I guess I imagined the romans. 


You mentioned stacking units together and moving them all at once, can you do this in civ 6?



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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 9:53:56 PM

The closest thing to stacking I have seen in Civ 6 is planes on airfields and carriers.


I would recommend looking into Endless Legend for examples to what Humankind is leaning towards, as it is made by the same people.

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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 10:11:50 PM

Moving an army slowly across the land, for most of the game, is going to be the norm. With few exceptions, armies moved on foot, in large groups, with pack animals, carts, or wagons hauling their supplies, and as time went on, more and more Heavy Stuff like ammunition, cannon, the officers' servants and mistresses to slow things down even more.

And God Forbid the Monarch decided to accompany the army, with all of his household, servants, sycophants, ministers, family, et al.: Snails would laugh at you as they surged past.

A Roman Legionary Army, using good Roman roads, still only averaged 15 - 18 miles a day. Less well organized and experienced troops went even slower.

Before railroads, the best ways to speed things up came down to three:

1.   Put everybody on horses. 'Cavalry' armies like Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Comanches could move much faster than 'regular' armies. BUT if you are not an entire culture on horseback, like those folks just mentioned, providing all those horses and training everybody to ride is really, really expensive. Not ony in direct Gold costs, but Indirect Costs like having hundreds of square kilometers of good farmland devoted to pastures for horses - after a certain point, you are starving your people in favor of your horses, and the people tend to take rebellious exception to that.

2.   Put everybody on boats. Where you can do it, even primitive boat travel on rivers is a lot faster than on land. Again, it gets expensive to provide all the boats, but more importantly, of course, you can only go where there is water in the form of coast or river.

3.   Put a Pushy General in charge. Historically there were quite a few commanders who could get troop units and whole armies to move much faster than anybody else could. Sometimes stunningly so. Thomas Jackson's army called themselves "Foot Cavalry" because on foot they were outdistancing mounted troops. Issa Pliev (Soviet Army in WWII) regularly moved his horse cavalry division, corps, and army group faster than neighboring mechanized and motorixed forces. Napolen's entire army could outmarch any other army in Europe, by a combination of better organization and a whole Corps of Very Pushy Generals - Napoleon I and his Marshals.


Hopefully, Humankind will expand on the EL system of 're-equipping' troops and troop units so that, if you have the resources, you could put a larger portion of your army on horseback as a 'Corps Volante" - "Flying Column". Peter I of Russia did this in 1708, putting several regiments of infantry on horseback so they could move faster, then having them dismount to fight. Dragoons, when they were first organized in Europe, were men on cheap horses which they only used for rapid movement, dismounting to fight. They were used a lot as scouts and to seize some important terrain feature, like a bridge, ahead of the Main Army.

As mentioned above, permanently mounting most of your army, unless they are already all horsemen providing their own horses, should be much too expensive for most states.

I also hope that Humankind makes use of a General/Great General system in which some Generals are really, really good at moving troops, so that you can put a force under a Jackson or a Pliev and Turn Them Loose while the rest of your army 'follows up'.



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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 10:25:39 PM

Civ stopped loading stacks of land units onto transports after Civ IV, and I say good riddance to that. I disliked the tedium of simulated logistical nightmares. 

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5 years ago
Oct 15, 2019, 10:47:02 PM
EaglePursuit wrote:

Civ stopped loading stacks of land units onto transports after Civ IV, and I say good riddance to that. I disliked the tedium of simulated logistical nightmares. 

A game of Logistics in History is not a game, it is Punishment For Your Sins. IF we have to model Supply, let's make it as Invisible as possible by just modeling the Consequences of Lack of Supply without wading through a Swamp of Supply Units, Lines, and Depots.

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5 years ago
Oct 16, 2019, 6:16:53 AM
IvantheTolerable wrote:

Moving an army slowly across the land, for most of the game, is going to be the norm. With few exceptions, armies moved on foot, in large groups, with pack animals, carts, or wagons hauling their supplies, and as time went on, more and more Heavy Stuff like ammunition, cannon, the officers' servants and mistresses to slow things down even more.

And God Forbid the Monarch decided to accompany the army, with all of his household, servants, sycophants, ministers, family, et al.: Snails would laugh at you as they surged past.

A Roman Legionary Army, using good Roman roads, still only averaged 15 - 18 miles a day. Less well organized and experienced troops went even slower.

Before railroads, the best ways to speed things up came down to three:

1.   Put everybody on horses. 'Cavalry' armies like Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Comanches could move much faster than 'regular' armies. BUT if you are not an entire culture on horseback, like those folks just mentioned, providing all those horses and training everybody to ride is really, really expensive. Not ony in direct Gold costs, but Indirect Costs like having hundreds of square kilometers of good farmland devoted to pastures for horses - after a certain point, you are starving your people in favor of your horses, and the people tend to take rebellious exception to that.

2.   Put everybody on boats. Where you can do it, even primitive boat travel on rivers is a lot faster than on land. Again, it gets expensive to provide all the boats, but more importantly, of course, you can only go where there is water in the form of coast or river.

3.   Put a Pushy General in charge. Historically there were quite a few commanders who could get troop units and whole armies to move much faster than anybody else could. Sometimes stunningly so. Thomas Jackson's army called themselves "Foot Cavalry" because on foot they were outdistancing mounted troops. Issa Pliev (Soviet Army in WWII) regularly moved his horse cavalry division, corps, and army group faster than neighboring mechanized and motorixed forces. Napolen's entire army could outmarch any other army in Europe, by a combination of better organization and a whole Corps of Very Pushy Generals - Napoleon I and his Marshals.


Hopefully, Humankind will expand on the EL system of 're-equipping' troops and troop units so that, if you have the resources, you could put a larger portion of your army on horseback as a 'Corps Volante" - "Flying Column". Peter I of Russia did this in 1708, putting several regiments of infantry on horseback so they could move faster, then having them dismount to fight. Dragoons, when they were first organized in Europe, were men on cheap horses which they only used for rapid movement, dismounting to fight. They were used a lot as scouts and to seize some important terrain feature, like a bridge, ahead of the Main Army.

As mentioned above, permanently mounting most of your army, unless they are already all horsemen providing their own horses, should be much too expensive for most states.

I also hope that Humankind makes use of a General/Great General system in which some Generals are really, really good at moving troops, so that you can put a force under a Jackson or a Pliev and Turn Them Loose while the rest of your army 'follows up'.



thanks for the info. What would you say is the best way to learn the game mechanics so that I can more effectively apply strategies. I have spent several weeks trying to learn civ 6 and I still feel I have only learned 30% there is a lot of depth to the game. The only reason I made the effort to learn it is so I can be better to play humankind. I am guessing a lot of the game mechanics will be similar?  maybe I can add you guys on steam so I can have someone to talk to about the game


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5 years ago
Oct 16, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
badboy07 wrote:

To Devs, Please consider : Military units need to have a vehicle that can be purchased or tech that can transport them across the map. Maybe 5 units can fit in one transport vehicle and using 2 - 3 turns they can be efficiently transported across the map to the frontlines or where they are needed. There can also be a different or same transport vehicle for other units like builders, settlers. Maybe it takes a certain number of turns to get long distances and if you have a policy card it can go faster.


I am new to X4 games but I recently got into civ 6 and it is very irritating to move units across the map.


Later in the game you could also have planes transport units and parachute them where they are needed.


 Thank you

Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Oct 16, 2019, 5:01:46 PM
wilbefast wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

This intrigues me. I know certain techs usually are needed to cross open bodies of water, but perhaps it is a little more than that? Will we get techs that allow you to make roads up and down cliffs? Perhaps certain terrain types such as deserts or jungles can actually stop or even hurt some units (forests stop cavalry, deserts hurt units due to thirst) unless you either have a culture that negates this or you research a particular tech that overcomes this? Will we eventually get to travel over mountains? I'm thinking of how Hannibal was able to somehow get his elephants over the mountains, is that a trait of the "great general" or a tech you can research?

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5 years ago
Oct 16, 2019, 5:43:16 PM
wilbefast wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

I assumed you folks were staying with the EL 'Army' stacks of varying sizes, especially after seeing a 'Tactical Layout' on one of the released images for HK.

"Fast Means of Transportation". I can think of several Technologies right off the bat:

1.   Road Building. Not just Romans, but a number of people as different as the Gallic Celts and Persians built good, all or mostly all-weather roads, which sped up the movement of both Trade and Armies. Takes Maintenance, though, so it also increases the cost of your Empire and Military.

2.   More Road Building. About the end of the 18th century CE a Scotman named MacAdam invented a method of building good hard-surfaced all-weather roads using 'natural' materials - gravel, small stones - rather than major masonry (Roman Roads were called "Walls lying on their sides"). In English, we still refer to hard road surfaces as Macadam even though, in fact, they are technically Tarmac or Concrete.

3.   Better Vehicles. Early carts and wagons were both fragile and heavy for the amount they could carry - and, famously, early horse collars were excruciating inefficient because they choked the horses as they pulled. Leather springing, better axle-wheel interface, better collars, all made transport of supplies for armies much faster and more efficient.

4.   Railroads. The Quantum Change in all land transportation. Before railroads, you could at best move 2 tons 25 - 30 kilometers a day by wagon - if you had a decent road. With even a primitive railroad and locomotive, you could move 50 - 100 tons 200 kilometers a day and keep doing it day after day without having to rest the horses. If the game does not model the Revolution to transportation, Trade,  warfare, and population movement caused by the Railroad, it will be missing a major component of the Industrial Age and everything that followed.

5.   Internal Combustion. Specifically, motorization, at first to haul heavy weapons, artillery, and supplies for the armies, then to move the armies themselves, then to 'self-propell' weapons which resulted in tanks, mechanized infantry, and all the other Roadies of modern warfare. Like Railroads, this all requires expensive and constant upkeep (maintenance and Fuel) and also a major Industrial Base to build the equipment in the first place. This second factor has been Overlooked in previous 4x historical gaming. Just for a single glaring example, in 1939 - 45 there were about 50 'states' in the world, but only 6 of them (FYI: USA, Germany Great Britain, USSR, France) managed to design and manufacture a medium tank (20 tons weight or heavier) during World War Two. And, of course, only two of those managed to provide motorized transport for their entire armies: USA and UK.

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5 years ago
Oct 16, 2019, 9:25:04 PM
IvantheTolerable wrote:
wilbefast wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

I assumed you folks were staying with the EL 'Army' stacks of varying sizes, especially after seeing a 'Tactical Layout' on one of the released images for HK.

stacks.

I think they are, I'd assume "entity" here means the stack, not the number of units in the stack, so what they meant was, you'll be moving 5-6 stacks instead of 20-30 individual units.

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5 years ago
Oct 28, 2019, 3:58:38 PM
afarteta93 wrote:
IvantheTolerable wrote:
wilbefast wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

I assumed you folks were staying with the EL 'Army' stacks of varying sizes, especially after seeing a 'Tactical Layout' on one of the released images for HK.

stacks.

I think they are, I'd assume "entity" here means the stack, not the number of units in the stack, so what they meant was, you'll be moving 5-6 stacks instead of 20-30 individual units.

can anyone explain to me what is a stack or how do you create one I am still learning civ 6 and only got in to it to prepare myself for humankind as I have never played a X4 game before?


It is interesting because I have spent 4 weeks learning the game and still feel I have only learned like 30% and even then I have not fully understood the mid game and late game tech tree. The problem I am currently having is I can decently dominate the other civs on my continent but congo on the other continent is getting close to a win and because he is on another continent I dont know what strategy is used to one get there and two how do I establish a military once I get there? 



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5 years ago
Oct 28, 2019, 4:47:20 PM
badboy07 wrote:
afarteta93 wrote:
IvantheTolerable wrote:
wilbefast wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts everyone :)


Going to chime in very quickly here: first of all because we stack units together to form armies you'll be moving 5-6 entities around rather than 20-30. This should already make a pretty big difference. We do also plan to have faster means of transportation in the mid- to late-game, but these probably won't take the form of transport units: we don't want player to have to micro-manage specialised transport ship units around to pick up and drop of their armies. Instead you'll research technologies and set up infrastructure that will speed up your movements and allow armies to move across areas they couldn't previously enter.

I assumed you folks were staying with the EL 'Army' stacks of varying sizes, especially after seeing a 'Tactical Layout' on one of the released images for HK.

stacks.

I think they are, I'd assume "entity" here means the stack, not the number of units in the stack, so what they meant was, you'll be moving 5-6 stacks instead of 20-30 individual units.

can anyone explain to me what is a stack or how do you create one I am still learning civ 6 and only got in to it to prepare myself for humankind as I have never played a X4 game before?


It is interesting because I have spent 4 weeks learning the game and still feel I have only learned like 30% and even then I have not fully understood the mid game and late game tech tree. The problem I am currently having is I can decently dominate the other civs on my continent but congo on the other continent is getting close to a win and because he is on another continent I dont know what strategy is used to one get there and two how do I establish a military once I get there? 



A stack is multiple units occupying a single tile, moving together and receiving orders as if they are a single unit.

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5 years ago
Oct 28, 2019, 6:14:49 PM

It should be pointed out that the stacks have a maximum number of units they can hold that can be increased using techs.

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