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Why aggression is very effective, while city defense is not (to Amplitude devs)

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3 years ago
Sep 10, 2021, 6:42:21 AM

Hello.

The early rush is very effective.

About the current meta in multiplayer,


It's clear that early aggression is very effective. It is very difficult to get rid of it. When used with Nubians and Aksumites, it is even more effective because :


- The Nubian archer is the best unit in antiquity. Cheap, +4 strength (because indirect fire is as powerful as direct fire), it makes it a universally useful unit, in any battlefield, up to medieval units (and even then, in the Middle Ages the only alternative is the English archer, so it may still be useful in this era).


- The Shotelai is a swordsman, with +2 in strength, the same price, and its super zone of control. I believe that no unit ignores the zone of control, even tanks and other heavy cavalry are subject to it. As a result, it effectively protects archers. It remains possible to reach it I think, but more difficult


The other advantage of the Shotelai is its low price, and its quick availability in the classical era (iron work). Unlike the Roman praetorian, for example.



Let's see now the advantages to aggression :


- By massing an army at home, one is protected against any rush coming to target us, naturally.


- By sending your army near the enemy city, either you are directly near his city, and in this case he has almost already won, because your production will be blocked. Or you decide to come and meet his army, to try to fight away from your city. This is a pity, because defending a city is supposed to be much easier than defending yourself in the wild. There is no point in building walls, no point in thinking defensively. If any fighting, let alone siege, blocks the entire production of your city, the enemy has almost already won. Because while the battle is going on, the aggressor will be able to reinforce the battlefield with his units produced in two cities, while you will only be able to bring units from one city. Not to mention the fact that your units will normally be inferior to your enemy's (Nubian archer and shotelai).


- The strategy is simply to produce lots of units, and keep producing until you win. You mainly produce nubian archer and then as soon as you can, you make shotelai. You can also produce warriors, which you will upgrade as soon as technology and iron are available. Considering the amount of gold a Nubian can produce, this is viable.


- On the other hand, in a defensive position, the advantages of defense are actually quite low. You won't have the protection of your city walls. Nor of your militia. Unless you are willing to sacrifice your city's production, which is a stupid "choice". The enemy doesn't even need to take your city, he can simply besiege it.


Since the units produced on the other side are, for the same cost, more efficient, your "defensive advantage" will not exist. The reality is that you will have to manage to fight outside your city, and with more units than this aggression if you hope to survive. So you'll have to produce a lot of units, more than you would on the other side.



In the end, I have no criticism of the current meta. That the rush is effective is fine. What's wrong is that you can't rely on your cities to defend yourself. That's what's wrong. Playing defensively would mean that you could resist an attack with fewer units.


In reality, two things would have to change for defensive play to be viable: 


- If there is a fight near a city, production should never be blocked. First of all, this makes no sense. Because the city is not blocked, it is just a battle.


- In case of a siege, the production of the city should be able to continue, but only with its internal districts, i.e. not the huts operated outside the city, and not the FIMSI brought in by the city's annex regions. We should be able to produce units even in case of a siege, if we have enough time, population and production. At the very least, you should be able to build buildings. In Endless Legend, in case of a siege, all the squares outside the city were no longer used. But the squares inside were productive.


This is what should be possible in Humankind, to make the defensive game and the use of walls really viable.

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3 years ago
Sep 10, 2021, 8:55:59 AM

I think you are overexagerating because you saw a player(me) do this strategy with much success against weaker players.


-You should mention that in that game where he almost won, your capital city was 2 hexes next to the border with my territory.
-You say that defending a city has no point, even tho you didn't try to setup a defense, You're just siming most of your games. I never saw you building tier 2 walls.
-Building armies has a industrial and population cost and any serious player should invest in it to keep their assets. even in peace period.
-Positionning your city and scouting to see things happen and have time to react. Invading foreign city take time with travel when defensivly, you spawn unit home with no travel time.
-Choosing your engagement, initiative is always an advantage and you should setup your troups to have it.
-As far as I know, combat stops building and recruiting in its area, if you build on an outpost or a bastion away from the battle, it still works

In conclusion, your 'meta' is just an early opinion based on a poor sample of games that you saw (actually 2).
Tbh, I would have done better with Mycean/Harappean/Egyptian start.
And everyone can expand agressivly and sim at this point, but in multiplayer, you actually need to see what others do and react (wow who would have thought humans are smarter than ai)
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5 months ago
Jul 17, 2024, 3:03:05 PM

Only Besiging the city should block City production, the man who created idea that battle of 2 scouts near city, block its prod should change his way of thinking and pray to God sometimes ;)


https://mod.io/g/humankind/m/quick-battles

This mod bring battles to one turn making:

no blocking players/cities if no besiged

no blocking reinforcments spots (each battle starts with new turn)

flanking is bit harder cuz u have 3 rounds only and need to start from begginng next turn, it have some + and -

devs dont add options for modders to add rounds to battle per turn  so we cant change that :)

Updated 5 months ago.
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