Finished my first game on Metropolis today. It looks like the pace of era development is faster than science pace (I got to "industrial" period while just discovering flintlock). It feels uncanny - the era progression doesn't feel as organic to the game when it's not reflected in scientific advancement.

Not sure how to solve this - maybe make some discoveries a requirement for era advancement?

Hey @dr_boom,
I have a couple of questions: On which speed did you play? and, Which cultures did you play during that game?

Daarkarr0w wrote:

Hey @dr_boom,
I have a couple of questions: On which speed did you play? and, Which cultures did you play during that game?

I thought this is was one of the common complaints on the site honestly? It's way too easy to get stars in any culture. The AI especially regularly reaches Contemporary Era before touching the Industrial tech tree. 

I mean honestly, game speed and culture choice is kind of besides the point. Yea, a player who chained consecutive science-cultures should researched more tech than a player who didn't, but the primary, or maybe only, thing that qualifies a society as being in a given era is their scientific and technological advancement. If a people don't already have industiral machinery you're not going to say they've reached the industrial era, no matter what else they've done. Likewise a people for whom scientific advancement is the only thing they've done would still have reached the industrial era despite doing nothing else, which isn't possible in game since science only gives 3 stars towards the requirement.

If the inherent attachment of scientific progress and what it means to be in an era is something we're going to worry about, then even the people with the lowest (read: basically no) investment in science should still be ready to do *era* techs by the time the reach it, and if they aren't they don't reach it.

But we could also decide to just not care about the disconnect I suppose.

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

I thought this was the most obvious and best solution. It's abit jarring when you become the Japanese and build Electronic factories before discovering Electricity.

sadhukar wrote:

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

I thought this was the most obvious and best solution. It's abit jarring when you become the Japanese and build Electronic factories before discovering Electricity.

Well for that note, it would make sense if 
A) certain buildings had strategic resource requirements
B) Emblematic buildings, all or some, where upgrades to regular buildings like emblematic units are (in the tech tree) instead of just being uniquely available. So something like an electronic factory would be an upgrade of a building from a tech that required electricity to get to.

But would that be a good idea for gameplay in addition to making conceptual sense?

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

Nice idea. For now, mods like 14 stars requirement are nice to help on that. And enjoy an higher duration of the gameplay of a era.

Daarkarr0w wrote:

Hey @dr_boom,
I have a couple of questions: On which speed did you play? and, Which cultures did you play during that game?

Hello! played on normal. Progression was Hittites -> Celts -> [forgot] -> Ottomans 

Enchanteur wrote:

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

Nice idea. For now, mods like 14 stars requirement are nice to help on that. And enjoy an higher duration of the gameplay of a era.

On the other hand, requiring tech progression reduces gameplay flexibility.  What if I want to be a brutal barbarian on horseback up to the contemporary era? I suppose that would be a legit gameplay choice today and requiring tech progression goes against that.

(I realize that's a point against my original feedback)

dr_boom wrote:

Enchanteur wrote:

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

Nice idea. For now, mods like 14 stars requirement are nice to help on that. And enjoy an higher duration of the gameplay of a era.

On the other hand, requiring tech progression reduces gameplay flexibility.  What if I want to be a brutal barbarian on horseback up to the contemporary era? I suppose that would be a legit gameplay choice today and requiring tech progression goes against that.

(I realize that's a point against my original feedback)

I would argue that requiring tech progression to advance and not focusing on science as a militaristic culture would be better represented under this system and would give incentive to ransack research quarters for the science, benefit from science osmosis events, etc. Going "only war" route is very effective and would remain to be so, yet no longer would you be able to ignore science entirely as you paint the map. 

dr_boom wrote: 
On the other hand, requiring tech progression reduces gameplay flexibility.  What if I want to be a brutal barbarian on horseback up to the contemporary era? I suppose that would be a legit gameplay choice today and requiring tech progression goes against that.

Tragopan wrote:

I would argue that requiring tech progression to advance and not focusing on science as a militaristic culture would be better represented under this system and would give incentive to ransack research quarters for the science, benefit from science osmosis events, etc. Going "only war" route is very effective and would remain to be so, yet no longer would you be able to ignore science entirely as you paint the map. 

An important thought to have regarding factions that didn't do much science investement, especially military ones who have acted as such:

You don't have to invent the wheel if you steal some from somebody who did. Not only do you have some now, you can know how to make more without having done the process of creating the idea. One way or another technological advancements already made by someone else make their way to everyone. Only one person needs to discover/invent new things, then soon enough everyone knows about and has access to it. Reflecting that in game in the direct manner of everyone else just getting any tech a few turns after somebody else got it wouldn't have been good for the game though, but it still means factions would advance to the next era, including in the sense of technological advancement, having done none of the scientific progress. They just got it from the people who did.
Additionally, landlocked powers would never develop ships. They'd never think about ships. Riverboats maybe, but not ocean capable vessels. People's that don't deal with the ocean until late enough that the world is already in the industrial age aren't going to develop age of sail vessels, they're going to skip straight to industrial vessels. Which in game would equate as never researching the earlier sailing techs, making either Propeller or even Landing Craft the first oceanic tech they get.

I believe this is precisely why the topmost science-progression line makes a low-tech-count bypass path through earlier eras, to allow players, human or AI, to play a low science style and still advance eras, and still actually use era appropriate tech.

TheSong wrote:

dr_boom wrote: 
On the other hand, requiring tech progression reduces gameplay flexibility.  What if I want to be a brutal barbarian on horseback up to the contemporary era? I suppose that would be a legit gameplay choice today and requiring tech progression goes against that.

Tragopan wrote:

I would argue that requiring tech progression to advance and not focusing on science as a militaristic culture would be better represented under this system and would give incentive to ransack research quarters for the science, benefit from science osmosis events, etc. Going "only war" route is very effective and would remain to be so, yet no longer would you be able to ignore science entirely as you paint the map. 

An important thought to have regarding factions that didn't do much science investement, especially military ones who have acted as such:

You don't have to invent the wheel if you steal some from somebody who did. Not only do you have some now, you can know how to make more without having done the process of creating the idea. One way or another technological advancements already made by someone else make their way to everyone. Only one person needs to discover/invent new things, then soon enough everyone knows about and has access to it. Reflecting that in game in the direct manner of everyone else just getting any tech a few turns after somebody else got it wouldn't have been good for the game though, but it still means factions would advance to the next era, including in the sense of technological advancement, having done none of the scientific progress. They just got it from the people who did.
Additionally, landlocked powers would never develop ships. They'd never think about ships. Riverboats maybe, but not ocean capable vessels. People's that don't deal with the ocean until late enough that the world is already in the industrial age aren't going to develop age of sail vessels, they're going to skip straight to industrial vessels. Which in game would equate as never researching the earlier sailing techs, making either Propeller or even Landing Craft the first oceanic tech they get.

I believe this is precisely why the topmost science-progression line makes a low-tech-count bypass path through earlier eras, to allow players, human or AI, to play a low science style and still advance eras, and still actually use era appropriate tech.

Like eras being tied to overall science progression of everyone like in civ VI?

Currently I use a mod to increase era stars needed to 10 or 12, might be a bit too much however I wish the game had rubberbanding mechanics that gave more stars to those that are very behind and science osmosis helping more those than the ones at the lead.

The game already hands out stars to those behind - which isn't really helping, imo, just makes sure everyone rushed to at least industrial, despite barely having discovered gunpowder during late game.

I agree that the science osmosis does need to happen a lot more, it needs to work both ways, so it sips from more advanced to less no matter who is influencing who, and there could be science cost reduction for techs that are widely spread/from earlier eras then the world is in (i.e. at least half players reached Early Modern Era? Tech up to Medieval becomes easier to research; at least "insert arbitrary number" players reached XYZ tech? It becomes cheaper for every additional player who researched it after that). There should be threshold at which being one of the first to something gives an advantage, but upon reaching it everyone else catching up should have easier time.

I'm working on a mod that adds more star types and more science stars. I'm also riddled by various target variables such as TechnologicalEraOffset.

Sublustris wrote:

Curiously, EL and ES2 already had solution to that problem. In EL you had to unlock 9 techs from current and previous eras, before you could unlock next one. And in ES2 you had to unlock half of tech from current stage before unlocking previous. I guess era stars alone are not enough. It would be logical to add secondary mandatory requirement to research number of key technologies that lead you directly to next era, on top of era stars. Like, there are from 4 to 8 tech links in tree between every two eras. Add a requirement to research and unlock half of those links, and problem of Eras outpacing scientific advancements will never come again.

Something like this would be very welcome as of right now I often observe AI advancing to the next era long before they are technologicaly ready, this problem becomes especialy problematic at the later eras