Logo Platform
logo amplifiers simplified

Brainstorming "Wide Empire" vs "Tall Empire" traits

Reply
Copied to clipboard!
3 years ago
Jun 8, 2022, 10:53:10 PM

Many 4X games feature factions built around "wide empires" (lots of average cities) vs. "tall empires" (having fewer cities but more potent ones).  Amplitudes' own Endless Legend and Endless Space franchises pushed these in extreme (and well-balanced and playable!) directions with the Cultists, Mykara, Allayi, Umbral Choir, Cravers, and more, where the playstyle didn't focus on building a moderate amount of balanced cities/systems.


Humankind has to be different in this regard, since your culture and traits change over the course of the game, but there's still potential to have cultures whose traits tip you towards wide vs. tall empires.  Most obviously, I think, the Achaemenid Persians +2 City Cap sets you up early on for a wider empire than anyone else.  What abilities might we see from new cultures (or new Civics or Tenets) that could boost a tall or wide empire?


The challenge of "Tall" traits, of course, is to come up with benefits that don't also benefit wide empires. Most 4Xs do this with faction-specific penalties on "tall factions" to discourage sprawl. Humankind absolutely shouldn't work this way, and would require "tall" benefits that only activate with a small number of cities, or that simply don't benefit building too many.



Tall Empire Possibilities

- +X (30-60?) Stability on your # largest/earliest cities.

- A significant "Attach Outpost" discount (more than the Mauryans) to encourage fewer, larger cities

- Reduce the stability penalty for attached territories from -20 to -10  (In a way, the Ming do this already with their Grand Teahouse) to encourage fewer cities to fill the same amount of territory

- FIMS% improvement (+10%, +20%, maybe +25%?) as long as your city count remains low.

- Benefits to Liberating your cities into Independent Peoples




Wide Empire Possibilities

- City Cap increase (already present with the Achaemenid Persians)

- Flat stability bonus on cities (also A.P.)

- Movement benefits within own territory to encourage spread and control

- Influence cost discounts founding distant outposts and/or influence cost discounts on converting outposts to cities.  (Bantu already have a sort of influence-free outpost, which is neat!)

- Late-era (IV+) garrison-EQs that can be built in outposts — like the Dunnu — for claiming and defending wide areas of territory into the later game

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Jun 8, 2022, 11:23:18 PM
I like the ideas you mention and while the question is aimed at speculating on future traits one might see on newer cultures, I wanted to take it another step and give different ideas to boost any culture planning to go wide or tall.

I'd propose two ideas though both are based around Districts and would require reworking how that works. The fundamental goal behind both is the same: wide empires have more cities but each city has fewer districts on them, conversely tall empires have less cities but can build more districts on them.

First option would be changing the Industry cost formula: make it so the number of districts already built in the city has a smaller impact on the cost while simultaneously adding a new factor that would be total number of districts in the empire. Like I said the formula would need to change and make it so in general it is cheaper to build districts to a certain point compared to the current system. After that, building districts in multiple cities will become more expensive than building in the same city. To compensate, the bonuses to district cost currently in the game could be specialized to providing discounts on the total number of districts on empire or on city (wide vs tall).

Second option is that instead of having Industry cost as the soft cap for district construction, we now have a hard cap that limits how many districts you can have in a city. Basing that hard cap on Population is tricky given how volatile that resource is, so instead it could be determined by more stable factors such as certain technologies, current era and number of attached territories. In addition you could have other ways to raise this cap such as civics, religious tenets and empire traits. Regardless to compensate the district industry cost could be lowered since the spam potential will be limited differently now. In addition, it would probably be a good idea to exempt Emblematic Districts from this hard cap, so that you are always able to build those for all your cultures (they are already limited anyways).
Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Jun 9, 2022, 8:22:31 AM
Arkalis wrote:
First option would be changing the Industry cost formula: make it so the number of districts already built in the city has a smaller impact on the cost while simultaneously adding a new factor that would be total number of districts in the empire. Like I said the formula would need to change and make it so in general it is cheaper to build districts to a certain point compared to the current system. After that, building districts in multiple cities will become more expensive than building in the same city. To compensate, the bonuses to district cost currently in the game could be specialized to providing discounts on the total number of districts on empire or on city (wide vs tall).

I've suggested something similar, previously, but with the intention of limiting snowballing of empires with many territories. I am conflicted though, as the current system "makes sense".


However, doesn't Humankind have two possible types of "tall" build? One based on cities and one based on territories?


The current district cost formula balances many small cities (few territories) with more districts versus few large cities with fewer districts, yet better utilisation of infrastructure.

Should a few small - but dense - cities be a viable option?

0Send private message
3 years ago
Jun 9, 2022, 8:52:08 AM
SudoPotato wrote:
The current district cost formula balances many small cities (few territories) with more districts versus few large cities with fewer districts, yet better utilisation of infrastructure.

This is a very healthy thought! IMO the core of city building and development is solid now. The only thing about cities with lots of territories is defensive infrastructure. Garrisons become super costly with all those territories attached and defence of your far borders can become very difficult. I'd like to see a trait unlocked by technology that gives +1/+2 CS around administrative centre. There is already that kind of tech for the outposts.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Jun 9, 2022, 1:33:43 PM
SudoPotato wrote:
However, doesn't Humankind have two possible types of "tall" build? One based on cities and one based on territories?

This is really something I love about Humankind:  Attaching territories means one city can cover an enormous area, while in earlier/other 4Xs, you'd be claiming territories by plopping down less useful cities and the late game would be one of city-bloat.



The idea behind this thread wasn't monkeying with the game's mechanics of district building — like many people, I think we're at a pretty solid algorithm right now.  Idea was more "What simple Trait/Tenet/Civic decisions could be introduced to let you focus on wide vs tall?"



I realized last night that Civics are perfect for this sort of either/or option, of course, because you can only choose one and so the cost in going one way is the lost opportunity of choosing the other.  There's already a degree of Wide-vs-Tall built into some early civics, which is nice: Leadership (Small Council vs. Autarch) is a kind of wide vs. tall, where Small Council's +1 City Cap is great for "wide", and Autarch's +25 Stability on Capital is more "tall" (though I'd love for it to be +20 on all cities, because your capital is the city that already has stability boosts over the rest of the empire).  The rest of the Government Civic tree actually does a decent job of wide/tall decisions, with One Party State halving the stability penalty of territories, and the end-tier Gov.Civics each providing different sorts of stability bonuses.  I'll admit I've hardly gone down the Gov.Civic tree because it requires three civics quarters in one city and I find I rarely need to build Civics Quarters and so that tree remains locked to me.

0Send private message
?

Click here to login

Reply
Comment

Characters : 0
No results
0Send private message