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AI targets the army, not the territory.

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3 years ago
Jun 16, 2022, 9:05:38 PM

Assyrians Turn 74.ctr


Bolivar patch.


TLDR: Earlygame. I've annexed an outpost, which seemed valuable to AI, even had a Wonder construction site. Left a sentry stack. AI comes with much stronger stack, seemingly to retake it. I pull back my defenders, relocate the outpost a little further. AI tries to chase an army a bit, ignores the outpost itself, then gives up.


Long story. This report comes as an afterthought, so I don't have chronological saves, the only save I have though is enough to partially reproduce.

1) The layout: me as green Assyrians, AI as "red" Babylon. Outpost in question is right to the East of Babylon, now, in the save and on the picture it's mine. Initially, AI settled this, attached it to the city (means they think it's worth something). Even placed Hanging Gardens construction in it. Then I came with a stack of 3 warriors, wanted to harass, ended up annexing the outpost:


2) What happened next.

I left my stack of (back then) 3 warriors to guard this outpost. To their credit, in like 5 turns AI rushed swordsmen tech and came out with overwhelming stack to, as I though, retake the outpost, by pillaging mine and replacing it by new one. In a bid to delay, I relocated the outpost further back and pull out the warriors. Meanwhile I started to drag what reinforcements I have, try to rush Organiased warfare tech, because situation seemed very serious.

 To my surprise, when my stack got far enough (to no man's land further East), AI returned its own stack back and gave up on doing anything. Turns out it wasn't actually interested in the land itself, it just wanted to attack my troops, and even that, not so much.


3) Situation in the save file:


If done nothing, nothing happens, AI stays passive. However, if I return my warriors (now there are 4 of them) to where the outpost originally was, AI insta attacks my warriors with its swordsmen. Means the AI still wants to use its stack against mine, but won't use it to actually reclaim the territory it sees as its own. See the save, it's reproduceable.



4) What AI should've done. 


That's obvious. AI was right not to stop the annexation, because at that point stack of 3 warriors was too strong (I got lucky on ruins). But when AI had the swordsmen, it should have go in, locate the outpost (wherever it got relocated to), raze it and build its own outpost. Cathing my army would be nice too, but that's not the objective by any means.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 17, 2022, 12:41:55 PM

Hi Inwaves,


Thank you for your feedbacks! I agree with you, the AI's reaction seems awkward.


I tried to piece it together with your save file. The AI's army is garrisoning Babylon. If your army gets too close to Babylon, in a territory it can enter (in this case an outpost), it will chase it down, but it is not after the territory itself.

It is not trying to steal back the territory from you because it actually wants to declare war eventually. Raiding the outpost would give you a grievance and improve your war support even further (even though your war support is already maxed out). I think the AI will try to improve its military even more, until it thinks it can beat you and then it will declare war and get its territory back (at least try ;) ). I'm surprised it didn't use the grievance you generated when stealing its territory. Do you remember if the AI forgave it? Or have you refused the demand and it decided to withdraw it?

That being said, the wonder placement looks questionable, there's definitely some room for improvement in that area.

Cheers,
Alex.
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3 years ago
Jun 17, 2022, 4:08:56 PM

Thanks for the reply.


No, I don't remember about the grievance, more so, I've long abandoned this save as I got too good RNG, 5 warriors, free real estate, merc chariot, not fair. As to wonder placement - I'm almost certain that it got placed when the outpost was already in the process of being annexed, maybe on the last turn of it even. Do you guys have a check for that? I mean, dont place a wonder in a territory where totally questionable stuff happens right now?


AI shouldn't be concerned with wardec to reclaim shaded (unattached) territory. The point of formal war is to enter fully owned territory, to siege cities. If I somehow attach (very unlikely, would be 4th, expensive attach) - only then it should consider wardec, not before. Yes, that might escalate to very tough skirmish with my reinforcements, but so does full war. 


Also, on design side - relocating the outpost should be prohibited by hostile armies present, as are most other outpost actions. With more or less complicated terrain, outpost relocation can be abused for awkward cat-and-mouse game against raiding stack. In this particular example terrain is rather flat, but still, the distance between the east and west of the province is enough to make the raiding too hard for no good reason.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 17, 2022, 7:05:59 PM

Speaking of RNG - notice the pink AI in that very save, still in Neolithic. All the lands around Urkes were settled by pink, before I evicted it all. What is now Urkes - was pink outpost, razed-rebuilt-gifted to independents - taken back as a city. Could you also check that whatever pink is doing - it's doing as intended?


I happen to have very early save of this - you might want to check how come Humankind difficulty AI (pink) ended up being wrecked and stuck Neolithic for so long, in seemingly very good starting position.

Go Assyr.ctr

Updated 3 years ago.
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2 years ago
Jul 4, 2022, 10:43:46 AM
Inwaves wrote:


AI shouldn't be concerned with wardec to reclaim shaded (unattached) territory. The point of formal war is to enter fully owned territory, to siege cities. If I somehow attach (very unlikely, would be 4th, expensive attach) - only then it should consider wardec, not before. Yes, that might escalate to very tough skirmish with my reinforcements, but so does full war. 

I disagree. If our goal is to declare war, we want to maximize our war support before the declaration, meaning we want to dominate the crisis leading to war (ie. have more ongoing demands). If the AI had stolen the territory back, it would have given you demand and it would have lost it crisis advantage. 

That being said, it seems the AI did not push the grievance you gave it by stealing its territory. In my opinion, it's its main mistake. 


Inwaves wrote:


Also, on design side - relocating the outpost should be prohibited by hostile armies present, as are most other outpost actions. With more or less complicated terrain, outpost relocation can be abused for awkward cat-and-mouse game against raiding stack. In this particular example terrain is rather flat, but still, the distance between the east and west of the province is enough to make the raiding too hard for no good reason.

That, indeed, looks like a bug.


Thank you for the extra situation, I'll have a look at it!

Cheers,

Alex.

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