davea wrote:
What does it mean "not a moderator" and "keep the place tidy"? Only moderators can move/delete threads.



Having a number of sub-forums sounds good. But the excited first-time poster is going to post somewhere random anyway. Maybe the one key thing we need is a "first impressions subforum". Then a moderator can move all the related posts there. Once a person graduates from excited newbie, then they can go to whatever other sub-forum they need.

Janitors tend only to have the power to lock threads, delete/edit offending posts and bring threads to the attention of moderators/admins for deletion if it's offensive or against the rules, or conversely to be moved if necessary. These powers tend to be specific to one board only and the role tends to be the middle ground between regular, recognised forum user and full on moderator. They tend to be used on pretty large boards to help manage the place without risking a lot of people power abusing.

Gyomb wrote:
An other idea popping up :

We could use a quick rate tool like the like/dislike tool of facebook or the +1 of google (that numerous forum users already quote in their posts).

While I see the advantages of this idea the devs turned the rep out on purpose I guess, it would be kind of cool but then again I don't know if the result would be representative. If the devs will turn it on some day that's cool but I think so far the polls really do the job, though I still think they'd work better with a small own subforum to keep only polls together.

Gyomb wrote:
And an other thing :

A lot of post aren't longer than one line but take nonetheless a lot of space due to the user's info. Maybe with just the name of post owner and an unfolding menu (I'm not sure of the translation, in french we say "menu déroulant", is that correct ?)

There are a few possible names, but most common as far as I know is drop down menu. I can see your point but I think programming that would be more work for the devs than it saves anyone, also like that the posts are clearly separated, not crushed together.



Also I still have no clue whether this thread has anything to do with it or not but the devs already made a small change. For now it is wait and see how it goes I think.

An other idea popping up :

We could use a quick rate tool like the like/dislike tool of facebook or the +1 of google (that numerous forum users already quote in their posts).



And an other thing :

A lot of post aren't longer than one line but take nonetheless a lot of space due to the user's info. Maybe with just the name of post owner and an unfolding menu (I'm not sure of the translation, in french we say "menu déroulant", is that correct ?)

That's basically what I was suggesting, just slightly different and pretty much the other way round, the places of the forums swapped. It is I think important to get some members to update their thread if they start any, after that function isn't for decoration, and I frequently use it to keep my first post up to date with everything that has been posted later.



Anyway I think most things have been said but I haven't got any reply yet, so I assume the topic is still up. The only thing I saw happening was davea become a mod and I'm not sure that's related to this thread at all. When the devs/admins decide to try something like that (which I hope because I honestly think it'd help a lot) we can look how it goes and maybe make more suggestions if there is still room for improvement.

... a sub-forum for each forum (Alpha tech support, Game2gether, ...) which would serve to try ideas.



This idea comes from the fact that every suggestion is often refined by the process of commenting and arguing around it. And so we must, most of the time, read trough the last comment to grasp the final idea. The principle is to move an idea to the front forum when it's "mature". This way, discussions can start fresh with an already refined, evolved idea. It also helps keeping good ideas on the front.



Concretely, it would work this way :[LIST=1]

Everyone is free to submit an idea in the "sketch" forum and to discuss it.

Only moderator can start a new thread on the "front" forum.

When a moderator stumble on an idea he deems "mature" he can close the thread and publish an edited version on the front forum.

[/LIST]

With this process, no need to maintain a sticky thread surveying all new ideas. The ideas (or bug reports) are managed by a few dedicated moderators while the dev team only cares about the front forum.



What do you thinks about this way of processing ?



(it's a rough proposition, needing ... refining !! )

davea wrote:
That is *why* they need their own sub-forum. We need newbies to put their first posts there, so they don't clutter up the forums where actual design information is being discussed.

I can only partially agree on that idea, I would totally agree if that would be the only way. But I still think we should try first if we can get new posters to not create redundant threads in the first place instead of encouraging them to do it somewhere where they "don't do damage". Setting restriction on new members might keep a few good minds from posting, instead we should just hand an easy guideline to post out to everyone who's new so that everyone has a few easy rules to stick to.

Your idea is more of an last resort than an initial fix in my opinion. Just my opinion though, in the end it's up to the devs if and how they'll address the problem.

Steph'nie wrote:
The "first impressions" threads usually are redundant. I don't think they need their own sub-forum.

That is *why* they need their own sub-forum. We need newbies to put their first posts there, so they don't clutter up the forums where actual design information is being discussed.

Steph'nie wrote:
The "first impressions" threads usually are redundant. I don't think they need their own sub-forum.

If I understood it right, I agree with Steph'nie. While I see some points about these "first impressions" I'm just not sure it can really fix the situation to make a didicated sub-forum for them.

The work of creating/reading/moving redundant threads doesn't vanish that way it's only organized.

davea wrote:
What does it mean "not a moderator" and "keep the place tidy"? Only moderators can move/delete threads.



Having a number of sub-forums sounds good. But the excited first-time poster is going to post somewhere random anyway. Maybe the one key thing we need is a "first impressions subforum". Then a moderator can move all the related posts there. Once a person graduates from excited newbie, then they can go to whatever other sub-forum they need.

The "first impressions" threads usually are redundant. I don't think they need their own sub-forum.

I don't see how that relates to renaming the subforums and adding more.

The problem with G2G is that the pre-order listed this as a key selling point:



Creating GAMES2GETHER: Participate in the creation of the game via the GAMES2GETHER initiative. Access early versions of the game and give your feedback to the dev team. Discuss actual and future game features and expansions with the dev team.



Access early versions of the game and give your feedback to the dev team:

bug reports - top priority

exploits - how to break the game by exposing flaws in design/programming

- post to alpha tech support forum

gameplay - covers only existing game features. modes/balance/interface/AI etc



Discuss future game features and expansions with the dev team:

- most new features tagged for "post-release"



alpha/beta test phase and a suggestions forum then.



G2G is the voting system.

davea wrote:
I prefer the name "first impressions" compared to "newbies", although I agree that is what it "means".

Ha, that was just a colloquial term, not a name proposal :P

davea wrote:
I don't think having a post count threshold is a good idea since it leads to bunch of junk posts "posting to reach threshold". Also, if you look at the OP in jetkar's sticky thread, I think it is terse but conveys what we "want". The problem is not lack of rules; the challenge is to design the forum well enough that newbies do the right thing without noticing it.

True about the junk posts, but if you post rules or an FAQ as a "first step" for people to follow 99/100 people will not read it and just post anyway. Rejigging the forum layout would be good, but all it will do is spread out the new, non-researched posts that have been covered previously across more boards and be more difficult to "clamp down" on. This is why janitors are commonly used on bigger forums, to (usually) great success.

davea wrote:
If there are say 4-5 subforums including a first impressions, and janitors/junior moderators can move a thread from one subforum to another, I think this would divide the load fairly well. The bugs and FAQ subforums already work fairly well. It's just the top level and design ones that could be organized better.

I totally agree here, a combination of janitors and forum redesign would go a long way in my opinion.

davea wrote:
There may already be enough moderators. I would volunteer to be a janitor / junior moderator for the alpha bugs. You can see in my known bugs thread the way I would approach it. But it would have to be clear that tis is fan-run, and I would not make any statement to be interpreted as a fix schedule or dev team priority. Only fan priority.

I'd support you being a janitor, yourself and jetkar do a bangtidy job of helping to keep the place clean. I think they wouldn't be short on "applicants" though! :P

I prefer the name "first impressions" compared to "newbies", although I agree that is what it "means". I don't think having a post count threshold is a good idea since it leads to bunch of junk posts "posting to reach threshold". Also, if you look at the OP in jetkar's sticky thread, I think it is terse but conveys what we "want". The problem is not lack of rules; the challenge is to design the forum well enough that newbies do the right thing without noticing it.



If there are say 4-5 subforums including a first impressions, and janitors/junior moderators can move a thread from one subforum to another, I think this would divide the load fairly well. The bugs and FAQ subforums already work fairly well. It's just the top level and design ones that could be organized better.



I think the top level should *not allow any posts* since they are guaranteed to be uncategorized, and the first sublevel should have max 8-10 items: alpha bugs, FAQ, first impressions, and 4-5 "good" subdivisions of design and top level. Looking at the headers in jetkar's post may suggest how to divide. He has gameplay suggestions, interface suggestions, and tech suggestions, plus miscellaneous suggestions.



There may already be enough moderators. I would volunteer to be a janitor / junior moderator for the alpha bugs. You can see in my known bugs thread the way I would approach it. But it would have to be clear that tis is fan-run, and I would not make any statement to be interpreted as a fix schedule or dev team priority. Only fan priority.

True KNC. Another way to combat this is to create a newbie subforum, as davea suggested, and limit access for new members to that forum only until they hit a certain post amount or level. Again, another technique I've seen used on large forums that I frequent.

It shouldn't be forgotten that one of the substantial parts of making these subforums work are rules. We have a general rules thread in the Endless Space forum and that's good but so far I haven't seen anything like that specific for the Games2Gether forum. No one sees any rules so obviously new members will post what they want. I mentioned a rule part, and whether my suggestion on that is accepted or not there definitely should be at least a few basic rules, as the complete absence of those is what motivates everyone to post all the clutter they have.



The trick shouldn't be to read everything but, rather to create a structure that allows someone/a few people to read everything as soon as the suggestion is started and than to deal with it appropriately. Those people than won't have to read huge walls of text, they'll just need a rough picture of everything and if some rules are enforced that's not going to take long to achieve.

Okay, this is an important topic, and it doesn't involve Endless Space this time, it is about the Games2Gether system itself. As the devs said already it is something new which needs to be built and improved upon, it has great potential, and we should take it as far as we can. But there are a few problems around currently, and thus I decided to give this a lot of thought and I think I came up with something that is worth trying.



First I'll summarize the current problems:

1. The biggest problem are the constant reposts of suggestions which end up filling the forum. That is due to it taking some time for new members to see which suggestions have been made so far and which haven't been made, there are also some clear rules missing. Especially some new members tend to post big threads with lots of suggestions, and often there are indeed good ones in there, hidden behind a bunch of reposts though. That produces a lot of work for everyone, the new members waste time with reposting suggestions, the mods need to look through those threads to see if something is new and they might have to make a specific thread then to properly discuss it, and the devs have to look through all that clutter to find some ideas they can use.



2. That also makes it hard to keep discussions and suggestions focused and apart. If discussions mix in one topic the result will be less useful to the devs.



3. The longer it stays like this, the bigger the clutter gets.





What I suggest is this:

1. We need a few mods dedicated to keep the Games2Gether forum tidy and clean, so far most credit goes to jetkar, he's done a great job so far but it's all a little much for a single person.



2. We should split up the forums, like this:

Games2Gather - Suggestions

- The forum where new suggestions are posted, of these 3 forums normal members can only open threads here. Here we'll have a list for already made suggestions linking to the according threads and a sticky thread for rules.

Games2Gather - Design Discussion

- This is the thread where the mod(s) open or put the threads for suggestions so that members can discuss them and further improve the input. Normal members can't directly open threads here but can post and edit normally.

- Further I'd think putting subforums in place for specific areas (UI/Gameplay/Graphics/etc...) in the Design Discussion forum would greatly help people find something they might search for.

Games2Gather - Polls

- Pretty much the same as above, polls which are relevant to the devs would be opened or put here by mods. That way the devs have all important polls in one place with 0% clutter.





(Part of the credit in form of initial inspiration goes to daveybaby in this post: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/7939-a-few-concerns-and-my-ideas-about-dealing-with-them )



So far a few basic rules should be:

1: Every thread should involve only one single suggestion or a specific topic; if the topic can't be clearly summarized in the thread title it is likely too general.

2: Take a look at the list of made suggestions before posting, use strg+f to search if possible.

3: If you think you have a suggestion to make, then make a new thread for it, try not to be scarce with detail (of course unless it's something really simple).

4: Try to keep your first post in a suggestion updated with the edit function; that makes it easier for devs to find all the important points fast.



I don't know who decides about this and who is appropriate for the mod role but I'm really dedicated to this game and honor Amplitudes great effort. I'd gladly volunteer to do most of the necessary work for these changes, as I have a lot of free time on my hands right now before life calls me back to work, and since that will take at least 2 months in this time I can and I'm willing to put my effort into this.

What does it mean "not a moderator" and "keep the place tidy"? Only moderators can move/delete threads.



Having a number of sub-forums sounds good. But the excited first-time poster is going to post somewhere random anyway. Maybe the one key thing we need is a "first impressions subforum". Then a moderator can move all the related posts there. Once a person graduates from excited newbie, then they can go to whatever other sub-forum they need.

I'd like to add to the already great suggestions by proposing that forum-specific janitors are introduced to help tidy the place up. Less power than moderators, so less likely to be abused, but have the ability to keep the place tidy and help enforce rules.

In the beginning I tried to read everything, but it's not possible.

And I don't think any sub-forum could change the fact that any poster wants to create his own thread. I think that's life and there is an easy way to know which ones are good to follow : number of pages. There will always be someone who reads threads (new users usually, because they didn't read the same thing 3Z5345 times) and if the thread is good there will be replies. The rating is also for that. Did you saw a thread that isn't good, or rehash the same thing over an over ? Just rate it one star. I chose the thread I read now by following such things.



We're discussing it between modertors.

I hope it comes soon. The volume of suggestion threads is increasing, and I find I am not even interested in reading them anymore. I assume the same is probably true for others. Some experienced person needs to read each one to find potentially good new ideas. So things may get overlooked. I am pretty careful about reading every post on the alpha tech forum and raptors, but I cannot keep up with design.