As far as I have been told, one of the big problems we had with Denuvo in Humankind was that it was integrated too late, so we would not have had the time to fine-tune it to minimize any performance impact. So with Endless Dungeon, we want to start testing it much sooner.
But I understand that many players feel strongly about DRM and Denuvo in particular, so I would only ask you to please present these concerns in their own dedicated thread.
I couldn't believe it. We've been through all of this already with Humankind: Denuvo in Humankind
Back then, countless people expressed their concerns about Denuvo and that they didn't want it in the game. A lot of people (including me) said that they will NOT buy the game if it comes with Denuvo. After many, many threads in this forum and on the Steam Cummintyhub we finally got the statement from Amplitude that they will drop Denuvo. And the reaction both from players and from the international media was overwhelmingly positive!
And yet, here we are again at the same point: Denuvo will be in Endless Dungeon.
The concerns are still the same. Denuvo WILL have a bad impact on the performance:
If you are curious about it, we have beaten all our records in prerelease wishlisting (from far far away, beyond the 1 million mark), in preorders, in day 1 sales...
So Denuvo clearly isn't necessary for selling a game, but making a good one is.
The reality is that people who want to pirate a game WILL pirate the game. The difference with Denuvo is just that they have to wait a week longer. In other words, you don't generate more sales with Denuvo! Pirates are more than willing to wait a bit longer for a pirated version.
So the final question here is the same as it was with Humankind:
Why do you want to PUNISH your paying customers with an OBJECTIVELY WORSE version of the game?
It is crazy to think about that people with a pirated version will have a much smoother experience and better performance thanks to lower hardware requirements. That's nuts!
Replying to @The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales in the OpenDev announcement thread:
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
As far as I have been told, one of the big problems we had with Denuvo in Humankind was that it was integrated too late, so we would not have had the time to fine-tune it to minimize any performance impact. So with Endless Dungeon, we want to start testing it much sooner.
This is missing the point entirely. Yes, performance issues caused by Denuvo are a problem, but my biggest concern is that neither Amplitude or Sega can guarantee that Denuvo's servers will remain operational 24/7 forever and normally corporations do not care enough to remove outdated DRM. (And unfortunately, there are no consumer protection laws in place to hold DRM companies liable if their outdated DRM breaks a consumer product.) You could have Denuvo running 100% perfectly performance-wise, but I would still be disappointed because you're still not addressing my main concern. Good performance is irrelevant in a game with defunct DRM.
Because a lot of this has already been discussed ad nauseam before Humankind's release, I'll forego the detailed discussion on how (1) DRM is 100% ineffective in preventing so-called "lost sales" due to piracy, (2) how DRM developers are just selling "digital snake oil" by preying on developers using a "think of the piracy" scare tactic, and (3) how there is already a precedent for DRM'd games becoming unplayable due to DRM which is leading to a spike in piracy for these games and delisting of them from digital storefronts (see: SecuROM, SafeDisc, Games For Windows Live, etc.) But I will reiterate what I would consider the "golden rule" of game development when it comes to piracy - "do not let pirates provide a better experience to your paying customers than the experience that you provide yourself." If your game's DRM can lock people out of playing it because of DRM issues, then it's a worse experience than the pirates are providing. Please don't promote piracy by making life worse for those who are paying for your product.
But I will reiterate what I would consider the "golden rule" of game development when it comes to piracy - "do not let pirates provide a better experience to your paying customers than the experience that you provide yourself." If your game's DRM can lock people out of playing it because of DRM issues, then it's a worse experience than the pirates are providing. Please don't promote piracy by making life worse for those who are paying for your product.
Thank you for taking the time to create the thread. That'll make it much more likely others who want to chime in on the topic will join the existing discussion than if it lived in the comments of the announcements.
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And to make things worse, Denuvo actually went down 7-8 months ago, breaking a crapton of games, and whiles its back up, there is no guarantee that Denuvo wil not go down again. It is also worth mentioning that Denuvo is seen by many as potential malware, as its a Kernel level program and is a huge privacy concern to players. These are issues that you cant simply fine-tune away.
Yep denuvo is an instant no go for me. I foolishly didn't check the store page before downloading the open dev. Now i get to spend the weekend re-installing windows to get this crap gone. Weee
It is also worth mentioning that Denuvo is seen by many as potential malware, as its a Kernel level program and is a huge privacy concern to players.
Just want to add some technical clarification here.
You're talking about the Denuvo anti-cheat. Every anti-cheats on the market operate like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer. TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one.
What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's not a software, it's not something installed on your computer. It's just some checks made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did buy the game.
Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all time, or even the Denuvo server to be online. You'll be able to play offline.
Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;)
What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's not a software, it's not something installed on your computer. It's just some checks made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did buy the game.
Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all time, or even the Denuvo server to be online. You'll be able to play offline.
Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;)
I appreciate your technical explanation and concern here, but the truth is that these issues aren't going to be a problem for people running a cracked copy - only for those who paid you for a legit copy. So at that point, why hassle us just because we gave you our money? Also, you are technically correct that you don't have be online all the time, but the fact is that you'll need to connect to a Denuvo server at some point. If you need to refresh your authorization, but the Denuvo servers are offline temporarily (or forever) or you are without an internet connection, then you're out of luck. Is Amplitude/Sega prepared to guarantee 100% uptime for Denuvo servers and provide refunds when the game becomes unplayable because Denuvo goes defunct? (Of course, the answer is most likely "no" since I have other games that are unplayable without a crack thanks to defunct DRM, and it is very, very rare for a developer to care when this happens for an older game and publish a DRM-free patch.) So to be honest, the mere inclusion of Denuvo is a downside that cannot be mitigated.
(And just as a disclaimer, I am not trying to personally place blame on you or any other specific person for the decision to include Denuvo. Just sharing my opinion from my viewpoint as a customer.)
Count me in anti-denuvo croud, this practice is disgusting.
Astamarr wrote:
Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;)
Empty words, you can't change how it works fundamentally. You can't avoid nested VMs, nor outdated tokens, that has to be refreshed somehow.
As a developer you need to ask yourself what are YOUR benefits from such an invasive DRM like Denuvo? The ONLY answer is to protect the game from piracy.
What is the benefit for us as players? Only answer: None!
The thing is though, no DRM can protect a game from piracy, it can only delay it a bit!
Then, once a crack is available your fancy DRM is completely useless and while pirates don't have to hustle with it, your customers have to deal with it.
@Astamarr
By the way: Is Denuvo already integrated in the OpenDev beta?
The thing is tough, no DRM can protect a game from piracy, it can only delay it a bit!
Then, once a crack is available your fancy DRM is completely useless and while pirates don't have to hustle with it, your customers have to deal with it.
Of course, that's something we have well in mind.
By the way: Is Denuvo already integrated in the OpenDev beta?
The thing is tough, no DRM can protect a game from piracy, it can only delay it a bit!
Then, once a crack is available your fancy DRM is completely useless and while pirates don't have to hustle with it, your customers have to deal with it.
Of course, that's something we have well in mind.
By the way: Is Denuvo already integrated in the OpenDev beta?
Yes, it is.
so with that in mind, is this going to be a launch only thing, where it will stick around to safegaurd the first 2 or 3 weeks before being removed to improve the game?
I was not aware of the fact that Denuvo was already included in the OpenDev beta. Shoutout to you guys here on the forums. I will be staying away from the Beta until this obviously detrimental decision has been walked back as was the case with Humankind.
The concern about losing access to the game in the long-term future if Denuvo goes down is legitimate, but a lot of these other concerns seem like overreactions. You guys are kinda making bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.
Thanks for the thread. I don't understand developers punishing their customers with this buggy software. There is no point in it, only the buyers suffer. Devs, please, remove Denuvo from the game. I will wait for that before buying the game.
It is also worth mentioning that Denuvo is seen by many as potential malware, as its a Kernel level program and is a huge privacy concern to players.
Just want to add some technical clarification here.
You're talking about the Denuvo anti-cheat. Every anti-cheats on the market operate like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer. TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one.
What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's not a software, it's not something installed on your computer. It's just some checks made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did buy the game.
Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all time, or even the Denuvo server to be online. You'll be able to play offline.
Last but not least, please know that we're doing everything we can to ensure that Denuvo has no downsides for you guys, and is used with good intelligence ;)
No offense, but i don't beleive you. Denuvo has a radioactive reputation, and any dev who who is trying to minimize that is immediately suspect. Are you willing to release the source code of what it is doing to your customers computers?
That's an absurd request. The whole point is to protect the game from being pirated, releasing the source code would be like telling everyone your password to prove what's in it.
This makes me so very sad to hear because it means that I will not participate in the playtest, even though I have already access to the OpenDev and I almost can't wait to play it.
Dungeon of the Dungeon of the Endless is one of my most played games in Steam with almost 100 hours playtime. I had so much fun getting ALL achievements!
I hope that once there is a pirated version of Endless Dungeon Amplitude will remove Denuvo from the game.
This makes me so very sad to hear because it means that I will not participate in the playtest, even though I have already access to the OpenDev and I almost can't wait to play it.
Dungeon of the Dungeon of the Endless is one of my most played games in Steam with almost 100 hours playtime. I had so much fun getting ALL achievements!
I hope that once there is a pirated version of Endless Dungeon Amplitude will remove Denuvo from the game.
That hasn't been Sega's pattern with Denuvo in the past. The original Total War: Warhammer still has Denuvo active in it.
It is a shame because both Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal had it and removed it after a suitable amount of time. Sega does not have this track record.
This makes me so very sad to hear because it means that I will not participate in the playtest, even though I have already access to the OpenDev and I almost can't wait to play it.
Dungeon of the Dungeon of the Endless is one of my most played games in Steam with almost 100 hours playtime. I had so much fun getting ALL achievements!
I hope that once there is a pirated version of Endless Dungeon Amplitude will remove Denuvo from the game.
That hasn't been Sega's pattern with Denuvo in the past. The original Total War: Warhammer still has Denuvo active in it.
It is a shame because both Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal had it and removed it after a suitable amount of time. Sega does not have this track record.
But Amplitude has removed denuvo from Humankind, they can do it again.
I think it reflects poorly on Amplitude that they know their customers already had a major issue with this during their last games launch, yet here they are now trying to launch a game with it again.
I know I'm out-of scope, but I'm playing all my games on Linux (with Proton). The endless series work nicely, but I'm a bit concerned this DRM will lock me out of the game :(
I think it reflects poorly on Amplitude that they know their customers already had a major issue with this during their last games launch, yet here they are now trying to launch a game with it again.
I've already de-wishlisted this game on Steam.
and from the sounds of it the devs might be doubling down on it, but I still want to know if this is a launch only thing or if its permanent.
I think it reflects poorly on Amplitude that they know their customers already had a major issue with this during their last games launch, yet here they are now trying to launch a game with it again.
I've already de-wishlisted this game on Steam.
and from the sounds of it the devs might be doubling down on it, but I still want to know if this is a launch only thing or if its permanent.
I'm not 100% on it, because i more or less write the pc versions off completely once they're infected with Denuvo- but I don't believe Sega has removed any once they've launched with it. Capcom and others have, but not so much with Sega.
Just as a reminder to everyone why DRM is bad, it looks like Ubisoft is planning on decommissioning a DRM authentication server that will disable access to single-player DLC that people already paid for. And it's worth noting that some of the games that are mentioned here were still put on sale during Steam's recent Summer Sale. How incredibly scummy.
Seriously, I hate DRM, and it is mind-blowing that there are corporate types in 2022 who honestly think that DRM somehow stops piracy. The only people hurt by DRM are those who "did the right thing" and didn't pirate the game. What a way to reward loyalty.
Gotta think of the PR fallout versus the probably minimal actual loss from piracy the game will be hit with. Seems like an easy choice to remove DRM at that point. Hopefully the devs will fight for the players in this situation.
Well isn't this funnier than fun? Amplitude who swore they will never change, after willingly selling themselves to Sega strikes again LUL, great stuff. Some guys from here maybe still believe Amplitude is the same great company as it once was and we all loved it, that is why they are shocked and still care a lot. Times have changed unfortunately after they sold themselves to Sega for a good steady income so they could care less about their fan base in reality and depend even less on their money. They only say they still care in words, but the results and the implementations they come with confirm they don't care anymore that much, they are going mainstream.
So, the more the quality of their games will degrade and become worse, oversimplified, mainstream, and so on, the more Denuvo, DRMs, loot boxes, mobile like features, skins, child addiction methods and so on you will see implemented. Unfortunately that is the new normal :facepalm:. You can see that from Humankind, the worst 4x they ever made (after they sold themselves to Sega) that has for more than a year the lowest rating on Steam (mixed) compared to any of their previous games that gave good/great ratings. Endless Dungeon who seemed like a cool sequel on paper is more like a oversimplified pew-pew-pew looter shooter and 0 brain with almost no strategic depth from what I saw in their OpenDev. So let's wonder what will it be next? A Diablo Immortal loot box driven Endless game? LUL
You can also feel it in your gut when the most upvoted discussions change from: what a great game, what a great concept, such cool features, to why should or should not DRMs and loot boxes and other crap be implemented, why is the game so simplistic compared to the previous and lots of other great stuff :)))
So everyone enjoy the new Amplitude Studios who willingly sold themselves to Sega!
i will not buy any game with intrusive DRM. steam is DRM enough. all DRM will be cracked anyway, denuvo is no different, if devs put shit like that in their game it makes me question their faith in their own game.
games with zero drm (as in you can literally just send the files to a friend and it would work) still regularly make GREAT sale numbers. its because if the game is GOOD people WILL buy it. if devs start focusing on thinking about excuses as to why their game isnt selling "we needed a stronger DRM" etc, then that makes me question the devs faith in their own product.
if denuvo is in the game i will not purchase the game with my hard earned dollars. i aint giving my money to anyone who treats their own customers with disdain and their own product with no belief in its ability to succeed, and are willing to bog it down with a terrible drm.
The only people hurt by DRM are those who "did the right thing" and didn't pirate the game. What a way to reward loyalty.
This is 100% true, so it should be clear to everyone what they should do to a game that comes with DRM. Are you going to be the sucker who paid to get an inferior product? If the devs treat you like a thief and treat their customers with disdain you might as well walk the path they paved for you.
As long as the devs remove Denuvo after it is no longer useful, I don't mind them using it in the beginning where it actually protects them from theft. Yes DRM sucks due to impacting performance on many PC's, but we live in a world where developers are forced into using it when launching their games.
To make the DRM situation even more horrible, Denuvo announced recently that they're releasing Denuvo Anto-Tamper for Nintendo Switch. This is probably somehow worse than Denuvo for PC because there has always been comfort in the fact that you can load a Switch cartridge into a console and expect it to run in some capacity even if Nintendo's online servers go down. (Sure, you'll miss out on updates, but technically the game should run without Day 0 patches.) If the cartridge shipped on Day 0 has Denuvo on it though, then the excuse of "well, we will remove it later" goes away because Nintendo is not reliable at all when it comes to keeping their online servers up and running for older consoles. So when Nintendo decommissions the Switch servers and you cannot download game updates anymore, then you're going to have a completely bricked cartridge if Denuvo decides to discontinue support for their Switch authentication servers and you don't have the Denuvo removal update backed up somewhere. Of course, I'm sure that the emulation scene will have it circumvented eventually which means that the people who paid for their Denuvo'd Switch cartridge will once again be the losers here (along with the company who got scammed into purchasing the worthless Denuvo license in the first place).
So this is yet another reason why DRM is awful and anti-consumer, and its horrible to see this blight creeping into console games.
Mithrandir wrote:
we live in a world where developers are forced into using it when launching their games.
The devs aren't forced to do anything. Piracy does not mean that the devs lost a sale, and including DRM means that the pirates will just play something else until the DRM is cracked/removed. These pirates can download basically any game made over video gaming's entire 50 year history so what makes you think that they'll suddenly decide to pay for a new DRM'd game when they literally have hundreds of thousands of other games that are already in their piracy backlog?
Another thing to note is that Denuvo actually encourages Piracy as it gives people a reason to crack the game, If Amplitude worries about piracy, then getting rid of denuvo actually will help ease their worries. It may not outright stop piracy (because nothing can), but it will definitely minimize it as there wont be as much of a reason to crack the game.
Another thing to note is that Denuvo actually encourages Piracy as it gives people a reason to crack the game, If Amplitude worries about piracy, then getting rid of denuvo actually will help ease their worries. It may not outright stop piracy (because nothing can), but it will definitely minimize it as there wont be as much of a reason to crack the game.
Do you understand what Denuvo is? I'm seeing a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in this thread. The information below comes mostly from the Denuvo website itself, but also from personal experience and things explained to me from game developers. Denuvo makes it a lot harder to conventionally decompile games. The reason this is a big deal is because, while yes it delays the game getting cracked for a month or two, but is also because it makes mods that use tools like Harmony way harder to create (despite what they claim on their website, modder friends repeatedly tell me its a lot harder to mod games with AntiTamper). Meaning, if the game does not have a built-in modding system (and frankly, even if it does), modding will not happen until someone figures out a way around it. Amplitude is (probably) adding this, rather than Denuvo AntiCheat, which is way more intrusive, and when -- often -- implemented poorly, drastically effects performance and has kernel level access. What does kernel level access mean? It uses drivers that have access to the core of your operating system and can do virtually do anything they want. This isn't innately bad, though it is incredibly intrusive, but hackers regularly use poorly made drivers such as this to gain access to the entirety of your computer (with a recent example being Genshin Impact.
The game will be pirated whether AntiTamper is added or not. The point of adding AntiTamper is to delay it for as long as possible. Game studios do this frequently, and once the game is cracked, it'll likely be removed.
I don't like AntiTamper, especially as a modder, however, Amplitude is a business and I understand them wanting to delay piracy.
The point of adding AntiTamper is to delay it for as long as possible. Game studios do this frequently
Certainly not all companies and certainly never Amplitude before willingly selling themselves to Sega while shouting loud and clear, "we promise we won’t change". Remember when Amplitude said, "we promise we won’t change" when they willingly sold themselves to Sega? Well, Denuvo is a first part of that promise and very probably many similar corpo stuff soon to come :))) LOL
Guess who uses Denuvo in their products? Ubisoft, the company they left to make Amplitude, an indie company that was closer to the customers and fans without all the corpo trash integrated in their games. Guess who never used Denuvo? Amplitude before selling themselves to Sega
Of course, leaving Ubisoft and starting something new was a huge financial risk so they took it anyways, no Denuvo, no corpo trash in their games, only with fans at their side and a dream. Now that they have a few very well received games under their belt and the money and experience they brought in from them, it became less risky as compared to the times when they started from scratch as they did. But, they could not stand it anymore to be just them, with the fans and with a few well done games, who brought in new money and experience, compared to nothing when they started out, so they willingly sold themselves to a big corpo (Sega), they added Denuvo and corpo trash in the games or items form the "we promise we won’t change" package as Amplitude would say. Because now "it's all risky" that they had a good start and money rolling in! When they started out with nothing they did not care it was risky, they did not cried about Denuvo, they went in with love and faith. Now "it's all risky". Yea, great, makes perfect sense, good stuff :))) :facepalm:
Unfortunately, sometimes money and power can corrupt with ease. But never worry. If they won't change in the future other indie companies will emerge to make great 4x games as they once did or maybe other talented people will leave Ubisoft and make a splendid company as they once did or why not maybe if they grow in this mainstream corpo direction and far away from who they were originally, even the talented people from Amplitude who feel what I and others are saying here will leave Amplitude and make their own company as once Amplitude left Ubisoft. I remember when Blizzard was one of the best and friendly companies ever made, they kind of invented the RTS genre, they allowed modding and freedom, then they grew in a big corpo and did not care even about their RTS, they cared just about money, royalties, restrictions, patents and so on. We waited for 10 years but now RTS in coming back. I remember when Yahoo was all the hype. I remember when Nokia = mobile phone. Nothing is forever if you are not trustworthy and you don't care about your fans / customers. Luckily even if it takes time the market corrects itself. A good thing to ponder about
CaptainCobbs wrote: and I understand them wanting to delay piracy
To what effect? To screw their legitimate customers? Pirates won't buy it either way, no meaningful number, legit customers will deal with consequences.
CaptainCobbs wrote: and I understand them wanting to delay piracy
To what effect? To screw their legitimate customers? Pirates won't buy it either way, no meaningful number, legit customers will deal with consequences.
To a certain extent yes and to another degree no. Some of the casual pirates will cave and buy the game because they are not hardcore into pirating games, but another group of dedicated pirates that won't buy the game regardless will still not buy the game.
I would tolerate Denuvo in a game if it was guaranteed to be removed after a certain number of months (and I could delay my playing of it til then as it gets updates and fixes anyway). ID does this with both DOOM and DOOM Eternal and I think it is the most sensible approach.
The issue I see is that Sega does not remove Denuvo from their games, period. Total War Warhammer I still has it. So I expect anything that it gets into will retain it. I certainly won't buy it if it has Denuvo and is from Sega...not without some specific guarantees that it will be removed.
Casual pirates are people who buy games and usually identify themselves as customers. But when companies like Amplitude put Denuvo and DRMs in their games just to tell their customers: you untrustworthy human beings, we don't like you a bit, you look like thieves and criminals and we are putting Denuvo and DRMs in games just for you, never to be trusted customers. So than the customers who buy their games feel and become casual pirates as that is how the company is treating them :))) :facepalm:
CaptainCobbs wrote: and I understand them wanting to delay piracy
To what effect? To screw their legitimate customers? Pirates won't buy it either way, no meaningful number, legit customers will deal with consequences.
I could maybe understand some naive number crunchers in Marketing/Finance/C-Suite and some oblivious stockholders possibly reading Denuvo's advertising and falling for that line, but this notion that delaying piracy somehow leads to higher income is incredibly bizarre. The fact is that Denuvo has failed to stop piracy (which is expected - it will never be stopped), and they are trying to cover up their failure by spreading this lie that "it delays piracy which means you'll make more money in the first few weeks" so they can justify selling more of their DRM snake oil to unsuspecting corpo-types who clearly don't understand the first thing about what DRM actually does and how it affects customers in the long-term. So it's all a big con being put on by Denuvo and other DRM companies, and video game companies just need to give up on this DRM nonsense and instead just focus on providing the most enjoyable experience to the people who actually pay them for their product.
Casual pirates are people who buy games and usually identify themselves as customers. But when companies like Amplitude put Denuvo and DRMs in their games just to tell their customers: you untrustworthy human beings, we don't like you a bit, you look like thieves and criminals and we are putting Denuvo and DRMs in games just for you, never to be trusted customers. So than the customers who buy their games feel and become casual pirates as that is how the company is treating them :))) :facepalm:
and that just reinforces the fact the Denuvo Encourages Piracy, people who would have bought the game legitimately will instead choose to pirate the game as regardless if its Anti-cheat or Anti-Tamper, these People do not want one of if not the most Hated DRM of all time on their devices.
Hey I myself was a pirate back in the day. When I had no job and no income but wanted to play at least some of the latest games. I'm not endorsing this or saying its OK. The reality is that I could not afford the games at the time even if I WANTED to buy them all.
It is different nowadays (I have a steady income and can afford to buy the games I'm interested in)...especially with how much you get from a game that is supported with the devs delivering patches and keeping the game fresh for years to come (hopefully). There are a lot of people who never make it from the income bracket that I was in to the income bracket I am in now (modest as it is).
There are a group of people who CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyway (casual pirates)...that is ostensibly who Denuvo is targeting. Unfortunately there are lot of variables within that group and then you have the group of people who CANNOT afford your game and would not buy it even if you stop them from pirating it. The thing is that you will never know for sure what or how much DRM is protecting a game. Unless you could somehow have a parallel launch of the same game in two completely separate but similar worlds and see how well the one with DRM does versus the one without. Maybe the Endless could rig something like that but we humans cannot.
Casual pirates are people who buy games and usually identify themselves as customers. But when companies like Amplitude put Denuvo and DRMs in their games just to tell their customers: you untrustworthy human beings, we don't like you a bit, you look like thieves and criminals and we are putting Denuvo and DRMs in games just for you, never to be trusted customers. So than the customers who buy their games feel and become casual pirates as that is how the company is treating them :))) :facepalm:
and that just reinforces the fact the Denuvo Encourages Piracy, people who would have bought the game legitimately will instead choose to pirate the game
In my post above I just expressed in a more amusing way, how people who buy a game feel (or symbolically "become"), when the company who makes that game tells them from that start that will treat them like thieves and pirates even if they buy the game officially from them
Now, I don't know what people who do not buy the game choose to do in their lives. As far as I am concerned they could buy, support and play the gazillion great games that don't have DRMs and corpo trash in them since the beginning of gaming and they will run out of life first but never out of games as there are so many and life is so short. Even if they just play all the great non DRM 4Xs ever made, you can play that for decades and don't get bored.
There are a group of people who CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyway (casual pirates)...that is ostensibly who Denuvo is targeting.
Yes, I was just joking above with that term, but in a sense that is pretty true
Still, there may be a group of people that CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyways as you say. There is also a group of people that CAN afford to buy games but will not if you treat them like pirates / thieves and that is very bad, especially if these are your fans that stayed with you through thick and thin and lost countless hours of their life to give you feedback in forums and OpenDevs so you can improve your games (teams of testers that you don't pay and work for you for free). And also bought all your games to support you when you were just starting up and had no help. Now, to give those the finger I find it to be such an ugly scene
There are a group of people who CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyway (casual pirates)...that is ostensibly who Denuvo is targeting. Unfortunately there are lot of variables within that group and then you have the group of people who CANNOT afford your game and would not buy it even if you stop them from pirating it. The thing is that you will never know for sure what or how much DRM is protecting a game.
True, but in either case there was not a potential sale lost because the person never intended to spend money. So in the context of DRM, whether the person pirated game, did not buy it because they could not afford it, or simply ignored the game is a moot point. In all three cases, there is no money to be made by the devs.
Slashman wrote:
Unless you could somehow have a parallel launch of the same game in two completely separate but similar worlds and see how well the one with DRM does versus the one without. Maybe the Endless could rig something like that but we humans cannot.
This is also true because you are altering the outcome by taking a measurement. However, the EU did commission a firm a while ago to assess the effect of piracy on sales, and the results said that there was not a strong correlation between piracy and sales for anything except for "blockbuster" movies:
Now one question that I would like to know the answer to is how much Denuvo costs the devs. DRM is intended to prevent lost sales, but any calculation for lost sales is going to be complete guesswork. So I do wonder how often companies end up spending more money on the DRM than they would have "lost" due to piracy.
There are a group of people who CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyway (casual pirates)...that is ostensibly who Denuvo is targeting.
Yes, I was just joking above with that term, but in a sense that is pretty true
Still, there may be a group of people that CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyways as you say. There is also a group of people that CAN afford to buy games but will not if you treat them like pirates / thieves and that is very bad, especially if these are your fans that stayed with you through thick and thin and lost countless hours of their life to give you feedback in forums and OpenDevs so you can improve your games (teams of testers that you don't pay and work for you for free). And also bought all your games to support you when you were just starting up and had no help. Now, to give those the finger I find it to be such an ugly scene
Yes I agree with you that this is very true..further breaking down the group of people who you may call casual pirates. And it is not a quick and easy answer as to how many are in one group and how many are in the next group. For example...there may be persons who mostly buy all their games but decide to pirate yours because they are not true fans of your genre or do not really trust/are not interested in your company. Are those people then the pirates you want to go after or would blocking them have no effect on your sales anyway?
The thing about Denuvo is that they are made up of former pirates who now "want to go the straight and narrow" after repenting for their past transgressions etc etc. But you have to know that they are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. Their services cost. And it is in their interests to push the narrative that their programs do prevent the worst kinds of piracy...otherwise their services are effectively useless.
SpikedWallMan wrote:
Slashman wrote:
There are a group of people who CAN afford to buy games but who pirate them anyway (casual pirates)...that is ostensibly who Denuvo is targeting. Unfortunately there are lot of variables within that group and then you have the group of people who CANNOT afford your game and would not buy it even if you stop them from pirating it. The thing is that you will never know for sure what or how much DRM is protecting a game.
True, but in either case there was not a potential sale lost because the person never intended to spend money. So in the context of DRM, whether the person pirated game, did not buy it because they could not afford it, or simply ignored the game is a moot point. In all three cases, there is no money to be made by the devs.
Well not entirely...there are those who would relent and buy the game if enough of their friends were playing it and it was a multiplayer game for instance. Not all...but some. If you remember the days of Starcraft and Warcraft where there was something called a spawn install? That was a multiplayer only installation of the game that let folks play multiplayer but not the campaign. Those no longer exist and their absence may be what would push a person who regularly pirates to buy a game...if enough of his friends are playing that he feels left out then that may be a tipping point.
CaptainCobbs wrote: and I understand them wanting to delay piracy
To what effect? To screw their legitimate customers? Pirates won't buy it either way, no meaningful number, legit customers will deal with consequences.
In all honesty talking about Denuvo is a minor subject and a trap, also arguing amongst ourselves is also a bloody trap
We should focus more on the main topic in my opinion:
How come the people who left Ubisoft so they could found Amplitude, an indie company that was closer to the customers and fans without all the corpo trash integrated in their games, took that huge risk and started from scratch, only with the fans at their side and a dream, they did not want to hear about DRM, Denuvo, Skins, loot boxes and all the other mainstream corpo trash and succeeded with that formula.
Fans also supported them because they were sincere and transparent.
And how come after they had a few games and established themselves in the market and they had some income and experience from the games they made, very well received games, I might add, they suddenly changed and said it’s “all risky” and they willingly sold themselves to Sega to become a corpo like company and added Denuvo that they never wanted to hear about before, as there was not a problem for them and had success by doing so, while also shouting loud and clear to the fans: don’t worry, "we promise we won’t change"
So why after taking all the risk in the world starting with fans at their side, building trust with no Denuvo and corpo trash and having success they suddenly changed and showed everyone the finger, mostly do not care about feedback so much, added DRM / Denuvo, released that watered down, mobile like 4x Humankind unfinished but asked AAA price for that and all the other bs, while shouting: don’t worry, "we promise we won’t change"?
I think this should be the main topic and what can we, the guys who stood with them when they need us, do about it, if anything, so we can get again the no DRM good quality games that we had before and get back the Amplitude that treated us as a partner?
True, but in either case there was not a potential sale lost because the person never intended to spend money. So in the context of DRM, whether the person pirated game, did not buy it because they could not afford it, or simply ignored the game is a moot point. In all three cases, there is no money to be made by the devs.
Well not entirely...there are those who would relent and buy the game if enough of their friends were playing it and it was a multiplayer game for instance. Not all...but some. If you remember the days of Starcraft and Warcraft where there was something called a spawn install? That was a multiplayer only installation of the game that let folks play multiplayer but not the campaign. Those no longer exist and their absence may be what would push a person who regularly pirates to buy a game...if enough of his friends are playing that he feels left out then that may be a tipping point.
That is a very specific scenario, but the value of a multiplayer game is determined by the number of active players. This is why many multiplayer games are F2P. So I would still argue that there would only be a negligible amount of money lost - if any was lost at all - in that particular case because the pirate may actually attract more players by adding to the active user count.
True, but in either case there was not a potential sale lost because the person never intended to spend money. So in the context of DRM, whether the person pirated game, did not buy it because they could not afford it, or simply ignored the game is a moot point. In all three cases, there is no money to be made by the devs.
Well not entirely...there are those who would relent and buy the game if enough of their friends were playing it and it was a multiplayer game for instance. Not all...but some. If you remember the days of Starcraft and Warcraft where there was something called a spawn install? That was a multiplayer only installation of the game that let folks play multiplayer but not the campaign. Those no longer exist and their absence may be what would push a person who regularly pirates to buy a game...if enough of his friends are playing that he feels left out then that may be a tipping point.
That is a very specific scenario, but the value of a multiplayer game is determined by the number of active players. This is why many multiplayer games are F2P. So I would still argue that there would only be a negligible amount of money lost - if any was lost at all - in that particular case because the pirate may actually attract more players by adding to the active user count.
No doubt it is not the all encompassing scenario, but that is the kind of argument that Denuvo will bring to publishers.
No doubt it is not the all encompassing scenario, but that is the kind of argument that Denuvo will bring to publishers.
Yeah, I agree and that's my point exactly. Even the "strongest" arguments that DRM devs pitch in favor of their product are rather weak and definitely do not justify making the experience worse for those who actually paid for the game.
It should be clear to everyone at this point that Denuvo brings nothing good to the table and will only make bad things worse. Amplitude still has time to get rid of it as they havent even announced a release date for the game (which somewhat is bad in itself), Theres still time for Amplitude to make the right decision, It may not bring the same amount of praise as last time given the circumstances, but any positive PR is good, and given Amplitude stance on the being community driven, positive PR should be essential to its prosperity. So I ask Amplitude, please make the right choice here.
Why is Denuvor bad? From what I could gather at most it was a minor inconvenience, a lot of games have them and I don't think it can ruin a whole game, also they probably could just remove it after release, and by the way, it's most likely to release next year.
Why is Denuvor bad? From what I could gather at most it was a minor inconvenience, a lot of games have them and I don't think it can ruin a whole game, also they probably could just remove it after release, and by the way, it's most likely to release next year.
...Did you read the whole thread? People go into great detail on the negative aspects of Denuvo.
yeah at this point it should be very obvious the Community is united against Denuvo, the threads now among the top 10 most popular threads on G2G with over a million points in upvotes and 90% of the comments about denuvo here being negative, the Message is clear, the community does not want denuvo, It will not have anything to do with Denuvo and by Amplitude Seemingly doubling maybe even tripling down on it, People are actively losing faith in the developers.
DRM has been the top concern and discussion in these forums and on Steam for the past six months gathering three times as many points as the second most popular thread.
Denuvo is counter productive as the ones getting the end of the stick are the paying customers due to its reliance on third party servers. You can't force people to buy games. Making a good product and nurturing a positive community are better levers against piracy than any technological means of preventing access will ever be.
Amplitude used to be an independent company with a strong identity, not afraid to interact directly with the most critical of their fans and now what? Although I've been a first hour fan of the Endless universe and founder on Dungeon of the Endless, I'm starting to heavily resent the SEGA acquisition and what it did to my favorite developer. Sorry for the mood everyone.
I’m Astamarr, the developer responsible for the task of integrating Denuvo DRM to ENDLESS Dungeon. I'll try to answer your concerns about the Denuvo DRM, and what it means to install a game that contains it.
Let me say that I'm first and foremost a player, just like you. I've faced numerous disastrous DRMs implementations during the years, and i know that it can cause a great deal of frustration. With that in mind, I'll try to be as clear and honest as possible in the following statement.
1) First of all, it's important to make a distinction between Denuvo anti-cheat and Denuvo DRM.
Denuvo Anti-Cheat is a software installed on your computer. Every anti-cheat on the market operates like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer hardware and software and doing... stuff to ensure that you're playing fairly. TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one. No third-party software will be installed on your computer.
What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's just some verifications made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did indeed buy the game.
Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all times, or even for the Denuvo server to be online. Once this check is made, you'll be able to play offline.
2) The second main concern about these DRMs are performances issues. Theses checks can indeed have a great impact on performance. It's pretty easy to understand: if the checks are triggered every time the player makes a basic action (like, for example, moving the character), it'll spam requests non-stop and it'll be disastrous. On the other hand, if we barely do any checks at all, it'll be pretty easy for hackers to crack the DRM and the whole process will be worthless.
Of course, there is a balance to find here: more checks means a more secure game, but a greater impact on performance.
At Amplitude, we're doing everything necessary to find the perfect balance to have a decently protected game, and to intelligently place requests so that they do not impact performance. This requires time, which is why we are already tackling it now.
We have efficient tools to monitor performance closely, and we will put every effort until release (and after if needed!) to ensure that. Regardless of how things change in the market we will always make sure that our players have access to the game that they have bought.
To summarize, let's say this: we will try our best to avoid that the game gets hacked at release -- because we put a lot of hard work into our games, and we do have bills to pay. We will never compromise on the quality of game, the experience, and the privacy of our players for it.
Astamarr wrote: To summarize, let's say this: we will try our best to avoid that the game gets hacked at release -- because we put a lot of hard work into our games, and we do have bills to pay.
Oh, don't worry, it will definitely be hacked - DRM'd games are always cracked eventually. Also, don't worry because a pirated copy of a game isn't a lost sale anyway - so you all won't really be losing any hypothetical money even if the game was pirated a lot because those "sales" never existed in the first place. So if the paying customers are already planning on paying for a game, and the pirates never planned to pay at all... Why are the paying customers being subjected to DRM again? Look, I'm all for devs making money off of their hard work, but the whole DRM issue only hurts those who paid for the game.
Astamarr wrote: Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all times, or even for the Denuvo server to be online. Once this check is made, you'll be able to play offline.
Really? It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever? So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?
Oh, don't worry, it will definitely be hacked [...] but the whole DRM issue only hurts those who paid for the game.
I'm just a simple developper here, so I can't answer (nor necessary understand) about the business side of these decisions. From my perspective, it's just a fact we have to deal with, and i'm trying to express that our teams will do the best to compose with it.
SpikedWallMan wrote: Really? It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever? So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?
It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.
SpikedWallMan wrote: So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?
No, you wouldn't be able to install the old DRM build. At least not hacked ;)
I understand your concerns as I know some "old" games are now unplayable because of these issues (i'm still salty about my Spore copy). Of course, i really want to tell you that no matter what we will always support our game until the end of times, but the world is too much of a weird place to promise it.
I can only tell you this : we are technically thinking and planning about these concerns, and we already made sure that if we do need to remove any DRM from our games, it'll be a really quick and easy update for us to make.
SpikedWallMan wrote: Really? It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever? So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?
It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.
I dont understand, why does the game need to be checked in order to play offline, and why would people have to login in just to continue playing offline? aren't Log ins usually related to online activity?
Because otherwise once anyone had a copy of the game working, there would be nothing stopping everyone from sending that copy to each other. You need to check with on online server to make sure that everyone has a different copy than each other. Back in the old days you could just burn the CD a game came on and give it to your friends. This is the first most basic step towards stopping pirates.
so what the dev said earlier is more or less false as you have to be online one way or the other. Worse it makes the game sound less like a game you can buy and play right out the box and more like a subscription service akin to a MMO, Having to log in online at least every update in the same way you have to spend money on a service every month, and if you dont have or lost a online connection when the next check comes by, thats it, no more Endless Dungeon, in the same way you lose a service if you dont have the money to continue it.
There will be no monthly subscription which is a pretty big difference, and since you have enough internet to come here to the forums I expect you will have no trouble playing your game.
There will be no monthly subscription which is a pretty big difference, and since you have enough internet to come here to the forums I expect you will have no trouble playing your game.
I know, but the way its described heavily implies some form of time limited use, and while people like you and me may not have a problem with the internet, there will be others who will buy the game but not be as fortunate with their online connectivety.
Oh, don't worry, it will definitely be hacked [...] but the whole DRM issue only hurts those who paid for the game.
I'm just a simple developper here, so I can't answer (nor necessary understand) about the business side of these decisions. From my perspective, it's just a fact we have to deal with, and i'm trying to express that our teams will do the best to compose with it.
There is no way to prove that DRM has a positive effect because there is no way to prove that the people who pirated would have bought the game otherwise. On the other hand, I user who is locked out of a game they purchased can definitely prove they DRM has a negative effect. Businesspeople and DRM devs can tell as many scary stories about evil pirates as they want, but all they can back those claims up with is speculation. Instead, I think it's better for a dev to ignore the pirates and instead intensely focus on fostering a community who sees the value in spending their money on a game.
Astamarr wrote:
SpikedWallMan wrote: Really? It doesn't require the Denuvo server to be online...ever? So if Denuvo went bankrupt and shut down all of their servers today, then I could expect to install the DRM'd build of Endless Dungeon, say, 5 years from now?
It's a good question and my statement was clearly incomplete. Just like Steam or any others DRMs, when your game get checked, you basically get a ticket to use the game for a period of time, even offline. Eventually this ticket will expire after a while and you'll have to log-in again to refresh it. Same goes with every update of the game.
OK. Thanks for the clarification - that's what I thought. So my point still stands that the DRM'd version of the game is just one dead server farm away from being a "digital brick" as it were for the people who paid for it. (My condolences regarding your dead Spore disc BTW. For the record, if it wasn't for the SecuROM DRM on the disc then that game would run perfectly fine.)
Astamarr wrote: At least not hacked ;)
And therein lies one of the larger problems that I have with DRM. If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware. So the devs are pushing their legit customers to perform risky actions just to maintain status quo for the game that they purchased. And then at that point you have to consider that the paying customers are now performing the exact same set of actions as pirates (e.g. looking for cracked downloads, applying hacks, wading through sketchy sites, etc.) so the only difference between the customer and the pirate at this point is that the customer was "dumb" enough to pay for the piracy experience.
I appreciate your comments here and also appreciate that you are trying to make the best of a bad situation. I realize that you didn't make the decision to put Denuvo in this game. However, I wish that the decision-makers that want the DRM in this game would read through these Denuvo topics and consider the opinions here.
If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware.
The obvious thing to do in this case would be to change or remove the DRM with an update of the game. That's one of the beauty of digital distribution: releasing the game with Denuvo doesn't mean we have to use it forever.
If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware.
The obvious thing to do in this case would be to change or remove the DRM with an update of the game. That's one of the beauty of digital distribution: releasing the game with Denuvo doesn't mean we have to use it forever.
You have my genuine thanks for adressing the top concern in these forums. From what I understand, this is not your decision to make though. History shows that most publishers do not care about game preservation and won't care about removing the DRM. There's even an argument to be made that this isn't in their best interests, but more on that later.
Only a handful of games removed or replaced the Gamespy requirement, just as only a handful of games removed SecuROM. Why would Denuvo be any different? History shows that most of the stubborn publishers still using that middleware will simply forget their games even exist and sell you a new version again in a few years when that one stopped functioning. https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/SecuROM https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/GameSpy
In the meantime, in return for the resources and time the developer - you - has to waste on its implementation, you get unplayable games, performance issues and incompatibilities and it's your customers which have to deal with the consequences, making Denuvo counter-productive.
Do you think the streamer, or any of their viewers will buy another game with Denuvo after such a display of contempt for a legitimate customer's experience? When Denuvo servers are down on their side, games without a valid activation token will not start, online or not. A sizable part of the games that had Denuvo removed recently had it during last year's global outage, however some companies such as EA, SEGA, Frontier and Ubisoft DGAF about their users and kept it in showing how unlikely it is they'll remove it later. People also recently reported that it seems to trigger a 24 hour lockout if you play games on desktop computer and switch to the Steam Deck: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1687950/discussions/0/3489752656786031116/?ctp=2#c3489752656790504351
Another point I have seen made here was that Denuvo checks are similar to Steam checks, which is inaccurate. Contrary to Denuvo, Steamworks and the optional DRM it offers have no built-in expiration timer: Bar human error, a glitch or a publisher implementing their own DRM, you can stay offline indefinitely on Steam and keep enjoying your games for as long as you want even in the unlikely event of Steam's demise. Plus, even though they do not advertise that fact, Steam also sells some DRM-free games something which I might add your main competitor in the turn based strategy genre, Paradox, has been doing with excellent financial results for years.
Steamworks offers a plethora of services in exchange for the digital-only model which is why it's tolerated, even appreciated by most customers while Denuvo does not give anything back for the occasional inconvenience it represents.
Final point, there's a non negligible consideration that some fraction of the industry is using Denuvo as a way to artificially add planned obsolescence to their games, which is all the more deplorable that building a product to fail is an actual engineering design consideration injected by marketing and not a conspiracy theory. When producers of durable goods must compete with previous generations of their own products, firms can engage in planned obsolescence to limit the scope of this competition. This tends to be confirmed by publishers keeping Denuvo in their games when it has been available to pirates for years making the customer the only likely target of the middleware.
Ubisoft, for instance, recently tried to effectively remove games from their customer's library before quickly walking it back as a "misunderstanding" when put in front of a quickly rising backlash. Meanwhile SEGA kept Denuvo on several games for which they (mistakenly?) released the Denuvo-free executable themselves, meaning there's factually zero piracy prevented while they seemingly still pay for the middleware's recurrent fees.
All this, for something that has never proven it even has an effect on sales. Only around 25 games used Denuvo Anti Tamper last year after five years on a downward trend for its adoption rate, let that sink in for a moment.. Wouldn't every company use it if it had any indication that it worked? Piracy is mostly driven by ideological, systemic or socio-economic factors which can't be converted into sales by DRM, no matter how strong it is. In the end, most publishers don't put the burden of that belief on the shoulders of their customers, except for a few deluded executives of a handful of companies known for a long history of anti-consumer business practices.
As a conclusion, what gamers like you and me actually care about is the quality of their games... Denuvo isn't free and doesn't affect pirates who will just play one of the other 10394 games Steam released last year - that's the actual number - I own all your games and DLC, they are all the product of incredibly talented artists so why suddenly treating your loyal customers like thieves? Why not focus the wasted development time and resources towards something that will actually improve the value of the game instead? Why not take the time to develop a healthy relationship with your customers and give pirates incentives to buy instead of trying to force them to? Quality, affordability and availability are way better levers against piracy than any technological means of protection will ever be.
We don't need to be explained what Denuvo is, the company itself made sure any gamer worth their salt knows already by making the news on the regular with various controversies... whatwe actually need is devs to join pushback internally against an out of touch decision that will hurt all of us, gamers and developers alike while the middleware purveyor line their pockets with your hard earned revenue. This is far from everything I have to say about Denuvo but I think you got my point already and probably got fed up with me so... I hope you'll consider the unambiguously massive negative feedback the news sparked and in any event, good luck for the release.
If DRM goes defunct, then the only option is to send paying customers to really shady piracy websites to download sketchy cracks that may or may not contain malware.
The obvious thing to do in this case would be to change or remove the DRM with an update of the game. That's one of the beauty of digital distribution: releasing the game with Denuvo doesn't mean we have to use it forever.
Yes, that is the obvious thing to do. However, most devs don't care enough to do it. To many devs, once you've paid your money then you no longer matter. Not saying that Amplitude is specifically this way, but devs get busy and things get left behind. I mean, we don't even have the Let The Pug Out update for Dungeon of the Endless on PC, and there are outstanding bugs/issues in Endless Space 2 (including that game-breaking Dark Matter colonization bug, AFAICT). So given Amplitude's update track record, the odds look a bit slim that Amplitude would find the time to disable Denuvo unless that was to happen while Endless Dungeon is still an actively developed game that is receiving updates.
Very nice post @lukaself, I agree with all of your points.
Another point I have seen made here was that Denuvo checks are similar to Steam checks, which is inaccurate. Contrary to Denuvo, Steamworks and the optional DRM it offers have no built-in expiration timer: Bar human error, a glitch or a publisher implementing their own DRM, you can stay offline indefinitely on Steam and keep enjoying your games for as long as you want even in the unlikely event of Steam's demise. Plus, even though they do not advertise that fact, Steam also sells some DRM-free games something which I might add your main competitor in the turn based strategy genre, Paradox, has been doing with excellent financial results for years.
Exactly, Games with Denuvo are permamently made Online only, even if you could play offline, you would still have go Online every now and then just to get the check to continue playing offline, and if you dont have internet or the servers get screwed up, thats it, no more Endless Dungeon, all that money and time spent on ED, down the drain. As said by SpikeWallMan before, this game is one step away from becoming a digital brick just by having Denuvo.
Was really looking forward to this game but if its got Denuvo I won't be buying it until it is removed, that will be the release date for me.
If you want to incentivize people to buy your game and not pirate it, you can spend the 100000$ you gave to that trash company Denuvo on designing better multiplayer features, fostering a multiplayer community through discord, and also by making quality Steam frills like achievements, HQ animated backgrounds, avatars and frames.
Same reason I won't buy Sonic Frontiers @SEGA.
Its a shame I have to take this stance against a developer who I have great love and respect for.
Just gonna leave these here since they're relevant to current discourse but are always forgotten because they run counter to the "DRM protects sales" narrative:
EU study suppressed for concluding piracy does not affect sales:
I do not care what a creator does with their creation. I trust the people at Amplitude to make a good game and do not care what software they use. I am an artist and do not care about code. If it messes things up it will get removed because they are more worried about the game imo.
I do not care what a creator does with their creation. I trust the people at Amplitude to make a good game and do not care what software they use. I am an artist and do not care about code. If it messes things up it will get removed because they are more worried about the game imo.
I wouldn't be so confident about it getting removed for the reasons that I already stated. Also, saying "I am an artist and do not care about code" sort of implies that you don't care about your customers (i.e. the people who pay you), and that lack of care is what leads to broken DRM locking customers out of their purchases. Not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm just trying to point out how that's the stance that companies are already taking and is leading to the DRM issues that we are dealing with today.
Azure_Fang wrote:
Just gonna leave these here since they're relevant to current discourse but are always forgotten because they run counter to the "DRM protects sales" narrative:
EU study suppressed for concluding piracy does not affect sales:
Yep, but we aren't supposed to talk about these facts because piracy is an absolutely great excuse to unleash on unwitting investors if you have an earnings miss. So you really should be a good little consumer and sweep these reports back under the rug.
It is entirely likely that the publisher is using the lackluster earnings of Humankind to push piracy even harder for Amplitude games. Or Amplitude is using it to push it even harder at the publisher to get approval for the game. I don't know what you can do to push back against it because it is a hallmark of Sega games at this point.
Came to make this same post, glad someone else already made it. when I see this on the store page for any game, it makes me second guess ANY purchase, even this game, even when I've been looking forward to it for years now.
I also support the removal of Denuvo. Like a dev in this thread I also suffered from Spore using it. After 10+ years I still refuse to buy it again and keep continuously pirating it whenever I want to play it. I don't want ED go through the same thing Spore did. Humankind players stated this before, we're stating it again now.
I mentioned it in a previous Denuvo thread, but I still have my partner who doesn't wish to purchase the game anymore due to the Denuvo DRM implementation and it's heartbreaking since I was really looking forward to entering the space station with them.
I know not much can be done from the developer side, but I'm saying it anyways because this is a really important cause. If not for the people who are already getting the game with concerns, then for those who won't be joining us in the Endless Dungeon because of it:
I mentioned it in a previous Denuvo thread, but I still have my partner who doesn't wish to purchase the game anymore due to the Denuvo DRM implementation and it's heartbreaking since I was really looking forward to entering the space station with them.
I know not much can be done from the developer side, but I'm saying it anyways because this is a really important cause. If not for the people who are already getting the game with concerns, then for those who won't be joining us in the Endless Dungeon because of it:
I have been gaming ever since video gaming has been a commercial thing (45 years now). I can tell you with ease that if you wish your title to be best received AVOID DRMs such as denouvo...it is WIDELY known as the worst in the industry for a reason. I can point out lots of examples to you...Yet I will just point out one for you on Steam, which was Zero Hour...they totally killed off their playerbase when they implemented it. Basically I get it, the aszhats at Denouvo must contact every game producer out there and try and sell their trash software. If it was otherwise and you actually did it without any pressure sales pitch from them, then you are REALLY GREEN in the industry IMO...even games with MASSIVE fanbases nearly choke on such a brutally insane idea as putting such in their title, like Dying Light 2...and almost everyone would still be happier without it. Yet because they were so large they could take the hit...Zero Hour's PvP playerbase just disintegrated when they put it in...be smart, MAKE BENEFICIAL CHOICES...learn how this industry works....if you want ADVICE you have it here FOR FREE from myself!
im in love with amplitude studios but they really think that this game dont gonna show up in igg-games or some else piracy website such as piracy in reddit? (i dont support it btw)
i really wanted to buy it but then i saw denuvo, couldn't believe
Yeah I also am not going to buy Endless Dungeon until Denuvo is removed (if it ever is). This Thread has become the 5th most popular thread of all time on this site, and Second most popular thread here if you dont count the inactive thread's. And just now, after Endless Day and the new trailers/announcements for Endless Dungeon, the Steam community hub side of Endless Dungeon has erupted in Anti-Denuvo Threads. The community has spoken. Please Amplitude, remove this DRM, Because at this point there is very little doubt, the number of Potential buyers refusing to purchase the game because of the DRM now outweigh the number of pirates the DRM would stop.
The first Open Dev I played in the game ran like shit. It's hard to be sure if it was Denuvo or not since the graphics settings weren't customizable enough then. Denuvo is trash and it's a shame that the money people do the money things and put this crap in the game. Even if it didn't impact performance I don't want it in Endless Dungeon or any other game.
Juste un mot, que je me permets en français, pour soutenir ce topic.
Votre jeu possède un mode multijoueur obligeant l'achat pour en profiter, d'une part et, tous les jeux Denuvo arrivent un jour sur les sites pirates, ce n'est qu'une question de temps.
Les "joueurs" qui n'achètent pas leurs jeux ont le temps, vu la liste à faire et les ventes sur PC sont souvent du long terme, pas comme sur console, ou le piratage est depuis 2 générations très compliqué voir impossible. Il ne semble donc pas nécessaire d'employer ce genre d'outils.
Les seules personnes qui seront, potentiellement, impactées par votre DRM seront celles ayant payées et vos ventes n'auront, d'après la plupart des retours connus par différents studios ou éditeur, été que peu, voir pas du tout, impactées.
I will play this one, but actually perf are bad even on high tier pc, maybe it is denuvo maybe not, I won't make any ad for this game until denuvo is remove/abandonned
We all know that it wasn't Amplitude that chose to integrate Denuvo, it's SEGA forcing all their studios to do so!
With 1.5 million G2G points for this thread (thank you btw) and many people who have expressed their opinion about Denuvo and said they won't buy the game if it's included, I thinkit's clear what the community expects from Amplitude:
If you can't defend yourself against using Denuvo because of SEGA, at least REMOVE IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!
Why should you keep using this software, after a pirated version of the game has become widely available? At this point Denuvo will lose its purpose (protecting the initial sales window), so why should you continue punishing your paying customers with worse performance, all kinds of technical problems and the risk that the game becomes unplayable?
I know it's probably not easy for you to say if and when you will remove Denuvo without getting in trouble with SEGA, but this thread became the biggest riot this forum has ever seen! You renamed Games2Gether and now call us your "Amplifiers".
Our voice is loud and clear.
So please don't ignore us. Please don't be silent.
I would like to end with a personal note:
When I get my paycheck end of this month I will pre-order Endless Dungeon, but I won't play it. I won't even install it because of the crap it comes with. From a financial point of view, well done, you sold me your product.
But as passionate designers and gamers yourself, are you happy to hear something like this? I wouldn't be...
Way to go Denuvo! Working overtime to give pirates a superior experience. Why would anyone NOT wait to pirate the game in that case? Seriously, DRM is dumb and everyone knows it so I don't understand why companies keep inflicting it on the customers who care enough to actually pay for a game. It's just absurd.
Khaar wrote:
When I get my paycheck end of this month I will pre-order Endless Dungeon, but I won't play it. I won't even install it because of the crap it comes with. From a financial point of view, well done, you sold me your product..
I'm going to have to take it a step farther. I have a really hard and fast rule that I will only ever buy Denuvo'd games at a super-deep discount. To me, Denuvo'd games are basically a really bad rental, and I'm only willing to pay bad rental prices for them. On the other hand, I really want to support Amplitude so this Denuvo thing is really causing me a lot of grief. I hope that Amplitude reverses this decision before release so I can stop hesitating on a potential preorder.
Woah. 1.5 million G2G PTS for this thread. Impressive support. *applause*
Yeah, for example during this whole "Hogwarts Legacy" drama/debacle going on right now, you have one side say boycott due to some political reasons. Then the other side say buy, buy, buy, but also for some political reason just to oppose the other side, whether they will actually play the game or not. During all that, all I saw and cared about was that it says it will have "Third Party-DRM: Denuvo Anti-Tampering".
Since I have never been one of those huge fans of Harry Potter, although I did enjoyed the early movies (the latest ones not so much) and have even rewatched them, since I just like the atmosphere in them for some reason, and even if the game looks pretty cool, that is what pushed me over into deciding not to pre-order the game. Not that me buying it or not will affect anything on the larger scale of things (I have no such illusions of my influence, other than being one potential customer). The game seems to be selling just fine without my pre-order, but still, a game having an intrusive DRM like Denuvo can be a deciding factor for me at least. Especially if it's a game where I am like 50/50 if I want to play it ot not. Then something like a DRM can tip the scale for me over to the "NOT to buy" side. Then I'll either wait and see if they remove Denuvo after a while, buy it cheap during a sale, or not at all, not even during a sale. It all depends on what other factors also are involved in my decision making.
Something that seems to have been overlooked, forgotten and lost among all the screaming from the two opposing sides on if to buy that game or not. Something that usually creates an uproar suddenly seems less important to some. Something that actually affects the game, possibly performance and potentially your privacy.
Just adding another voice which may or may not get me banned from posting but I myself will absolutely wait for a pirated version. I refuse to pay for or support the use of Denuvo in any product, I had some fun with the meta-beta's in a VM environment and waiting 2 days after release to play the game again isnt a big deal. If you want your studio to become just anther Ubisoft or EA style self destruct by all means continue counting beans until people stop giving you beans to count and leave you to wonder what happened to all the loyal fans of your previous products.
I know it's probably not easy for you to say if and when you will remove Denuvo without getting in trouble with SEGA, but this thread became the biggest riot this forum has ever seen! You renamed Games2Gether and now call us your "Amplifiers".
Our voice is loud and clear.
So please don't ignore us. Please don't be silent.
Best part, it took Empress less than two weeks to crack that implementation. Denuvo's status as Holy Grail is long over, and at this point it's hard to believe it "protects launch sales" enough to recoup its licensing cost.
Best part, it took Empress less than two weeks to crack that implementation. Denuvo's status as Holy Grail is long over, and at this point it's hard to believe it "protects launch sales" enough to recoup its licensing cost.
Oh, I'm sure it's not recouping the licensing cost. Don't forget the development costs either. It's all just a scam sold by expert grifters at Denuvo/Irdeto.
1.75 Million G2G Points, This Thread is now one of the top 3 most popular threads on the site , at this point, is there any doubt that Denuvo will Economically hurt Amplitude more than pirates will. I dont know how many pirates Amplitude and/or Sega are expecting, but surely the number of people both here and on the steam discussions saying they wont buy the game should equal if not outnumber the number of pirates expected.
This Debate might as well be over, for a Consensus has been reached, From the amount of anti-Denuvo threads on steam and the amount of upvotes for this thread, the Community has seemingly rejected Denuvo, and will not buy or play Endless Dungeon as long as Denuvo remains in it.
I know I'm out-of scope, but I'm playing all my games on Linux (with Proton). The endless series work nicely, but I'm a bit concerned this DRM will lock me out of the game :(
I can confirm that all third-party anti-cheat malware (let's call it what it is) has a terrible record with/on Proton. Similar story with Easy Anti Cheat, another popular program. Humankind was basically bricked on Linux until they removed Denuvo, after which it ran and still runs very well.
Remove Denuvo or no buy. It's absolutely disgusting that you would betray your loyal fans like this. We do not want this. Remove it now or you will regret it.
Just adding another voice which may or may not get me banned from posting but I myself will absolutely wait for a pirated version. I refuse to pay for or support the use of Denuvo in any product, I had some fun with the meta-beta's in a VM environment and waiting 2 days after release to play the game again isnt a big deal. If you want your studio to become just anther Ubisoft or EA style self destruct by all means continue counting beans until people stop giving you beans to count and leave you to wonder what happened to all the loyal fans of your previous products.
Yes, exactly. Why should we purchase an inferior version when we can just wait for the safer, cleaner, and better performing pirated version?
1.9 million G2G points... but we still feel completely ignored
this thread is the second most popular all Time thread already and is probably the number 1 Most recent popular thread, hopefully with the delay of this game, They might remove denuvo sometime in the next 5-6 months, because to ignore this amount of backlash would just be asking for the game to fail.
I also gave my response that I don't buy Denuvo games unless they are significantly discounted. So we're at an impasse here that I hope can be resolved before release.
Well, it's not "Games2Gether" anymore and it shows it wasn't just the name that changed. What did happen for them to go from developing with the input of their customers front and center to simply ignoring the massive negative feedback?
Well, it's not "Games2Gether" anymore and it shows it wasn't just the name that changed. What did happen for them to go from developing with the input of their customers front and center to simply ignoring the massive negative feedback?
1.9 million G2G points... but we still feel completely ignored
this thread is the second most popular all Time thread already and is probably the number 1 Most recent popular thread, hopefully with the delay of this game, They might remove denuvo sometime in the next 5-6 months, because to ignore this amount of backlash would just be asking for the game to fail.
What is the most popular thread and how much does it have?
1.9 million G2G points... but we still feel completely ignored
this thread is the second most popular all Time thread already and is probably the number 1 Most recent popular thread, hopefully with the delay of this game, They might remove denuvo sometime in the next 5-6 months, because to ignore this amount of backlash would just be asking for the game to fail.
What is the most popular thread and how much does it have?
2.1 million now btw!
The Endless Legend Community Patch Thread is currently the most popular thread of all time at 4.3M
It's good that it is possible to not have to use Denuvo, in today's internet age.
But it's incredibly disrespectful, and holds game developers, and in some instances, game publishers, hostage.
Context, you want to express gratitude to a franchise you're enthusiastic about, but Denuvo / DRM is something you refuse to touch with a barge pole, ever. So you can still enjoy the game experience, but the overall human aspect, of supporting your economy, civilisation and society, through a system that makes sense, such as the buying and selling of goods, and illustrating what should be used to increase value, DRM and Denuvo, in this specific instance, clearly has a negative impact on the brand image, the work-place culture, and the consumer to developer & publisher relationship. It is a massive depreciation force that is wholly unnecessary.
Remember Bioware? An indipendant game studio that released Mass Effect (1), Jade Empire, Baulder's Gate?
Remember Amplitude? See where I'm going with this? DRM depreciates brand identity, and facilities an identity where you're encouraged to think that no organic life is involved with the game, its process, its publishing, and your enjoyment of it; when the DRM servers turn off, you lose your access to participate in the product. You do not own the game, you own a license to the game--- this is actually NOT TRUE, you pay not for a license to play the game, but for access to the DRM servers, to enable you to access the product.
It is so long-winded and besides the point, which is the actual main intend I wanted to touch on with this entire post, so thank you for being polite and allowing me to epxress that.
Amplitude is nice, pleasant-- no matter where you are on the planet, if you can access the internet and steam, you can sign-up to their website (this one here) and have access to Endless Space (1), on steam, for free. Perhaps, it's on the consumer, to help them, and encourage Corporate and (in)human resources that by remembering to tick a box on a form, to not have DRM, it will help send the right message, and increase the value of SEGA stock and share price, for a multitude of positive reasons.
Thank you for taking the time to create the thread. That'll make it much more likely others who want to chime in on the topic will join the existing discussion than if it lived in the comments of the announcements.
"we're listening" has been a stale corporate response for the past decade or so. I appreciate and support the obvious "Denuvo bad" comments, but I was hoping to look at this from a different angle for a second here.
Could you outline the company's actual reasoning for paying Deuvo for their service? You must believe that their product is providing you some kind of value, but a significant portion of your customers can't see what it is. Is there some kind of contractual obligation to put it on all of your games? Is AMPLITUTE or SEGA mandating this?
Grifta wrote: Could you outline the company's actual reasoning for paying Deuvo for their service? You must believe that their product is providing you some kind of value, but a significant portion of your customers can't see what it is. Is there some kind of contractual obligation to put it on all of your games? Is AMPLITUTE or SEGA mandating this?
The devs stated it when they tried to put it on Humankind and also in some replies earlier in this thread. They believe it will help them secure sales at launch which is when they get the bulk of their sales (paraphrased from their statements, not my opinion). That Humankind was going to launch with Denuvo but they didn't must mean that it is either not an obligation or that it's a negotiable one.
I'm not seeing anyone from Amplitude saying that in this thread. However, that was mentioned in relation to other company's games, and a popular theory in the comments.
The most detail that I've seen is from Astamarr on page 4, but every dev comment has been a version of:
"Denuvo is a certainty, and this is how we will mitigate the problems we know it causes"
When the development of the game was starting, hopefully someone constructed an equation and concluded that this was true:
$ sales gained by using Denuvo > ( $ cost of Denuvo license + $ cost of development time to mitigate performance losses + $ sales lost for using Denuvo )
Did someone actually investigate that or just hand-wave it because "obviously you need piracy protection in addition to Steam because that's how we've always done it"? Does Denuvo have some kind of mind-blowing presentation and piles of real data that proves that their anti-piracy service has any value?
Consumers who know about it don't like it It is 100% proven to negatively impact development I have never seen an evidence-based business case that shows that it actually prevents piracy more than a simple activation check (see Steam)
I am legitimately interested in how nothing but proven zero / negative value of their service resulted in AMPLITUDE's decision to give Denuvo money. Maybe investors have no idea, but they required it as some ill-conceived risk-mitigation?
Since everyone else is speculating, my personal theory is that Sega is behind everything here. If you look at Sega's other games, it looks like they fell for Denuvo's lie that each downloaded copy of a game directly translates to a lost sale, and as a result they are putting Denuvo in basically everything that they release. (Even re-releases of older games like Sonic Origins and Sonic Colors have it.) So my guess is that Sega has handed down an ultimatum to Amplitude that Denuvo be added or else. Unfortunately, this situation will undoubtedly hurt Amplitude's sales, but there's nothing that they can do about it.
Since everyone else is speculating, my personal theory is that Sega is behind everything here. If you look at Sega's other games, it looks like they fell for Denuvo's lie that each downloaded copy of a game directly translates to a lost sale, and as a result they are putting Denuvo in basically everything that they release. (Even re-releases of older games like Sonic Origins and Sonic Colors have it.) So my guess is that Sega has handed down an ultimatum to Amplitude that Denuvo be added or else. Unfortunately, this situation will undoubtedly hurt Amplitude's sales, but there's nothing that they can do about it.
I mean it's probably that everyone whose job it is to read any of this already knows that it's an objectively bad idea, but the decision makers have some reason to do it anyway. Just sucks that I can't support the game at launch. The money people will decide that the game was a flop due to lower launch sales and then finally allow the devs to remove it.
Maybe one day they will realize that Denuvo are snake oil salesmen, but unlikely.
Since everyone else is speculating, my personal theory is that Sega is behind everything here. If you look at Sega's other games, it looks like they fell for Denuvo's lie that each downloaded copy of a game directly translates to a lost sale, and as a result they are putting Denuvo in basically everything that they release. (Even re-releases of older games like Sonic Origins and Sonic Colors have it.) So my guess is that Sega has handed down an ultimatum to Amplitude that Denuvo be added or else. Unfortunately, this situation will undoubtedly hurt Amplitude's sales, but there's nothing that they can do about it.
I mean it's probably that everyone whose job it is to read any of this already knows that it's an objectively bad idea, but the decision makers have some reason to do it anyway. Just sucks that I can't support the game at launch. The money people will decide that the game was a flop due to lower launch sales and then finally allow the devs to remove it.
Maybe one day they will realize that Denuvo are snake oil salesmen, but unlikely.
Considering Nintendo effectively legitimized Denuvo by contracting Irdeto to produce a Denuvo build for physical Switch games (and publish a digital slam-book about the dangers emulation as a whole poses to business security), I don't see them losing traction any time soon, sadly.
Remember kids, maintaining the illusion of profit-security is more important to the corpos than your opinion as a paying customer.
Considering Nintendo effectively legitimized Denuvo by contracting Irdeto to produce a Denuvo build for physical Switch games (and publish a digital slam-book about the dangers emulation as a whole poses to business security)
Did anyone ever confirm that Nintendo actually contracted with Irdeto to do all of this? The last thing I heard was that Irdeto was doing all of that on their own in hopes of getting Nintendo's attention (and money).
Could you outline the company's actual reasoning for paying Deuvo for their service? You must believe that their product is providing you some kind of value, but a significant portion of your customers can't see what it is. Is there some kind of contractual obligation to put it on all of your games? Is AMPLITUTE or SEGA mandating this?
As SpikedWallMan has pointed out, SEGA has been using Denuvo in all its releases for a while. Amplitude itself never used DRM measures like these before they were bought by SEGA.
So the answer is obvious, SEGA requires Amplitude to use Devnuvo.
It's almost impossible that Amplitude doesn't notice what's happening here in this thread and how much we as players are protesting. However, no matter how many people here comment that they don't buy the game because Denuvo, no matter how many up votes the thread gets, no matter what we say or do, neither can Amplitude:
a) make negative comments about Denuvo
b) decide for themselves that Denuvo will not be included in the game (even if they want)
c) announce that Denuvo will be removed from the game at some point after the release (even if they want)
In other words, Amplitude CANNOT address all the negative feedback here without getting MASSIVE PROBLEMS with SEGA!!! They are FORCED to remain silent...
That's a shame considering where amplitude comes from.
So Amplitude, I know you're reading this: Was it worth getting bought by SEGA? I hope one day you will regain your freedom and return to your roots.
Considering Nintendo effectively legitimized Denuvo by contracting Irdeto to produce a Denuvo build for physical Switch games (and publish a digital slam-book about the dangers emulation as a whole poses to business security)
Did anyone ever confirm that Nintendo actually contracted with Irdeto to do all of this? The last thing I heard was that Irdeto was doing all of that on their own in hopes of getting Nintendo's attention (and money).
I remember reading an official confirmation earlier this year (long after the August 2022 statements that Nintendo had nothing to do with Irdeto's plans), but for the life of me I can't find the announcement now.
Since everyone else is speculating, my personal theory is that Sega is behind everything here. If you look at Sega's other games, it looks like they fell for Denuvo's lie that each downloaded copy of a game directly translates to a lost sale, and as a result they are putting Denuvo in basically everything that they release. (Even re-releases of older games like Sonic Origins and Sonic Colors have it.) So my guess is that Sega has handed down an ultimatum to Amplitude that Denuvo be added or else. Unfortunately, this situation will undoubtedly hurt Amplitude's sales, but there's nothing that they can do about it.
If Sega's fear is in lost sales as the primary motivater, then that argument should be used against them. The number of players refusing to purchase the game because of denuvo is guranteed by now to be bigger than the number of pirates that want this game, meaning having Denuvo will result in more lost sales then not having it, removing it would also result in positive PR getting even more people to purchase the game.
If Sega's fear is in lost sales as the primary motivater, then that argument should be used against them. The number of players refusing to purchase the game because of denuvo is guranteed by now to be bigger than the number of pirates that want this game, meaning having Denuvo will result in more lost sales then not having it, removing it would also result in positive PR getting even more people to purchase the game.
I agree that the number of truly lost sales by people who aren't going to buy the game due to Denuvo outweigh the theoretical lost sales thanks to piracy (which aren't lost sales at all since pirates are technically not customers). I guess the only upshot here is that if Amplitude misses their sales mark, they can always to point back to this thread and give Sega a big "I told you so" and Sega won't be able to counter by whining about piracy like they usually do. But it's still going to be a lose-lose for everyone.
"Following this interview, Irdeto issued a press release stating that they forgot to mention that Denuvo is also capable of curing halitosis, turning lead into gold, and foretelling the future. They were also excited to announce preorders for a bridge that will be available for sale by the end of 2023."
What a massive disappointment. Looking forward to the mixed reviews on steam ... something that makes sure your game doesn't sell well after release.
If it helps at all as an argument for your moronic publishers: I own every game of yours with every DLC and played them for hundreds of hours, I usually don't preorder games, you are one of the two studios I make an exception for. I've always recommended your games to like minded gamer friends and they've become fans as well. I'm pretty sure there's lots of people like me. So with this decision to add Denuvo and way of communicating you've not only lost a customer, but an ambassador.
Just thought I'd post a reminder to the decision-makers at Sega that I did not buy this game solely because of the Denuvo addition. Hope your theoretical sales gained by combating "the pirates" make up for this actual lost sale.
(Oh, and same goes for Sonic Superstars. The Denuvo on that game turned me so far off that I completely forgot about it being released this week.)
Just thought I'd post a reminder to the decision-makers at Sega that I did not buy this game solely because of the Denuvo addition. Hope your theoretical sales gained by combating "the pirates" make up for this actual lost sale.
(Oh, and same goes for Sonic Superstars. The Denuvo on that game turned me so far off that I completely forgot about it being released this week.)
+1, While I will still keep in touch with the games progress via updates, dev blogs, recent reviews etc, this is the first Endless Franchise game that I refuse to purchase because of Denuvo. and judging from the games reviews and discussions, Endless Dungeon has more then just denuvo to worry about as well, which is sad, because Amplitude has proven multiples times that they can make better games, and all those games made without Denuvo.
The game has been out for a month now. How much longer until the release window is over, and Denuvo is removed from the game? Because I really want to play it, but that will only happen once Denuvo has been patched out!
The game has been out for a month now. How much longer until the release window is over, and Denuvo is removed from the game? Because I really want to play it, but that will only happen once Denuvo has been patched out!
Yeah, what's that magic number that Denvuo likes to toss around in their scare ads? 2 weeks? So Denuvo is worthless now because the pirates have given up on this game, right?
The game has been out for a month now. How much longer until the release window is over, and Denuvo is removed from the game? Because I really want to play it, but that will only happen once Denuvo has been patched out!
Yeah, what's that magic number that Denvuo likes to toss around in their scare ads? 2 weeks? So Denuvo is worthless now because the pirates have given up on this game, right?
Ive heard some say that the release window can be as long as 3 months, maybe even more, as of right now Its unkown when denuvo if ever will be removed from the game.
Ive heard some say that the release window can be as long as 3 months, maybe even more, as of right now Its unkown when denuvo if ever will be removed from the game.
If it takes that long, maybe I can finally play the game when the first major DLC is released, LOL.
Why do developers have to torture their customers with their anti-consumerism practices? Can't they take Larian Studios, CD Projekt Red, and FromSoftware as examples? Heck, even Rockstar doesn't pull these moves.
Why do developers have to torture their customers with their anti-consumerism practices? Can't they take Larian Studios, CD Projekt Red, and FromSoftware as examples? Heck, even Rockstar doesn't pull these moves.
I can only heartily agree !
Respecting his followers and customer base always pays off.
Why do developers have to torture their customers with their anti-consumerism practices? Can't they take Larian Studios, CD Projekt Red, and FromSoftware as examples? Heck, even Rockstar doesn't pull these moves.
Agreed. I have heard rumors that it can be bypassed in Elden Ring, but the fact that FromSoft put EAC in there in the first place makes them a bad example.
Its been 4 months and judging from the steam charts and review count, I believe its safe to say that the release window is over now.
In four days, it will be three months, but nevertheless, I agree with you; the release period is long past, and sales should have already dropped to a minimum. According to SteamDB, the game now has only between 30 and 160 players concurrently each day. Therefore, Denuvo seems to have long fulfilled its (supposed) purpose and is entirely unnecessary:
I sincerely hope that Denuvo will now be removed from the game, and I can FINALLY play the game that I pre-ordered...
Please, Amplitude, stop ignoring us all for so long. It's starting to feel like you're spitting on us.
Not sure, if I'd buy Endless Dungeon, now. I didn't buy on release because of Denuvo. Waiting for better reviews, as long as the current content/replay value seems to lack.
Its been 4 months and judging from the steam charts and review count, I believe its safe to say that the release window is over now.
In four days, it will be three months, but nevertheless, I agree with you; the release period is long past, and sales should have already dropped to a minimum. According to SteamDB, the game now has only between 30 and 160 players concurrently each day. Therefore, Denuvo seems to have long fulfilled its (supposed) purpose and is entirely unnecessary:
I sincerely hope that Denuvo will now be removed from the game, and I can FINALLY play the game that I pre-ordered...
Please, Amplitude, stop ignoring us all for so long. It's starting to feel like you're spitting on us.
As much as I hope for the game to succeed, I fear its already too late, having lost 98.4% of players in just the past 2 months, which is a catastrophic failure given this game clearly puts multiplayer upfront and center, a multiplayer game with little to no multiplayer activity is a failed game, and most people have commented that they cant even find public matches anymore now. mixed reviews being as low as 52% in recent reviews, and its major updates arent helping, with the "on the rocks" patch is being called the nerf patch with a across the board nerf of almost every player equipment and ability, enemies got stronger while the only actual player buff being that turret damage was increased by 10%, which judging by the comments to it, has failed to address the real problem with turrets like the range and/or placement of the turrets. And with Endless Dungeon already being on its last legs, what does amplitude do, whip out the plushie. I fear this game is already dead.
While I'm not going to jump on the "doom and gloom" bandwagon here, I will point out that this is starting to look like one of those cases where a dev promises to remove the DRM and then forgets about it because something else comes up. I've seen it happen time and time again where devs insist that they've added something as a short-term thing and that they will definitely remove the DRM, add an offline mode, patch a bug, add a quality of life feature, etc. at a later date, but then development gets hectic, they start working on their next game, the game gets abandoned, the studio closes, etc. and the "short-term" compromise never gets resolved.
So I'm not saying that Amplitude is intentionally acting maliciously, but I'm just pointing out the fallacy of the "it's a temporary measure that will only be in place for a few weeks" DRM argument that's used to try to trick customers into thinking that DRM really isn't that bad.
Today marks exactly six months since Endless Dungeon was released. Despite expressing my dislike for Denuvo before the release, I still pre-ordered the game. I had trusted that Denuvo was only meant to protect potential sales during the release period, but that this software would be removed later. However, to this day, that has not happened. That's why, while I own Endless Dungeon, I haven't installed or played it yet (except for the Insider Preview to provide feedback).
I am truly disappointed. Amplitude remains completely silent, ignoring this extremely popular thread for ages and not signaling in any way that Denuvo will be removed anytime soon. My disappointment with my once-favorite developer has grown so much that I must reluctantly say that I will no longer purchase additional content for Endless Dungeon. I also won't pre-order any games from Amplitude anymore unless it is explicitly stated by Amplitude that they will refrain from using Denuvo and similar software in future games.
I say this as someone who was so loyal to Amplitude that I even bought all the DLCs for Endless Space 2, even though I didn't enjoy the game nearly as much as ES1 or my beloved Endless Legend. But times change, people change, business partners change (hello SEGA). Perhaps Amplitude will eventually return to its roots, or maybe it's time for me to bid farewell to Amplitude.
Still haven't bought it. It's sort of fallen off my radar at this point so I didn't realize that they still haven't removed the DRM.
I guess there's maybe some truth to the "first two weeks" myth that Denuvo uses to scare devs - except that the way the story really goes is that if you don't grab the attention of people like me in the first two weeks then I forget to buy it until there's a massive sale that reminds me to check if the DRM has been removed. So the devs are losing money either way, but the key difference here is that there was definitely a lost preorder from me instead of some vague "lost sales due to piracy" statistic that can't be measured or proved.
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Deep Elite
Ripley: They cut the power. Private Hudson: What do you mean *they* cut the power? How could they cut the power, man? They're animals!
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Deep Elite
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Mirror
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Mirror
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Eyder Precursor
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Eyder Precursor
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Old Insider
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Addict
Man I love memes
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Old Guardian
test
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Old Guardian
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Lost Drakken
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Lost Drakken
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Hipster Worm
war, let the battles begin!
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Hipster Worm
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Fresh
Hahahaha
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Fresh
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Chameleon
Talk is Cheap. That's because Supply exceeds Demand.
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Chameleon
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Blue
B A M
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Blue
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Face in Disguise
yellowNoose
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Face in Disguise
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
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Hissho Meister
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The Bug
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The Bug
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Newcomer
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Newcomer
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Brave Meat
Shadows is everywhere
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Brave Meat
51 900g2g ptsReport comment
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
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Old Guardian
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Astronaut
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VIP Lord
your's sincerely !!! Lord Funk
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VIP Lord
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Old One
In praise of shadows.
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Old One
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Archivist Chameleon
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Archivist Chameleon
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
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Old Guardian
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Newcomer
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Newcomer
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Lore Guardian
Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.
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Lore Guardian
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Blue Spark
Rrha quel ra pic tes yor
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Blue Spark
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Astronaut
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
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Hissho Meister
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Love Thyself
*sploosh*
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Love Thyself
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Newcomer
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Newcomer
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Newcomer
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
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Old Guardian
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Senior Insider
Universe is probably filled with many creatures like us
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Senior Insider
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
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Hissho Meister
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Solitary Immortal
I will not die, you can't make me
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Solitary Immortal
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Solitary Immortal
I will not die, you can't make me
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Solitary Immortal
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Astronaut
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Broken Addict
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Broken Addict
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Lore Guardian
Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.
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Lore Guardian
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Enthusiast Survivor
May the force of Auriga be with you, young Padawan !
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Enthusiast Survivor
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
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Old Guardian
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
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Hissho Meister
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Enthusiast
https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/ideas/511-population-growth-qol-suggestion-how-growing-pop-is-determined-and-where-it-grows
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Enthusiast
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Sanitary Insider
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Sanitary Insider
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Aurigan Mercy
- Arkalis
VIPArkalis
Aurigan Mercy
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Sanitary Insider
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Sanitary Insider
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Astronaut
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Sanitary Insider
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Sanitary Insider
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Blue Spark
Rrha quel ra pic tes yor
INAzure_Fang
Blue Spark
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
INKhaar
Old Guardian
84 200g2g ptsReport comment
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Blue Spark
Rrha quel ra pic tes yor
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Blue Spark
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
DragonGaming
Hissho Meister
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Sanitary Insider
INGrifta
Sanitary Insider
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Refreezerator
EndlessDoom
Refreezerator
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Love Sentient
Saviouress
Love Sentient
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Broken Addict
lukaself
Broken Addict
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
DragonGaming
Hissho Meister
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
INKhaar
Old Guardian
84 200g2g ptsReport comment
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
DragonGaming
Hissho Meister
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
INKhaar
Old Guardian
84 200g2g ptsReport comment
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Newcomer
jams3223
Newcomer
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United Insider
Endless Lover
INPlapla
United Insider
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Solitary Immortal
I will not die, you can't make me
VIPCaptainCobbs
Solitary Immortal
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
DragonGaming
Hissho Meister
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Lore Guardian
Line your necks up, monsters. I just sharpened my sword.
INSublustris
Lore Guardian
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
INKhaar
Old Guardian
84 200g2g ptsReport comment
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Enthusiast Survivor
May the force of Auriga be with you, young Padawan !
VIPGroo
Enthusiast Survivor
51 400g2g ptsReport comment
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Hissho Meister
The Hissho and Drakken are the true icons of the endless universe
DragonGaming
Hissho Meister
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Astronaut
SpikedWallMan
Astronaut
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Old Guardian
I LOVE the Endless Games!
INKhaar
Old Guardian
84 200g2g ptsReport comment
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Astronaut
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Astronaut
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