Logo Platform
logo amplifiers simplified
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

3 years ago Sep 27,2022, 15:00:29 PM

First Run Debrief Summary

Reply
2 255 Views
54 Comments

Recently we sat down with our Creative Director and the Lead Game Designer of ENDLESS™ Dungeon to talk about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we got, and answer some of your burning questions. Of course, not everybody can make it to a live stream, so our little chat is now available as a video on demand to watch at your leisure.

 


If you want a quick idea of what we discussed, here’s a summary of some of the most important questions: 

 

What do you think about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we received? 

We think the First Run went quite well. People were really excited to try the game and gave us a lot of great feedback. Of course, the first time you let players try your game is always a bit scary, because suddenly the game is no longer just your project. This was especially true with ENDLESS™ Dungeon, because while we take inspiration from Dungeon of the ENDLESS™, some core elements like direct control of your heroes and timed waves of enemies are big departures. These changes may feel counter-intuitive at first glance, but when you play the game, it just clicks for us, and it seems many players agree. Nonetheless, the balance of tactics and action is crucial for this game, and we’re still working to hit that sweet spot, so all the discussions about this are great feedback for us. 

 

Some players were concerned about the pressure created by the timed waves. They felt rushed rather than taking time to think. How do you plan to address that? 

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action. However, the time between waves isn’t determined just by a clock ticking down; the actions you take when exploring the dungeon also affect the time until the next wave arrives. This should keep a good balance between action and time for exploration, but we are still refining this pacing. 

 

In the First Run OpenDev, you only had a few different turrets you could build. How do you plan to keep the game tactical? 

Where you place which turrets may be a big part of your strategy in ENDLESS™ Dungeon, but it’s not the only important tactical decision to make. Your important decisions already start with which doors you open: Can you perhaps funnel enemies into a well-prepared defensive position? Can you afford to open a side path looking for rewards, even if it might weaken your defenses? Then you also have to consider your economy.  At first you might always favor industry for the ability to quickly build more turrets, but in the full game the individual runs will be longer than in the OpenDev, so you have to think about the long-term benefits of leveling up your heroes or researching new turrets. That said, we’re also working to improve the gameplay around turrets, especially early in the run. It should be a little easier to unlock new turrets in the future, and you will be able to simply replace existing turrets, so won’t have to hold back building your defenses. 

 

Speaking of doors and defensive positions, some players missed the ability to manage your power like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. What are your plans for dark rooms? 

While dark rooms and power management felt like a core part of the Dungeon of the ENDLESS™ experience, and we take a lot of inspiration from the previous game, they are a feature we weren’t sure we could add to ENDLESS™ Dungeon at first. Shifting your power on the fly just did not mesh well with the direct control and more action-packed core loop of ENDLESS™ Dungeon. It wasn’t until we tried making the decision permanent that things fell into place: You might not frantically redirect power in a tight spot anymore, but you have to plan your route and which rooms you need to power for resources or defense all the more carefully, as you won’t be able to recover your crystal shards once spent. 

However, given the danger to your crystal bot when collecting them, powering a single room did not feel like an appropriate use of a crystal shard. So we will add Dust as a separate resource for powering rooms and found in various containers throughout the dungeon, while crystal shards will still need to be collected by your bot and are used to unlock upgrades. This means we can have more dark rooms, but powering them will still be permanent and Dust is still a limited resource, so you will have to choose carefully. And we may even have some surprises in store... 



This should cover the most common questions, but we discussed several other topics during the stream as well, like balancing and progression or quality of life improvements, so be sure to check it out when you have the time! 

Copied to clipboard!
3 years ago
Oct 5, 2022, 2:08:06 PM
AlasThor wrote:

It is not for the players that we implement those system but for staying competitive in the industry.

so does that mean amplitude will be removing denuvo a month after launch when denuvo's use had come to its end?

0Send private message
3 years ago
Oct 6, 2022, 3:44:28 AM

Personally I don't care if games have DRM or not.
But performance impacts might be really bad for some people, so I feel for them tbh.

And all the mechanic changes from Dungeon of the Endless being criticised and questioned?
It mainly because this game looks like "Dungeon of the Endless 2" and is titled "Endless Dungeon".
The title and marketing are "pretty much" pitching it as a sequel.

But gameplay wise it's clearly not a sequel.
They're going in a completely different direction.
Which is totally fine.
You can't really blame some DotE fans for reacting negatively to what they think are "changes" though.


Making a "sequel but not actually a sequel" kind of follow up game always have this kind of problem.
So I hope the devs don't take the negative feedback too badly. It just comes with the territory.
And proves how much people love DotE. Which is a good thing!

0Send private message
3 years ago
Oct 6, 2022, 11:50:49 AM
Lupercal_27 wrote:

Personally I don't care if games have DRM or not.
But performance impacts might be really bad for some people, so I feel for them tbh.

Performance is irrelevant if your game completely stops working thanks to the DRM being outdated/unsupported.  That's my problem with DRM.



Lupercal_27 wrote:

And all the mechanic changes from Dungeon of the Endless being criticised and questioned?
It mainly because this game looks like "Dungeon of the Endless 2" and is titled "Endless Dungeon".
The title and marketing are "pretty much" pitching it as a sequel.

Except that I'm not really seeing a lot of "but it's not DotE 2" criticism from the fans.  I think that most everyone here has accepted that this is a different type of game altogether.  A majority of the criticism (including mine) seems to be more along the lines of "you are trying to do X in an action game, and doing X makes it less fun than other action games" instead of just wishing for DotE 2.  (And the most recurring criticism there seems to be the timed waves.)  If anything, Amplitude are the biggest proponents of sticking to DotE's strategy mechanics instead of wholeheartedly embracing the action side of things.  So while I will agree that the title was confusing at first, I think that it's the least of the concerns raised during/after OpenDev.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Oct 6, 2022, 8:05:52 PM

My opposition to Denuvo isn't ideological, it simply makes your games unplayable on my hardware due to the lag it causes. With the economy being what it is, you should aim for people who do not have supercomputers.


Frankly, I am amazed that a multiplayer-focused game like Endless Dungeon even needs Denuvo when you can make the multiplayer functionality your DRM.

0Send private message
3 years ago
Oct 14, 2022, 11:59:20 AM

Yeah, my computer's performance during the beta period was extremely bad.  And if Denuvo is to blame then that's a real shame.

0Send private message
3 years ago
Oct 26, 2022, 3:20:19 PM

So ummm, its been a month and no news, whats up Cat-o-Nine-Tails, are yall gonna remove Deuvo? Will you ACTUALLY listen to the community and NOT fall into the pit of poor game development as has been the case as of lately? When the Indie Games are making bigger moves and listening and making the changes and larger studios just disregard its playerbase and act like they know what's good for us, don't you think we will just find something better and cheaper (probably) to play? We want results not utter disregard for our opinions. 

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 2:06:17 AM
AlasThor wrote:

Hey everyone !

I am a game designer on TED. I want to address the main points of this thread :


[...]

It's the first time that I post on a public forum as a dev so I hope that won't start a war.

I hope that you will try the game in its future iteration and change your mind on the stuff you dislike about it

Welcome to the party @AlasThor!   No worries about the risk of starting a war (from me at least).  I'll give honest opinions but try to not make it too personal.


AlasThor wrote:
Secondly, the timebased/doorbased game, it is a hot design topic that is central in the game. We had a lot of back and forth on this issue and after a lots of testing, we have come to the conclusion that leaning to a time based formula is better overall. [...]

I'll still disagree with you based on my OpenDev experience and on the points that I have already brought up in both this thread and my feedback thread regarding core design elements of action roguelikes/dungeon crawlers, but I'll be interested in seeing with you come up with.  I will offer one other compromise though: how about giving players an option?  I have floated the idea of a Classic Mode a few times where TED follows the same rules as DotE (no direct control, 4 survivors, no crystal sockets, etc), but maybe another setting could be a toggle in the game's options where you could select time-based waves or door-based waves?  It seems like that would be good middle-ground to arrive at for everyone.


AlasThor wrote:

For the denovo situation, I am personally not a fan of DRM and would have loved to have TED DRM free. But denovo, and moreover all drm systems, are a constraint of the industry. A lot of actors in the industry ask for guaranties and denovo or a similar system is one of them. It is the norm to have anti-thief, anti-copy or safeguarding/limitation on near to all day to day product and games are not an exception. From what I have discussed with some more informed colleagues, we have denovo-like integration or no means to make the game (They didn't say denovo is necessary to make the game, but it is necessary to discuss negotiate and finance it).

For us making the game, the only thing we can do is acknowledge this constraint and try to do our best for it to impact the less our players.

I appreciate the candor here in your comments, and I understand the constraints that can be imposed by Corporate in situations like this.  So I'm definitely not trying to come across as being harsh against Amplitude.  However, the fact remains that DRM is not very effective in combating piracy (even Denuvo admits that), and DRM devs will try to keep themselves in business by telling scary stories of lost potential sales to financial types who don't specialize in the technical side.  But these stories always ignore potential lost sales from players who are simply sick of DRM locking them out of their legitimately-purchased games.  So I appreciate that you appear to be making the best of a DRM requirement that has seemingly been imposed on you, I will still reserve the right to complain about DRM because it only hurts paying customers. :-)  By the way, Sega appears to have partnered with GOG for some DRM-free releases...maybe Amplitude could try to get involved in that Sega/GOG deal as well in hopes to side-step some of this DRM requirement stuff in the future?


Thanks for openly communicating with us about this.  Looking forward to the next OpenDev.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 6:05:37 PM
Sublustris wrote:

So you've learned nothing from feedback.

Im starting to share the same belief, they didnt even talk about Denuvo, the most talked about topic on the Endless Dungeon forum right now and something that nearly the entire community has rejected and stated that they do not want in the game.

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 6:34:09 PM
DragonGaming wrote:
Sublustris wrote:

So you've learned nothing from feedback.

Im starting to share the same belief, they didnt even talk about Denuvo, the most talked about topic on the Endless Dungeon forum right now and something that nearly the entire community has rejected and stated that they do not want in the game.

Has the magic of Amplitude really died?

But then again, could someone explain to me this whole "Denuvo" problem?

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 7:13:46 PM

"Ah yes, we did everything good, there's nothing to be changed. And if something seems not to be good, that is because you were playing opendev and it will make sense after release, nothing to be changed here either"


This already feels as productive as HK opendevs.

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 9:22:27 PM
Imperial_Heron wrote:
DragonGaming wrote:
Sublustris wrote:

So you've learned nothing from feedback.

Im starting to share the same belief, they didnt even talk about Denuvo, the most talked about topic on the Endless Dungeon forum right now and something that nearly the entire community has rejected and stated that they do not want in the game.

Has the magic of Amplitude really died?

But then again, could someone explain to me this whole "Denuvo" problem?

Denuvo has a bad reputation and a history of making games play worse, run worse, and requires people to always be online, meaning you cant play games that have denuvo offline, this means if support ends for a game or the denuvo servers go down, thats it, whatever game you payed for, gone, unplayable. Amplitude tried to implement denuvo into Humankind but removed it after a bad outcry from the community, though their reason for removing it and the fact that they are trying to implement it again implies fan feedback may not have been taken into account. Now their trying to put denuvo into Endless Dungeon and seem to be doubling down on  it despite overwhelming backlash.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 10:40:00 PM

Is anyone able to explain the positive benefits of Denuvo? Why do games even use it? I have heard only negative reviews regarding its effect on performance and many other games I've played have either nixed it or had huge fan outcry about it. Does Denuvo pay the Devs to use it?

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 27, 2022, 10:53:05 PM
GroupOfTrees wrote:

Is anyone able to explain the positive benefits of Denuvo? Why do games even use it? I have heard only negative reviews regarding its effect on performance and many other games I've played have either nixed it or had huge fan outcry about it. Does Denuvo pay the Devs to use it?

the only thing it does is delay piracy by a few months. Thats it, that is literally it to my knowledge, delaying the inevitable. So players who buy the game ares stuck with a worse running version, may not even be able to play their payed game in the future should support or services go down,  while pirates, once denuvo is cracked, (it has and it will be cracked open) are able to get a version that does not have denuvo and thus are running a superior version of the game.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 28, 2022, 1:04:40 AM
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action.

That's a rather blunt response to one of the bigger criticisms from us during OpenDev so I'll offer a blunt rebuttal.  I intend for this criticism to be constructive and hope it is received as such.


To be honest, this decision highlights my concern that your game is currently suffering from a severe identity crisis.  It cannot seem to decide if it's an action game or a strategy game, and the gameplay is probably going to be weakened by this point of indecision.  The fact that you all are doubling down on this timed wave thing as being "important to the pacing" further raises concern that you all have not played enough action-oriented dungeon crawlers and/or analyzed what the core gameplay elements are that go into said dungeon crawlers.  There are lots of ways to control the pacing in an action dungeon crawler that don't involve abruptly interrupting the main gameplay loop and distracting the player with a semi-random enemy spawn.  In fact, I found that opening a door in DotE is a FAR MORE tense experience than the, "Oh great...it's that annoying siren again...all I wanted to do was normal action roguelike stuff like opening some chests, buying some items, and placing some turrets..." experience in Endless Dungeon.  (And smart Endless Dungeon players will just end up camping the spawn points and waiting for a wave before opening a door so they don't get caught off-guard - which means that the waves are effectively being spawned when a door is opened anyway and renders the time-based "pacing control" useless.)


I'll stop there because I don't want to retread the points that I made in my feedback thread, but I gave a few examples in that thread of ways that the action elements can be better integrated with the strategy elements without completely sacrificing both aspects of the gameplay. I also gave examples of some games that you may want to look at for inspiration on the action side of things. I've played quite a few twin-stick shooters and action roguelikes and feel like you're really missing the mark with the action elements when compared to your competition. The strategy elements are mostly fine (with the notable exception of the new generator system), but the action balance is lacking - largely due to the timed waves.


Ultimately, I recognize that you're the devs and it's your game which means that you call the shots, but I hope you'll reconsider this decision since it feels like you're either going to let your strategy gameplay sabotage your action gameplay or vice-versa.

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 28, 2022, 3:31:38 AM
SpikedWallMan wrote:
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action.

That's a rather blunt response to one of the bigger criticisms from us during OpenDev so I'll offer a blunt rebuttal.  I intend for this criticism to be constructive and hope it is received as such.


To be honest, this decision highlights my concern that your game is currently suffering from a severe identity crisis.  It cannot seem to decide if it's an action game or a strategy game, and the gameplay is probably going to be weakened by this point of indecision.  The fact that you all are doubling down on this timed wave thing as being "important to the pacing" further raises concern that you all have not played enough action-oriented dungeon crawlers and/or analyzed what the core gameplay elements are that go into said dungeon crawlers.  There are lots of ways to control the pacing in an action dungeon crawler that don't involve abruptly interrupting the main gameplay loop and distracting the player with a semi-random enemy spawn.  In fact, I found that opening a door in DotE is a FAR MORE tense experience than the, "Oh great...it's that annoying siren again...all I wanted to do was normal action roguelike stuff like opening some chests, buying some items, and placing some turrets..." experience in Endless Dungeon.  (And smart Endless Dungeon players will just end up camping the spawn points and waiting for a wave before opening a door so they don't get caught off-guard - which means that the waves are effectively being spawned when a door is opened anyway and renders the time-based "pacing control" useless.)


I'll stop there because I don't want to retread the points that I made in my feedback thread, but I gave a few examples in that thread of ways that the action elements can be better integrated with the strategy elements without completely sacrificing both aspects of the gameplay. I also gave examples of some games that you may want to look at for inspiration on the action side of things. I've played quite a few twin-stick shooters and action roguelikes and feel like you're really missing the mark with the action elements when compared to your competition. The strategy elements are mostly fine (with the notable exception of the new generator system), but the action balance is lacking - largely due to the timed waves.


Ultimately, I recognize that you're the devs and it's your game which means that you call the shots, but I hope you'll reconsider this decision since it feels like you're either going to let your strategy gameplay sabotage your action gameplay or vice-versa.

Honestly this.

It feels like the criticism towards the timer based waves and door opening feedback was taken as "they just want it like the old game, but we aren't the old game anymore" but as it is it doesn't complement anything. Like you said it creates this need to wait for a wave to pass just to open as many doors as you can in a blitz rather than tactically think about them. The original used to make you feel dread on every door opening! It was thrilling and exciting, and the distinction between tactical setup and tactical commanding / healing / using abilities in combat were two very distinct and fun aspects of the game.

I get it's supposed to be this new direction but it shouldn't come at the cost of the spirit of what made the original so special...

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 28, 2022, 6:02:09 AM
GroupOfTrees wrote:
Is anyone able to explain the positive benefits of Denuvo?

For end user? Literally zero. It's purely for publisher's self-soothing that game will be sold, instead of pirated, which also isn't true.


GroupOfTrees wrote:
Does Denuvo pay the Devs to use it?

:'D


Quite the opposite. Effective use of development budget, isn't it? :D

Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 28, 2022, 12:12:21 PM
Sublustris wrote:
GroupOfTrees wrote:
Is anyone able to explain the positive benefits of Denuvo?

For end user? Literally zero. It's purely for publisher's self-soothing that game will be sold, instead of pirated, which also isn't true.


GroupOfTrees wrote:
Does Denuvo pay the Devs to use it?

:'D


Quite the opposite. Effective use of development budget, isn't it? :D

I always assume that the decision to use Denuvo is the result of boardroom presentations like this where the devs are trying to explain to the execs/shareholders that Denuvo does not really make the line go up:



Updated 3 years ago.
0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 28, 2022, 2:51:23 PM

"Some players were concerned about the pressure created by the timed waves. They felt rushed rather than taking time to think. How do you plan to address that? 

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action. However, the time between waves isn’t determined just by a clock ticking down; the actions you take when exploring the dungeon also affect the time until the next wave arrives. This should keep a good balance between action and time for exploration, but we are still refining this pacing."



One thing I Iiked about DoTE was that my friends and I could discuss choices and walk away from the game if we had to. I guess that's gone out the window in favor of this annoying change.

Also Denuvo is bad, thanks folks.

0Send private message
3 years ago
Sep 29, 2022, 2:26:07 PM

Hey everyone !

I am a game designer on TED. I want to address the main points of this thread :

First of all, we have gathered a ton of feedback from the data collected and specific points you have pointed out (I can't give you an exhaustive list as it is valuable production document not public). We have a lot of improve and improve list in the work to enhance the game that came from your feedbacks and I hope that you will see some changes when you get a build in your hands.


Secondly, the timebased/doorbased game, it is a hot design topic that is central in the game. We had a lot of back and forth on this issue and after a lots of testing, we have come to the conclusion that leaning to a time based formula is better overall. That said, we know it not perfect at all, and not similar to DotE. We found that the change to direct control of TED implies a more direct and time controlled way of playing.

We are iterating to strike the best balance between action and preparation with these constraints in minds. We know that for some of you the pacing of DotE was the key point of the game but we will try to make you appreciate another formula more action oriented.

Please keep in mind that we are currently working on it and the fine-tuning is not there yet.


For the denovo situation, I am personally not a fan of DRM and would have loved to have TED DRM free. But denovo, and moreover all drm systems, are a constraint of the industry. A lot of actors in the industry ask for guaranties and denovo or a similar system is one of them. It is the norm to have anti-thief, anti-copy or safeguarding/limitation on near to all day to day product and games are not an exception. From what I have discussed with some more informed colleagues, we have denovo-like integration or no means to make the game (They didn't say denovo is necessary to make the game, but it is necessary to discuss negotiate and finance it).

For us making the game, the only thing we can do is acknowledge this constraint and try to do our best for it to impact the less our players.



It's the first time that I post on a public forum as a dev so I hope that won't start a war.

I hope that you will try the game in its future iteration and change your mind on the stuff you dislike about it


0Send private message
?

Click here to login

Reply
Comment

Characters : 0
No results
0Send private message