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2 years ago Sep 27,2022, 15:00:29 PM

First Run Debrief Summary

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Recently we sat down with our Creative Director and the Lead Game Designer of ENDLESS™ Dungeon to talk about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we got, and answer some of your burning questions. Of course, not everybody can make it to a live stream, so our little chat is now available as a video on demand to watch at your leisure.

 


If you want a quick idea of what we discussed, here’s a summary of some of the most important questions: 

 

What do you think about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we received? 

We think the First Run went quite well. People were really excited to try the game and gave us a lot of great feedback. Of course, the first time you let players try your game is always a bit scary, because suddenly the game is no longer just your project. This was especially true with ENDLESS™ Dungeon, because while we take inspiration from Dungeon of the ENDLESS™, some core elements like direct control of your heroes and timed waves of enemies are big departures. These changes may feel counter-intuitive at first glance, but when you play the game, it just clicks for us, and it seems many players agree. Nonetheless, the balance of tactics and action is crucial for this game, and we’re still working to hit that sweet spot, so all the discussions about this are great feedback for us. 

 

Some players were concerned about the pressure created by the timed waves. They felt rushed rather than taking time to think. How do you plan to address that? 

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action. However, the time between waves isn’t determined just by a clock ticking down; the actions you take when exploring the dungeon also affect the time until the next wave arrives. This should keep a good balance between action and time for exploration, but we are still refining this pacing. 

 

In the First Run OpenDev, you only had a few different turrets you could build. How do you plan to keep the game tactical? 

Where you place which turrets may be a big part of your strategy in ENDLESS™ Dungeon, but it’s not the only important tactical decision to make. Your important decisions already start with which doors you open: Can you perhaps funnel enemies into a well-prepared defensive position? Can you afford to open a side path looking for rewards, even if it might weaken your defenses? Then you also have to consider your economy.  At first you might always favor industry for the ability to quickly build more turrets, but in the full game the individual runs will be longer than in the OpenDev, so you have to think about the long-term benefits of leveling up your heroes or researching new turrets. That said, we’re also working to improve the gameplay around turrets, especially early in the run. It should be a little easier to unlock new turrets in the future, and you will be able to simply replace existing turrets, so won’t have to hold back building your defenses. 

 

Speaking of doors and defensive positions, some players missed the ability to manage your power like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. What are your plans for dark rooms? 

While dark rooms and power management felt like a core part of the Dungeon of the ENDLESS™ experience, and we take a lot of inspiration from the previous game, they are a feature we weren’t sure we could add to ENDLESS™ Dungeon at first. Shifting your power on the fly just did not mesh well with the direct control and more action-packed core loop of ENDLESS™ Dungeon. It wasn’t until we tried making the decision permanent that things fell into place: You might not frantically redirect power in a tight spot anymore, but you have to plan your route and which rooms you need to power for resources or defense all the more carefully, as you won’t be able to recover your crystal shards once spent. 

However, given the danger to your crystal bot when collecting them, powering a single room did not feel like an appropriate use of a crystal shard. So we will add Dust as a separate resource for powering rooms and found in various containers throughout the dungeon, while crystal shards will still need to be collected by your bot and are used to unlock upgrades. This means we can have more dark rooms, but powering them will still be permanent and Dust is still a limited resource, so you will have to choose carefully. And we may even have some surprises in store... 



This should cover the most common questions, but we discussed several other topics during the stream as well, like balancing and progression or quality of life improvements, so be sure to check it out when you have the time! 

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2 years ago
Oct 3, 2022, 10:37:07 AM
Sublustris wrote:
Well, then moderator operating from behind the curtain caused unssecessary confusion

Just for the record: I restored your original post. Whether or not your statement was to be taken as insulting, I don't think it was worth deleting, as it wasn't actually vulgar, but issuing a warning removes the post by default.


However, to both Sublustris and Neprostoman: Let us please not get into remarks about the war in Ukraine. We know that you are probably both affected by this situation in some way, but this is not the time or place to discuss it.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 3:09:43 PM

Well, then moderator operating from behind the curtain caused unssecessary confusion. Anyway, my main gripe isn't even about DRM, it's about dismissal of timed waves as a problem, and as best solution you came up with. For me personally it completely ruined my pacing, as I felt forced to camp behind locked doors, waiting for waves to trigger before opening next one. Because if in unlucky chance there was going to be yet another spawner behind the door, or trader, and I haven't finished my preparations - I would be punished.


So, how about this suggestion, @AlasThor ?


• If player opens the door, and there's spawner - next timed wave in some grace period of minute or so won't appear from that spawner.

• If there's a trader - add another half a minute to spawn timer, so I could have time to trade something, instead of seeing him immideately butchered.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 3:44:53 PM

For the pacing we have iterated and come up with a solution for the merchant (that I don't know if I am allowed to say).

For the "waiting behind a closed door" we have made some adjustement on that front too and the game have changed sinc the Open Dev. It is something we want to avoid as it is not a pleasant way to play so we use "design lever" to make you not do that (making it suboptimal, givingyou more information, not giving you the need to do that).

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 5:23:55 PM
Sublustris wrote:

So I've just received Profile infraction for "Vulgarity", because I've dared to suggest to developer to simply make good games. Wow.

there are ways to say things, but the " make good games? " I think it is not necessary, you can say idk, that those excuses are not enough in your opinion, then perfect.

Sublustris wrote:

I also want to apology for my harsh choice of words, I have war in my country and rarely in a mood to radiate charm and make good first impressions. This isn't an excuse, just my reasoning. Which often backfires on me, and I'm used to that.

I know and thats why it was only a little warning like hey, maybe those weren´t the perfect words. But i know you are trying to be critic with an aspect which is perfectly normal and i respect that. Sorry if it wasn´t the intention and caused a bit of confusion.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Oct 1, 2022, 8:55:22 AM


AlasThor wrote:

For the performance issue, it is more because we didn't have all the optimization of a final product as it is an Open Dev, denovo has little to do with that.


I meant the progressive frame reduction over time.
The general starting performance wasn't too bad for me tbh!
I would start a run at like 144fps and end it below 60fps.

Progressively losing frames when a game is open like that is normally a memory leak right.
Not just optimisation. Unless that kind of stuff comes under "optimisation" I'm no expert.
And sometimes it only effects specific hardware configs and weird stuff like that idk.

I was just trying to see if that specific performance loss over time was a known issue for you. 

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2 years ago
Oct 1, 2022, 4:41:59 PM

For clarification: it was me who reported your comments as vulgarity, Sublustris. And your excuses are excuses no matter how you sugarcoat them. I don't care about your excuses, a lot of people struggle against a lot of things in life, some have cancer, some face abuse and some are touched by war etc and while all of those are bad and I won't wish them on anyone - using them as a meat shield for vulgarity justification is the most vulgar thing that you can possibly do. Be neutral or restrain yourself from writing things or get reported because I won't fall for your victim complex and will report you unless I am banned for my viewpoint.


Despite all of this, I am also not a fan of Denuvo and agree with you and other posters on it being an overall impediment for the game. But I was partially convinced that there might be some benefit in it from a grander scope of things.

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2 years ago
Oct 1, 2022, 5:55:46 PM

lol. russian is salty. how's draft going?

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Oct 1, 2022, 6:42:59 PM

An expected zero calory response. That usually happens with people when they are exposed and can't justify themselves being arrogant pricks, so the only thing left is to stay on the same track. It takes great courage to fully accept ones failure and work on your mistakes though, so I can't blame you.

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2 years ago
Oct 2, 2022, 4:52:42 AM
Lupercal_27 wrote:


AlasThor wrote:

For the performance issue, it is more because we didn't have all the optimization of a final product as it is an Open Dev, denovo has little to do with that.


I meant the progressive frame reduction over time.
The general starting performance wasn't too bad for me tbh!
I would start a run at like 144fps and end it below 60fps.

Progressively losing frames when a game is open like that is normally a memory leak right.
Not just optimisation. Unless that kind of stuff comes under "optimisation" I'm no expert.
And sometimes it only effects specific hardware configs and weird stuff like that idk.

I was just trying to see if that specific performance loss over time was a known issue for you. 

Given we got a lot of communication recommending to close and re-open the game during the opendev for this reason, I believe they will get around to the memory leak stuff!

I'd assume memory leak issues typically get resolved later in game dev on account of them continuously adding more things onto the game, better to wait and fix it all in one go than to keep addressing memory leakage when code gets shifted around and changed frequently!

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2 years ago
Oct 3, 2022, 8:12:27 AM

Yes, we are fully aware of memory issues and a lot has been done to fix them. Not all of the issues can be fixed right now as we are still working on the game but we are more and more focus on these issues as we need the game to run on other things than high end pc on the release ^^

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2 years ago
Oct 3, 2022, 8:49:10 AM
AlasThor wrote:

Yes, we are fully aware of memory issues and a lot has been done to fix them. Not all of the issues can be fixed right now as we are still working on the game but we are more and more focus on these issues as we need the game to run on other things than high end pc on the release ^^

That's great news! Thanks for the info :)

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 2:45:44 PM

I didn't take your words personnaly and I am not responsible for the removal of your post.


That said, I think you can see that telling "make a good game" or "if you are that insecure?" is not the friendliest way of having a conversation.


If I am not mistaken I thing that endless legende, endless space 1 and 2 and Humankind had a DRM system. But even if not, the choice of having them or not can always change if one of the many actors implicated of making a game change its minds

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2 years ago
Oct 5, 2022, 2:43:38 AM
AlasThor wrote:

I don't want to convey the message that a "big bad corporate man with a necktie" is forcing us to integrate denovo so I will be a little more precise :) :

We are at a state in the industry (I am not only talking of Amplitude or Sega) where for all actors it all make sense to implement those kind of system

- If you are a publisher, consol maker, editor, maket place or a similar roel entity you don't have the time to investigate how devellopers have seccure their game. Putting their game into your ecosystem cost you money so you have to reduce the risk of anything going badly and those kind of system is a form of guaranty. You are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every guaranty you can.

- If you are a game making entity, you have to interact with the entities above and not having those systems is a loss of negociating leverage as the absence of guaranty on your part have to be compentiated. So you put in balance having and not having those system and, same as above, you are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every leverage you can. 


So it makes sense for all parties to include those systems. In an ideal world they shouldn't be necessary.

For the company that choose not to include them, they have their reasons (their risk being low enough, personnal choice...) but as for now they are far from being universal.
If we get back to TED, is denovo worth it? Some people more informed than us said it is.


For the performance issue, it is more because we didn't have all the optimization of a final product as it is an Open Dev, denovo has little to do with that.


For the doorbased choice, I can't say that you will have this option as the game direction is to have a time based system but we have noted that feedback (litterally on my second screen as I am writting) and might choose to have that included if we have the time and ressources.

Firstly, I haven't read the rest of the thread, as I simply cannot get past this post.


What a load of complete and utter horseshit. I've never heard such a scripted corporate facing excuse in my life. For clarity, I work in the game's industry, and none of the company's games I work for has DRM (outside of platform DRM such as Steam-Epic-GoG Galaxy).


If we are talking "industry talk", then it's simple. A publisher makes MOST of its coin in the first month after release. Pirating damages that income flow heavily enough for investors (think publishers or the money-people) to demand DRM. IT IS A KNOWN FACT, yes FACT! that all DRM is cracked around a month after release.


The ONLY "positive" reason to have DRM is to guarantee PROFITS for the investor. Every other reason is a negative against honest paying customers. Bad performance, forced online, dead game once support ends, more resource intensive footprint. There is not one single positive reason for customers.


So the bottom line is, publishers force game studios to include DRM to ensure their own profit lines. The money doesn't even get back to the studio. It ALL goes to the publisher.

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2 years ago
Oct 5, 2022, 3:47:52 AM
Dale_K wrote:

The ONLY "positive" reason to have DRM is to guarantee PROFITS for the investor. Every other reason is a negative against honest paying customers. Bad performance, forced online, dead game once support ends, more resource intensive footprint. There is not one single positive reason for customers.


So the bottom line is, publishers force game studios to include DRM to ensure their own profit lines. The money doesn't even get back to the studio. It ALL goes to the publisher.

I'll agree that the publisher and shareholders could potentially benefit from DRM, but I am not convinced that they actually benefit from DRM because nobody has been able to prove that pirated copy = lost sale. So my opinion is that the only real beneficiary of DRM is the DRM dev who scammed people into buying their "anti-piracy" snake oil in the first place.

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2 years ago
Oct 5, 2022, 5:13:19 AM

Everyone knows it's the publishers forcing the Devs to include DRM.
But the Devs can't admit that for obvious reasons. Not their fault.

If they even hint at it the get emailed a "corporate speak" statement from the publishers. (see above)
A statement they are forced to post via their personal account if they want to keep their job. (see above)

So if you really want to complain about DRM, start sending emails to SEGA about it.
Complaining to Aplitude DEVs about it is a waste of time.
Because they most likely already agree with you about DRM.

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2 years ago
Oct 5, 2022, 1:51:12 PM

I will talk about that subject one last time :

-I am not scripted or forced to say anything, what I said came from my own experience and discussion in the industry

- "DRM is there to make profits for investors", yeah it is (same story for any capitalist company) and ( kinda repeat from before : investors will invest in the highest profit/risk,

game making actors as Amplitude need to be invested in so they need all bargaining chip they can have to strike the best deal. And Denovo is one of these chip, useful to get more confidence for investors.

It is not for the players that we implement those system but for staying competitive in the industry.

(If you ask me, I find that run for competitiveness a shame, but Amplitude manages to pay its employees by being competitive, as do most of companies in our economy.

There is another debate of whether or not Denuvo makes the game more competitive in the eyes of everyone in the process of making and buying the games. I have my opinion on it (see post above), but some people more knowledgeable than us in this area said "yes" for the time.)

- If you want to write emails, you can do so but please keep in mind that you have only your side of the subject and your voice will be more heard if you use a respectfull and calm tone

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