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2 years ago Sep 27,2022, 15:00:29 PM

First Run Debrief Summary

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Recently we sat down with our Creative Director and the Lead Game Designer of ENDLESS™ Dungeon to talk about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we got, and answer some of your burning questions. Of course, not everybody can make it to a live stream, so our little chat is now available as a video on demand to watch at your leisure.

 


If you want a quick idea of what we discussed, here’s a summary of some of the most important questions: 

 

What do you think about the First Run OpenDev and the feedback we received? 

We think the First Run went quite well. People were really excited to try the game and gave us a lot of great feedback. Of course, the first time you let players try your game is always a bit scary, because suddenly the game is no longer just your project. This was especially true with ENDLESS™ Dungeon, because while we take inspiration from Dungeon of the ENDLESS™, some core elements like direct control of your heroes and timed waves of enemies are big departures. These changes may feel counter-intuitive at first glance, but when you play the game, it just clicks for us, and it seems many players agree. Nonetheless, the balance of tactics and action is crucial for this game, and we’re still working to hit that sweet spot, so all the discussions about this are great feedback for us. 

 

Some players were concerned about the pressure created by the timed waves. They felt rushed rather than taking time to think. How do you plan to address that? 

To be honest, we don’t plan to go back to the purely door-based waves like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. The timed waves are important for the pacing of ENDLESS™ Dungeon, as they create tension and a rhythm between quiet planning and frantic action. However, the time between waves isn’t determined just by a clock ticking down; the actions you take when exploring the dungeon also affect the time until the next wave arrives. This should keep a good balance between action and time for exploration, but we are still refining this pacing. 

 

In the First Run OpenDev, you only had a few different turrets you could build. How do you plan to keep the game tactical? 

Where you place which turrets may be a big part of your strategy in ENDLESS™ Dungeon, but it’s not the only important tactical decision to make. Your important decisions already start with which doors you open: Can you perhaps funnel enemies into a well-prepared defensive position? Can you afford to open a side path looking for rewards, even if it might weaken your defenses? Then you also have to consider your economy.  At first you might always favor industry for the ability to quickly build more turrets, but in the full game the individual runs will be longer than in the OpenDev, so you have to think about the long-term benefits of leveling up your heroes or researching new turrets. That said, we’re also working to improve the gameplay around turrets, especially early in the run. It should be a little easier to unlock new turrets in the future, and you will be able to simply replace existing turrets, so won’t have to hold back building your defenses. 

 

Speaking of doors and defensive positions, some players missed the ability to manage your power like in Dungeon of the ENDLESS™. What are your plans for dark rooms? 

While dark rooms and power management felt like a core part of the Dungeon of the ENDLESS™ experience, and we take a lot of inspiration from the previous game, they are a feature we weren’t sure we could add to ENDLESS™ Dungeon at first. Shifting your power on the fly just did not mesh well with the direct control and more action-packed core loop of ENDLESS™ Dungeon. It wasn’t until we tried making the decision permanent that things fell into place: You might not frantically redirect power in a tight spot anymore, but you have to plan your route and which rooms you need to power for resources or defense all the more carefully, as you won’t be able to recover your crystal shards once spent. 

However, given the danger to your crystal bot when collecting them, powering a single room did not feel like an appropriate use of a crystal shard. So we will add Dust as a separate resource for powering rooms and found in various containers throughout the dungeon, while crystal shards will still need to be collected by your bot and are used to unlock upgrades. This means we can have more dark rooms, but powering them will still be permanent and Dust is still a limited resource, so you will have to choose carefully. And we may even have some surprises in store... 



This should cover the most common questions, but we discussed several other topics during the stream as well, like balancing and progression or quality of life improvements, so be sure to check it out when you have the time! 

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2 years ago
Sep 29, 2022, 7:49:38 PM
AlasThor wrote:


It's the first time that I post on a public forum as a dev so I hope that won't start a war.

I hope that you will try the game in its future iteration and change your mind on the stuff you dislike about it


I think I speak for everyone when I say that we appreciate the communication, it's kinda surprising you're even allowed to talk about the circumstances behind needing to integrate Denuvo due to higher up decisions.

It's just unfortunate that there is a large amount of players who are not going to end up purchasing the game for the sake of protecting the game for a couple more weeks after launch. One of my close friends who I wanted to enter the space station with immediately decided that they no longer felt comfortable with it, as they've had a lot of serious issues with false flags with Easy Anti Cheat and similarly incredibly invasive DRM systems. We appreciate the hard work the dev team is putting into this, but whoever has the power to speak with the ones who made this decision needs to keep trying: on behalf of everyone who has legitimate concerns over it's implementation, especially as Denuvo has historically never benefit any release, only harmed the consumers and potential sales of games packed with it.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 4:33:17 AM

Gameplay wise I'm excited to see the finished version of this new direction they're taking.

I'm worried about the performance though.
There was no mention of the performance issues, unless I missed that part?

Are the framerate drops getting looked into?
Was it a memory leak in the OpenDev? Or an issue with the DRM?

I know it's easy to just assume it will get fixed for release and it was just an OpenDev bug.
But I've seen plenty of AAA's and indie games alike ship with memory leaks (BL1, BO4). So it worries me a bit.
So I hope it's something they are going to address. 

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 9:27:10 AM

I don't want to convey the message that a "big bad corporate man with a necktie" is forcing us to integrate denovo so I will be a little more precise :) :

We are at a state in the industry (I am not only talking of Amplitude or Sega) where for all actors it all make sense to implement those kind of system

- If you are a publisher, consol maker, editor, maket place or a similar roel entity you don't have the time to investigate how devellopers have seccure their game. Putting their game into your ecosystem cost you money so you have to reduce the risk of anything going badly and those kind of system is a form of guaranty. You are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every guaranty you can.

- If you are a game making entity, you have to interact with the entities above and not having those systems is a loss of negociating leverage as the absence of guaranty on your part have to be compentiated. So you put in balance having and not having those system and, same as above, you are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every leverage you can. 


So it makes sense for all parties to include those systems. In an ideal world they shouldn't be necessary.

For the company that choose not to include them, they have their reasons (their risk being low enough, personnal choice...) but as for now they are far from being universal.
If we get back to TED, is denovo worth it? Some people more informed than us said it is.


For the performance issue, it is more because we didn't have all the optimization of a final product as it is an Open Dev, denovo has little to do with that.


For the doorbased choice, I can't say that you will have this option as the game direction is to have a time based system but we have noted that feedback (litterally on my second screen as I am writting) and might choose to have that included if we have the time and ressources.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 10:16:41 AM

A random thought. So, people, that are not willing to buy a game and going to pirate it, won't buy it because of "Oh no, they got Denuvo. It is imposible to pirate the game". They will just wait a little longer. So, the Devs will not get more sales. On the other hand, there are people, who are strongly against Denuvo and won't buy(but was gonna) the game just for that reason. So, the Devs will get less sales.

I understand that situation is more complicated, but, as i said, random thought.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 11:19:11 AM
AlasThor wrote:
all actors it all make sense to implement those kind of system

Tell that to CDProjekt and everyone using GoG platform.


AlasThor wrote:
You are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every guaranty you can.
AlasThor wrote:

So you put in balance having and not having those system and, same as above, you are in a risky busisness (you invested a lot) and to survive you have to take every leverage you can. 

Have you tried to simply make good games? Because that sounds as an excuse to get away with shitty products.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 12:19:44 PM
Sublustris wrote:
AlasThor wrote:
all actors it all make sense to implement those kind of system

Tell that to CDProjekt and everyone using GoG platform.

I agree.  I mean, Witcher 3 alone has sold more than 40 Million copies across PC and consoles (mostly PC is seems), and it has been DRM-free since 2015.  Apparently 2021 was a great year for digital Witcher 3 sales too despite the fact it's an "old" AAA game that has no DRM so it's not like everyone is going out and pirating Witcher 3 because it doesn't have Denuvo or some other DRM "protecting" it.  Cyberpunk seems to be doing well sales-wise too.  And then there are lots of other popular AAA and indie games that "somehow" survive as DRM-free games on GOG.  So by GOG's example alone, I don't see where DRM makes sense or is a prerequisite to successfully selling a game to the masses.


(However, for the record and just so I am clear, I am not agreeing with your "just make good games" statement.  I'm trying to discuss DRM in general without pointing too many fingers.)


AlasThor wrote:

For the doorbased choice, I can't say that you will have this option as the game direction is to have a time based system but we have noted that feedback (litterally on my second screen as I am writting) and might choose to have that included if we have the time and ressources.

Thanks for listening to my feedback here.  I think that offering a choice would put a lot of our minds at ease if you all find the time/resources to implement it.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 12:30:38 PM

As I have said "For the company that choose not to include them, they have their reasons (their risk being low enough, personnal choice...) but as for now they are far from being universal." CDprojekt is in a situation where they are the devellopers, publisher and market owner and they are specialized in DRM-free content so their risk evaluation is far from commun. For other games that are on GoG, they all have their reasons as well, they choose to say that it is worth it not to have that kind of system. But keep in mind that, espacially for big production, that is rare.


And for the second part just look for the budget of any games, you will see that it is huge (even for single dev games) so it is risky by nature.


"Have you tried to simply make good games?"

Please refrain from insulting people making games just on the basis that it is an industry with some process and constraints. Every one I know at Amplitude wants to have the best game the company can make without collapsing.


I am only giving you a perceptive of a person that is in the industry on that matter.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 1:51:23 PM

So I've just received Profile infraction for "Vulgarity", because I've dared to suggest to developer to simply make good games. Wow.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 1:54:20 PM
AlasThor wrote:
For other games that are on GoG, they all have their reasons as well, they choose to say that it is worth it not to have that kind of system. But keep in mind that, espacially for big production, that is rare.

You've dismissed this one, another example for you: Larian Studiods

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 2:13:48 PM

You seriously took that as an insult? Like, from me, that if I'm telling Amplitude are not making good games?


I don't want to insult you for real, but why are you trying to retort in online discussion if you are that insecure? What I was saying, absence of DRM didn't prevent Amplitude to make good games, why all of a sudden things changed? Just focus on what you were doing.

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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 2:24:12 PM

I also want to apology for my harsh choice of words, I have war in my country and rarely in a mood to radiate charm and make good first impressions. This isn't an excuse, just my reasoning. Which often backfires on me, and I'm used to that.

Updated 2 years ago.
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2 years ago
Sep 30, 2022, 2:30:54 PM

I have never said that none of big studio has no DRM, I know Larian Studios post their game on GoG but my point remains the same : It is rare and a choice that is complacated to make. There is a reason that those system exist, I have given you the one of the "high level" reasons of why.
Just look at the global picture of the non-small indie industry, a large majority of actors chooses to have these systems for valid reasons.


I, as a player, dislike DRM and would love to not have those constraint and I have asked if we can afford to remove them but I can tell you from a person in a game studio, not having DRM is a risk/investement that is not easly solvable and I can't reasonnably blame any any actors of the industry that use them.

I can understand that my answer is not satifying but I don't know what I can add to this subject

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