hashinshin wrote:
Okay, and I said tier 1-3 glassteel all need to be nerfed.



It's not hard to get glassteel/titanium, it's less industry to build it, it's at most 3 researches for the entire set, and the weapons are just BLATANTLY OP, especially when you compare the differences between other set peices. If they maintain their current power my group will have to hard ban building speciality weapons simply because of how busted they are. Hell, even the palladium weapons have something like 57 damage or some insanity.



The balance of the game rewards sudden surprise attacks that wipe out entire empires. Speciality weapons as they are are a sure shot 1 fire way to end the game.

There are two problems that you're identifying here:



1. The power disparity between the various specialty weapons.

2. How easily/randomly tier 3 specialty weapons can be achieved.



Both are problems in my mind.



For (1): The power disparity is quite vast. T3 palladium weapon is (113 ATK) compared to T3 dust weapon (21 ATK) and that's just comparing ATK. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be more powerful than T3 dust. Specifically though I think that the dust set needs to ramp up a bit more. T3 dust has barely any increases in stats through the tiers compared to the specialty weapons which have leaps. I think getting the baseline sets buffed somewhat so that there's a greater power curve would lessen the impact of specialty weapons. On the flip side you could nerf the specialty sets, but I personally think that it's just that the baseline sets are way too weak and barely increase in stats per tier. Reaching an era ahead of another faction should convey some moderate bonus.



For (2): This is the real problem of the "surprise" attack and getting good equipment too early in the game. The fact that I can goto a ruins or complete my main quest and receive the T3 glasssteel/titanium for a simple task is blatantly broken. It is pure luck of the draw in terms of who gets it. First person there wins. I had a game last night where my gf got nothing and I had T3 for all specialty sets (glasssteel/titanium @ ERA 2, adamantium/palladium @ ERA 3, mith/hyp @ ERA 5). My armies simply marched across the map. She had no T3 (received T2 mith/hyp by the end). This needs to change. Everyone should have access to these techs. It should either be added to the research tree in appropriate locations so that access to the T2/T3 gear is staged, or the quest that gives it should be determinate (everyone should have access) and more difficult than build a district/cc level 2. Perhaps the quest could be tied to the research of the prior tier (eg. After you research T1 titanium/glass, you receive a quest to unlock the ability to research T2)

Propbuddha wrote:
@hashinshin



I'm missing the thinking on why you think a default technology (Iron or Dust weapons), that requires no Strategic resources and no Research/questing should be as good as one that does.



What's the point of researching/questing for tech and building extractors/buying Strategics if the default stuff is just as/nearly as good?



I do believe that items need some balancing. However, the idea that weapons that are handed to you should be able to compete with ones that you have to earn seems wrong.

Then they become required and the game revolves around bumrushing them and killing everyone who doesn't have them ASAP. Which is what is happening right now. You RIGHT NOW can see the effects of research weapons being blatantly more powerful and you still insist this is a good idea? I havn't gotten to age 4 in my friends multiplayer games in some time because of things like this.

hashinshin wrote:
Then they become required and the game revolves around bumrushing them and killing everyone who doesn't have them ASAP. Which is what is happening right now. You RIGHT NOW can see the effects of research weapons being blatantly more powerful and you still insist this is a good idea? I havn't gotten to age 4 in my friends multiplayer games in some time because of things like this.

Your acting as if you don't have other options. You always have the option to research (100% guaranteed) T2 Glassteel/Titanium weapons that are much better than T3 Iron...



Longspear

	Tier 2 Glassteel	Tier 3 Glassteel
Attack	18	24
Defense	6	8
Initiative	27	40
Damage	32	40

Also consider that tier 3 Glassteel weapons cost double the Glassteel to make that tier 2 does (8 vs 4).



Don't rely on Iron and Dust equipment to get you through the game.

I would like to see all stats of all weapons somewhere, so we can discuss balance. Pls someone make it and post link here. I would LOVE to see that table (with lot of other things too). It can be great addition to wiki page.

Okay, and I said tier 1-3 glassteel all need to be nerfed.



It's not hard to get glassteel/titanium, it's less industry to build it, it's at most 3 researches for the entire set, and the weapons are just BLATANTLY OP, especially when you compare the differences between other set peices. If they maintain their current power my group will have to hard ban building speciality weapons simply because of how busted they are. Hell, even the palladium weapons have something like 57 damage or some insanity.



The balance of the game rewards sudden surprise attacks that wipe out entire empires. Speciality weapons as they are are a sure shot 1 fire way to end the game.

myrec wrote:
I would like to see all stats of all weapons somewhere, so we can discuss balance. Pls someone make it and post link here. I would LOVE to see that table (with lot of other things too). It can be great addition to wiki page.

Unfortunately compiling this is a big PITA as you ave to pull data from a bunch of different files in /SteamApps/common/Endless%20Legend/Public/Simulation . Base stats, Capacities, Strategic Resource bonus and pricing are all kept in different places.



Unless there's a file size they were trying to stay below, I'm not sure why Amplitude tortured themselves with this data design. I suspect the difficulty in editing these is why we sometimes see weird errors and omissions.

hashinshin wrote:
Okay, and I said tier 1-3 glassteel all need to be nerfed.



It's not hard to get glassteel/titanium, it's less industry to build it, it's at most 3 researches for the entire set, and the weapons are just BLATANTLY OP, especially when you compare the differences between other set peices. If they maintain their current power my group will have to hard ban building speciality weapons simply because of how busted they are. Hell, even the palladium weapons have something like 57 damage or some insanity.



The balance of the game rewards sudden surprise attacks that wipe out entire empires. Speciality weapons as they are are a sure shot 1 fire way to end the game.

Hold on a sec. Now you're saying All Glassteel weapons are "BLATANTLY OP". Compared to what? Iron?



What do you expect? A player invests research in weapons and equipment and harvesting materials their army shouldn't get better? How do you expect this to work?



If the materials are so easy to harvest, why aren't you harvesting them?

Propbuddha wrote:
Hold on a sec. Now you're saying All Glassteel weapons are "BLATANTLY OP". Compared to what? Iron?



What do you expect? A player invests research in weapons and equipment and harvesting materials their army shouldn't get better? How do you expect this to work?



If the materials are so easy to harvest, why aren't you harvesting them?

Glasssteel is OP compared to same tier TITANIUM. That's what's wrong. Glasssteel have some stats of Hyperium(era 5).

Keilun wrote:
I find all of the secret alloy/armor techs to be super strong, not just titanium and glassteel. I think it would be better if it just wasn't tied to RNG quest luck. It'd be better to formally place them in the research tree with prerequisites of the prior tiers + maybe an increased research cost. That way the decision on how far down the tier and which resource types to research is a more strategic decision. Right now, it's just plain luck of the draw.

Maybe simply add the need, once the tech is unlocked by exploration quest, to research the tech. This way the exploration would only give access to the tech, and the player would have to research it then, at heavy cost of research point (to balance the fact that's a powerfull tech).



What do you think guys?

hashinshin wrote:
Okay I don't know why I have to say this again but I will:



If ANY technology gives you more than double the damage of your opponent's weapons you will pretty much automatically win the game. It is not okay to have such a ludicrous advantage, ever. I don't know why this is even something we're still talking about. Even tier 4 dust weapons will have 12 damage, and you're gonna have 40 damage in tier 2? That's absurd.

Hmm.. no, I think you are a little wrong, not much, but a little.



You are right about overall balance to keep an interest in every kind of equipment, but overall balance does not mean no flavour and exotic power. This is exactly what is T3 glassteel/titanium weapon/armor : powerfull and exotic equipment. Morever they allow some extra longevity to glassteel/titanium gear, which is great.



That being said, and considering the 'luck' factor at the moment, I agree that their unlock should be maybe a little harder, or need more player investment at least, to not break the overall balance and the interest of other gear techs.

EzekielMoerdyk wrote:
So how about, in addition to a slight nerf, the cost of these weapons are increased significantly. That way, when you get a tech earlier, you can save up and buy perhaps one, at the expense of your strategic resources pool. It will give you the feel-good benefit of tech but at a almost unpayable cost.



It is similar to situations where you have a unique item requiring hyperium in era1. You can spend a hell of a lot of dust trading for it, or you rush the appropriate era.... Good choice

Yeah I was thinking to something like this.



+1

Kruos wrote:
Maybe simply add the need, once the tech is unlocked by exploration quest, to research the tech. This way the exploration would only give access to the tech, and the player would have to research it then, at heavy cost of research point (to balance the fact that's a powerfull tech).



What do you think guys?

That sounds great, but I don't agree on "heavy cost" cause what era would you make them ? 2 or 3 or 4 ? cause era mean research cost. If they stay era 2 they will be as hard to reach as tier 2 and that could be ok.



But maybe it would ok if they are era 3 tech. could only be gain in era 2+ quests (so no era 1 quest first ruins epic weapons) and made them as powerful as tier1 era3 strategic resources. So that would only make it easier to stay competitive with old resources in era 3, not give you endgame weapons.

hashinshin wrote:
Okay, and I said tier 1-3 glassteel all need to be nerfed.



It's not hard to get glassteel/titanium, it's less industry to build it, it's at most 3 researches for the entire set, and the weapons are just BLATANTLY OP, especially when you compare the differences between other set peices. If they maintain their current power my group will have to hard ban building speciality weapons simply because of how busted they are. Hell, even the palladium weapons have something like 57 damage or some insanity.



The balance of the game rewards sudden surprise attacks that wipe out entire empires. Speciality weapons as they are are a sure shot 1 fire way to end the game.

myrec wrote:
Glasssteel is OP compared to same tier TITANIUM. That's what's wrong. Glasssteel have some stats of Hyperium(era 5).

I suggest you presents some example with stats comparison to support your point. At the moment it looks quite overtated honestly.

Honestly T3 specialty weapons should all have rough parity. Same for armour. They all add to different stats, so there's no need for them to NOT be similar power each.

So how about, in addition to a slight nerf, the cost of these weapons are increased significantly. That way, when you get a tech earlier, you can save up and buy perhaps one, at the expense of your strategic resources pool. It will give you the feel-good benefit of tech but at a almost unpayable cost.



It is similar to situations where you have a unique item requiring hyperium in era1. You can spend a hell of a lot of dust trading for it, or you rush the appropriate era.... Good choice

Iron and Dust equipment are freebie handouts that require no research/questing or special materials to make - They are not supposed to be as good as the research/Strategic material weapons of the same Era. Please stop comparing them as if they are. Why would anyone invest in the Strategic weapons if the freebies are just as/nearly as good?



Did you see the comparison of T2 and T3 equipment above for Glassteel? T3 is ~25% better and costs double the Glassteel, hardly game-breaking...



EDIT - BTW - I took a look at the quest droplists and (if I'm reading these correctly) the only way you can get T3 Glassteel/Titanium is through the Wild Walkers faction quest (random chance, in Era 2+) and Ardent Mages faction quest (Chapter 4, step 1 guaranteed).

Propbuddha wrote:
Iron and Dust equipment are freebie handouts that require no research/questing or special materials to make - They are not supposed to be as good as the research/Strategic material weapons of the same Era. Please stop comparing them as if they are. Why would anyone invest in the Strategic weapons if the freebies are just as/nearly as good?



Did you see the comparison of T2 and T3 equipment above for Glassteel? T3 is ~25% better and costs double the Glassteel, hardly game-breaking...



EDIT - BTW - I took a look at the quest drop lists and T3 Glassteel/Titanium only appearing in Era 2 and only for the Wild Walkers and Ardent Mages.

Totally agreed.



BTW, are you sure about the T3 quest drop list, I am pretty sure that the tech can be unlock during the Broken Lord quest also.

I get both T3 Ti/Gs armor and weapon as random quest from ruins or parley with minors in one game before turn 50. It was easy after that.

Kruos wrote:
BTW, are you sure about the T3 quest drop list, I am pretty sure that the tech can be unlock during the Broken Lord quest also.

OK, I looked at the rewards and it appears that many other factions fallback to the Wild Walkers list. You still can only get it in Era 2+ through.

Propbuddha wrote:
Iron and Dust equipment are freebie handouts that require no research/questing or special materials to make - They are not supposed to be as good as the research/Strategic material weapons of the same Era. Please stop comparing them as if they are. Why would anyone invest in the Strategic weapons if the freebies are just as/nearly as good?

I don't think anyone is saying that they should be nearly as good. They're just saying that the difference shouldn't be as large as it is today (in some cases more than 5x as strong).



I'm still of the opinion that the real problem is in how the T3 techs are currently handed out (eg. random quest reward). I think that if everyone had fair access to it, then the power disparity is less of an issue since you *chose* to ignore it and everyone has a fair chance to reach the same equipment level. The way the T3 gear is currently handed out is just a game of random quest luck which can completely throw a game.