Hero diversity - Endless Legend

Hero diversity

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ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

I make micro mods.

ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

10 years ago

Sep 22, 2015, 3:37:10 AM

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
If you have any specific skills of the Flying skill tree in mind, I'd love to hear your opinion. Since I'll be working on heroes for my mod project anyway, I might as well do some rebalancing along the way.

I suspect a lot of the issue is in contextual strength. All flying units are melee, so they should have a weakness there, but since they can all attack up cliffs and fly over them, and can move over forests without issue that problem is mitigated heavily. Furthermore, the only weapon in the game with Flying Slayer is the longbow. And a good portion of the good flying units (looking at you, demons) have axes which make them good at killing their own counter units. A army that is composed of a single unit type should be reasonably easy to counter, but as the game stands it's hard to do.

If someone made an army of only ranged units, a cavalry heavy army with some flyers should beat it. If someone had only cavalry, then infantry guarding a few archers should win cost-for-cost.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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9 years ago

Oct 6, 2016, 7:31:54 PM

Capt.TeddyBear wrote:
Hi Larco,

Sorry to say this but this is what is wrong with the gaming industry today. Stuff that should be core to the game being sold as an add-on.

What about all the people who do not have a spare 10€ missing out on what should be included in the base game, even if it is now extra to what was in the original base game.

There are some brilliant game mechanincs in this game, but there are also some very bad deficiencies which should be addressed without charge. I hope that Game2Gether does not become another one of those companies that does not fix the base mechanincs and/or makes someone pay to have it fixed.

hello Capt.TeddyBear

I understand what you try to point out but Amplitude studios has on multiple occasions said that they don't have the time or the funds to do additional skins for each faction.

And maybe I am wrong regarding the fact that a payed DLC for addional heroes would be worth it but we will see.

also my original quote regarding the possiblity of a payed DLC was before Amplitude Studios joined the SEGA "family" currently they might have the funds for more heroes without it being payed, but I don't know to which extend they are involved with each other.

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Capt.TeddyBear

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Capt.TeddyBear

Newcomer

9 years ago

Oct 1, 2016, 9:17:47 PM

Lorco wrote:
Its been a while since I posted this thread but as a question to anybody reading this would anybody be interested in getting more hero diversity through DLC?
don't really know how much this would be but maybe one of the devs could make a vague estimate if they could.

I would be buy such a DLC if its around the price of 10€.
anybody else interested?

Hi Larco,

Sorry to say this but this is what is wrong with the gaming industry today. Stuff that should be core to the game being sold as an add-on.

What about all the people who do not have a spare 10€ missing out on what should be included in the base game, even if it is now extra to what was in the original base game.

There are some brilliant game mechanincs in this game, but there are also some very bad deficiencies which should be addressed without charge. I hope that Game2Gether does not become another one of those companies that does not fix the base mechanincs and/or makes someone pay to have it fixed.

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Capt.TeddyBear

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Capt.TeddyBear

Newcomer

9 years ago

Oct 1, 2016, 10:34:56 AM

Hi all,

In my view the hero system as it is now is illogical and suffers because you can just get 'anyone' from any race/species. Nah, not good.

There should be tensions between races/species. Everyone should not love everyone. There should be certain races/species that will never see eye to eye and as such you cannot obtain a hero of that race/species.

I would actually prefer that I can only have heroes of my own race/species as 'heroes' are historically (real life) only from that empire or a very close ally. A vaulter having a Necrophage hero goes against all common sense.

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Buzzkillington1990

United Empire

Why eat now what could one day grow into a feast?

Buzzkillington1990

United Empire

9 years ago

Aug 27, 2016, 6:21:52 PM

Lorco wrote:
Its been a while since I posted this thread but as a question to anybody reading this would anybody be interested in getting more hero diversity through DLC?
don't really know how much this would be but maybe one of the devs could make a vague estimate if they could.

I would be buy such a DLC if its around the price of 10€.
anybody else interested?

I've been asking for this since before the Forgotten were released. It just feels a little silly that all Vaulter Heroes, for example, are Ranged. So I'm all in favor of this as well.

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VIPicarus86

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VIPicarus86

VIP

9 years ago

Aug 12, 2016, 7:56:12 AM

Lorco wrote:
Its been a while since I posted this thread but as a question to anybody reading this would anybody be interested in getting more hero diversity through DLC?
don't really know how much this would be but maybe one of the devs could make a vague estimate if they could.

I would be buy such a DLC if its around the price of 10€.
anybody else interested?

Count me in.

More content is always welcome for EL ^^

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Lorco

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Lorco

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9 years ago

Aug 11, 2016, 4:06:23 PM

Its been a while since I posted this thread but as a question to anybody reading this would anybody be interested in getting more hero diversity through DLC?

don't really know how much this would be but maybe one of the devs could make a vague estimate if they could.

I would be buy such a DLC if its around the price of 10€.

anybody else interested?

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Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

Winter is coming.

Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

10 years ago

Sep 27, 2015, 9:28:24 PM

Nasarog wrote:
All I've been asking for is a way to change their names. Quest related heroes have their names locked, but non-quest heroes should either have a name randomization built in, or we should be able to change them.

I'm tired of the clones.

I remember they said they would do something about it after the game was released, during the alpha.

Seems they forgot about it... Like so many other things

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VIPNasarog

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VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

10 years ago

Sep 27, 2015, 3:13:45 PM

All I've been asking for is a way to change their names. Quest related heroes have their names locked, but non-quest heroes should either have a name randomization built in, or we should be able to change them.

I'm tired of the clones.

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Trynstark

Path Finder

Biotic Squad.

Trynstark

Path Finder

10 years ago

Sep 26, 2015, 8:42:04 PM

I read every post on this thread and yeah more diversity = more fun

smiley: biggrin

but I have a request, it would be awesome if the diversity isn't just change the class of the champ I want choose between a male hero and a female, I know , It's ridiculous but my pref faction is Forgotten and love everything about them, the design can be awesome on a male hero, the female is already perfect

smiley: biggrin

thanks for the awesome game i'm still learning it but I already love it.

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DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

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DEVwilbefast

Lost Dev

10 years ago

Sep 25, 2015, 9:37:36 AM

Lorco wrote:
to start to the developers I really like the hero system and the heroes available right now.

but is it just me or is there a lack in diversity for each "race to hero" selection.

With this I mostly mean that I would expect maybe also roving clans hero who are "cavalry" and not only "ranged".

only 2 different classes for each race would be enough I think but other wise it seems a bit a waste of making a skill tree for each race if there isn't some combination possibilities.

are there plans to introduce this kind of variation later on in a future update?

I agree this would be nice

The limiting factor is the cost to produce the assets. We have 9 factions now, so that means 9 new heroes or somebody is going to feel left-out. Even assuming we use the same mesh for the variations we'd need animations for the new weapon types. It adds up pretty quickly. We made the decision early-on to have only one hero type per faction but let you hire any other faction's heroes. In keeping with this philosophy we'd rather add new unique heroes to the overall roster rather than filling out each faction's base heroes. Hence the Sister Of Mercy hero we're adding

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 22, 2015, 3:53:35 PM

Jojo_Fr wrote:
- It's not hard to create smart skills. For exemple, we could image a skill which open the power to command to a unit to don't move when it's his turn, and wait for the ennemy (usefull for claws fight back, for exemple). Or a skill which permit, three times per combat, to switch unit position whatever their initiative (the unit from front, take the place of an unit behind it, like in roman legions), opening by that the possibilty to have a front ligne which you could refresh with fresh troops from behind.

it is possible to have a unit not move it's the hold position mode on the left side of the screen when you select the unit you have an option between offensive defensive and the hold position. (just to avoid additional comments on this; yes, you can also choose this before the battle but this is an option for during battle I am not confusing anything)

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Jojo_Fr

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Jojo_Fr

Pro

10 years ago

Sep 22, 2015, 1:12:09 PM

- Off course, I am for more heros diversity. More diversity = more decision making, more gameplay intelligence, more replayability, more fun and more Endless Legend selling in long term I think.

lol

- It's not hard to create smart skills. For exemple, we could image a skill which open the power to command to a unit to don't move when it's his turn, and wait for the ennemy (usefull for claws fight back, for exemple). Or a skill which permit, three times per combat, to switch unit position whatever their initiative (the unit from front, take the place of an unit behind it, like in roman legions), opening by that the possibilty to have a front ligne which you could refresh with fresh troops from behind.

- The battlefield possibilty is not enough used and could be largely more interesting, for a tiny programmation cost I think (at contrary, creating new features, new graphism are great but are costly in ressources).

- About the flying hero, one flying hero is enough. I am for suppress the speed boost too, because the speed in EL is already a broken feature, which should be nerfed (as proposed by Natev), and controled by players (with zone of control and zone of speed reduction, gave by towers, for exemple, to avoid the cavalery/flyers city sniping).

- The market place of hero is too simplist and it's a waste of time to all examine. I think it should be more automationned (I just want a notification when new hero are hero) because now it's not fun to use.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 4:32:33 PM

to start to the developers I really like the hero system and the heroes available right now.

but is it just me or is there a lack in diversity for each "race to hero" selection.

With this I mostly mean that I would expect maybe also roving clans hero who are "cavalry" and not only "ranged".

only 2 different classes for each race would be enough I think but other wise it seems a bit a waste of making a skill tree for each race if there isn't some combination possibilities.

are there plans to introduce this kind of variation later on in a future update?

many thanks because of developing endless legend.

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natev

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natev

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 9:56:47 PM

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
If you have any specific skills of the Flying skill tree in mind, I'd love to hear your opinion. Since I'll be working on heroes for my mod project anyway, I might as well do some rebalancing along the way.

If my opinion is of any use, I snatch up Tarosh whenever I can and level him for +2/+4 flying unit movement ASAP. I don't find the rest of the tree unbalancing, but +4 strategic movement, on units that are already 6 MP fliers (as a rule, always Demons or Haunts) means that I explore the entire map in a matter of turns and can completely control the map. Reinforce one city? No problem, I'll just take this other city that's 14 tiles away (with the equally powerful T3 expansion empire plan).

This high speed, in fact, is part of what allows Tarosh to level so quickly through ruins and parleys.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 5:37:19 PM

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
Again, that is not a problem inherent with the basic concept of a flying hero, it is a problem with balancing. Make some of those flying hero skills more reasonable, and perhaps introduce some more combat-related traits on the faction side to make different combinations of class and faction meaningful, and we could be good to go.

If you have any specific skills of the Flying skill tree in mind, I'd love to hear your opinion. Since I'll be working on heroes for my mod project anyway, I might as well do some rebalancing along the way.

not a single of the skills is overpowered the problem is the combination of them all you just get a very buff heavy hero which is good in each situation.

I can't give details since I don't have any saves where I own the haunts guy but it like +2 reinforcements banner, a initiative buff, a siege trait, some movement I thought and a defence buff you should just try and get him in one of you games or the game files.

also doesn't help that the only flying hero has chain lightning and possiblities for better chain and/or disease.

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VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 5:07:06 PM

Lorco wrote:
the problem is more that the skill tree for flying heroes is very powerfull and having more of them might unbalance the game.

Again, that is not a problem inherent with the basic concept of a flying hero, it is a problem with balancing. Make some of those flying hero skills more reasonable, and perhaps introduce some more combat-related traits on the faction side to make different combinations of class and faction meaningful, and we could be good to go.

If you have any specific skills of the Flying skill tree in mind, I'd love to hear your opinion. Since I'll be working on heroes for my mod project anyway, I might as well do some rebalancing along the way.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 4:07:43 PM

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I'm fairly sure one of the GDDs way back before release implied that there would indeed be different combinations of race and class, and the interface still looks like there should be.

And I don't think a ready availability of Flying heroes should be an issue by itself. The problem is rather, in my opinion, that flying units in general have better stats than infantry and are only hampered by their often limited weapon selection. Flying units having better stats than infantry units on top of their better strategic and tactical movement is just too much rolled into one. They are more expensive, but I rarely found reason to use infantry over a flyer unless the infantry had a very useful capacity.

the problem is more that the skill tree for flying heroes is very powerfull and having more of them might unbalance the game.

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VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

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VIPThe-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

Shifter

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 12:33:50 PM

I'm fairly sure one of the GDDs way back before release implied that there would indeed be different combinations of race and class, and the interface still looks like there should be.

And I don't think a ready availability of Flying heroes should be an issue by itself. The problem is rather, in my opinion, that flying units in general have better stats than infantry and are only hampered by their often limited weapon selection. Flying units having better stats than infantry units on top of their better strategic and tactical movement is just too much rolled into one. They are more expensive, but I rarely found reason to use infantry over a flyer unless the infantry had a very useful capacity.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 7:23:44 AM

if flying/cavalry heroes would be a problem then just don't add them. I just want there to be more to choosing heroes then just their race since the class is always the same.

also small question what is the main reason anybody ever buys the haunts hero because next to being the only flying hero in the game I also think he is probably the best science governor so I mostly buy him for the science.

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

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10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 1:22:01 AM

Yes you can find the Haunt hero on the market, after you've unlocked him through the endless day quest.

I worry that having more flying heroes would make them more likely to be on the market, and would make them prone to abuse. The good thing about Endless Legend is that, while it has potent flying units, it still attributes a lot of importance on terrain, be it mountains, forests, or sea. All-flying strike teams, while useful, weren't the name of the game, unlike in Age of Wonders 3, where flyers / floaters have a decisive advantage and always end up being all over the map. I worry that if there are more flying heroes around, that all-flying strike teams become the norm, which wasn't really possible before because of the absence / rarity of flying heroes. It would render topographic realities less important strategically.

Also, I must say I find the aesthetics of flying armies all over the map kind of annoying. Thankfully however, flyers can't fly over seas / lakes (unlike AoW3), so it wouldn't be a disaster to have more flying heroes, I'd just rather not have any.

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ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

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ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 12:57:59 AM

If you're going to have one hero that is flying, you might as well have a few. If there's only one in the game, then it increases the chances of abuse when one faction can get lucky and snatch them out of the pool before anyone else, and then they have an advantage that nobody else does. If there were more flying heroes, even if they were rare, then it would allow multiple players to pick one up, and if they have different stats/capacities/skill trees then so much the better, because then each empire can leverage that difference to their advantage.

However, if flying heroes remained somehow more exclusive, like being tied to a quest instead of found on the market, then there is a good reason to keep them more powerful. Can the Haunts hero be found on the market? It kinda looks like it can in the files, but I've never had it appear in a game I've played.

Cavalry heroes face a different sort of problem, I think, and that is that they would be effectively Infantry heroes but with extra battle movement. They might just make them obsolete. I guess it really depends on how the skill tree would be.

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Lorco

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Lorco

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10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 9:09:16 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to have more flying heroes. It will be prone to abuse very quickly and easily, what with the many ways to boost movement.

The problem with adding more hero classes is that I am not convinced that they would manage to make them pertinent. The support class, while awesome, is less of a support class and more of a master of everything (+ early reinforcement flags, which is their biggest selling point). The Infantry commander skill tree is meh, imo, with no particular skill that makes them unique or strictly speaking necessary. Only the ranged commander provides something unique and interesting to the table (+1 range). So I am skeptical about making more hero classes, as I doubt they would manage to make them that useful or interesting.

I do think hero diversity should be sought after, but more in the form of making more different heroes, with different models, different names, and different bios (as opposed to having X the third and Y the fourth), as well as different, more unique traits (as opposed to the usual boosts. Things like different abilities, unique small items, different traits like better exploration or better sea faring...etc).

the only class that would need to be made is the cavalry one. But you are probably right about the not to much additional flying heroes. but I guess that the second options i listed before could be rarer then the normal ones(makes sense in the lore since for the Wild Walkers shamans would be rarer then archers).

And now after some of the things you said maybe a cultist support hero isn't such a good idea either for my list (since cultists get 2 faction traits that give around 30% to attack or defense) a cavalry might be better don't really know.

the point i want to bring up is that although there is an option for 3 hero skill trees (class,default and racial) there never is a difference between racial/class since every race only has 1 class.

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

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10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 7:09:12 PM

I don't think it's a good idea to have more flying heroes. It will be prone to abuse very quickly and easily, what with the many ways to boost movement.

The problem with adding more hero classes is that I am not convinced that they would manage to make them pertinent. The support class, while awesome, is less of a support class and more of a master of everything (+ early reinforcement flags, which is their biggest selling point). The Infantry commander skill tree is meh, imo, with no particular skill that makes them unique or strictly speaking necessary. Only the ranged commander provides something unique and interesting to the table (+1 range). So I am skeptical about making more hero classes, as I doubt they would manage to make them that useful or interesting.

I do think hero diversity should be sought after, but more in the form of making more different heroes, with different models, different names, and different bios (as opposed to having X the third and Y the fourth), as well as different, more unique traits (as opposed to the usual boosts. Things like different abilities, unique small items, different traits like better exploration or better sea faring...etc).

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Lorco

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Lorco

Senior Protector

10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 5:19:17 PM

its not that you are limited to you faction it more that next to having to choose between how good of a goveneur it will be (mostly the racial skill tree) i would also like to see some more combat specific chooses like having a broken lord cavalry hero instead of a infantry hero. that isn't the best example but it should show what I mean.

also there really should be more flying heroes right now only the haunts hero has a flying skill tree but its a really good skill tree for combat.

I would like to see something like the examples I will give here under. these are always currently in-game available first and the possible additions.

Cultists: infantry or support hero

Broken Lord: infantry or cavalry hero

Necrophages: infantry or flying hero (definitely not support because a hero proliferator would be a problem)

Vaulters: ranged or cavalry hero

Wild Walkers: ranged or support

Ardent Mages: suppport or ..... hero (not certain about them infantry or ranged)

Roving Clans: ranged or cavalry hero

Drakkan: support or flying hero

Forgotten: infantry or ranged hero (could flying instead of ranged but ranged seems the most fitting)

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OwlRaider

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OwlRaider

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 4:43:45 PM

Why do you need 2 different hero types for every faction? It's not like you're limited to only buying heroes from your own faction. Diversify your hero roster according to your needs and what's available on the market, regardless of whether they're of your faction or not.

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