The booster that reduces city Dust upkeep by 50% (definitely not shitty) last 10 turns.



I think you are discounting Open Pit Mining too quickly. Consider that you may find something more useful in a future region...

Propbuddha wrote:
You research Filigree/Armor/Alloys as your 10th, 11th and 12th tech with Open Pit Mine 13th. Why not research Open Pit Mine 10th and grab the Age 2 techs 11th, 12th and 13th? I agree these are needed and I have Age 2 Armor and Alloys as my very early (likely first and second) age 2 picks.

Open Pit could go 10th, but really I've yet to use any of the luxury resource boosts, so it is really most of an afterthought as I leave the age (I always get at least 12 for the BL main story quest. Also I keep forgetting about luxury resources so don't know what most do, actually.) I generally don't grab the Age 2 Armor/Alloys unless I've been having back luck getting the Tier 3 quests/completing them. Tier 1 is enough to really deal with any of the minor factions, and most major factions until late game with the current AI's play style. I do like getting the Filigree's regardless because of the boost to my heroes.

I'd say that the broken lords should also always research the Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers. They do a lot of buyout, so they can as well reduce the cost for it.

Nosferatiel wrote:
I'd say that the broken lords should also always research the Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers. They do a lot of buyout, so they can as well reduce the cost for it.

Agree, I mentioned it in the comments, but forgot to add it to "situational". That said, assuming you want to research the minimum 10 techs necessary to reach age 2, I'm not sure what I'd bump to get this.

Propbuddha wrote:
Agree, I mentioned it in the comments, but forgot to add it to "situational". That said, assuming you want to research the minimum 10 techs necessary to reach age 2, I'm not sure what I'd bump to get this.

With the Broken Lords main quest, you'll actually be going for 12 before too long.

Nice post, I agree with just about everything here.

Propbuddha wrote:


Pass On

These are not very useful, have better substitutes or non-tech methods to obtain the same effect.

• Stronghold Architecture
• Advanced Armors
• Advanced Alloys
• Advanced Filigree
  
  

Some relatively minor balance changes could make these techs far more useful, I think: For the "Advanced" techs, making tier 2 weapons, armor and trinkets significantly more expensive (both in terms of production and resources) would generate a lot of value; and for Stronghold Architecture, removing or vastly nerfing the base defense when in city would help it, as sitting in a city practically makes units invincible right now, even without SA (though I suspect it might still need something to improve it, such as a free borough district, free garrison, lower unit maintenance when in cities, etc.).

Interesting analysis. I don't disagree about too much.



Is it possible to skip Open Pit Mine and get some kind of advanced version through a quest? I remember something like that happening.



I have taken Dust Dredger and Centre for Seas and Rivers quite often. I think it meant I ended up researching 11 or 12 Tier 1s, which did seem wasteful.



Couldn't agree more about the weapon techs. Why take them, when T2 is just around the corner? Even better, if you can get T3 from a quest, that saves you a whole world of research.

My typical tech path for the Wildwalkers looks like this:

(1) Mill Foundry - because the production boost is just insane and will speed up all other constructions.

(2) Public Library - because science is king. The earlier I can get extra science, the faster I'll be able to get the other techs.

(3) Empire Mint - because the extra dust gives me flexibility (rush units, buildings, buy heroes, pay upkeep).

(4) Language Square - because at this point neutral monster can become annoying. Having an early peaceful way to deal with them is quite nice.

(5) Dust Dredger - this one is situational. If I have rivers around my cities this will be very powerful. If I don't, it will be useless.

(6) Center for Seas and Rivers - also sort of situational. If I have a coastal start, I might even move this to 5. If I have no water at all, the +3 science per worker still makes it a decent investment over time.

(7) Stronghold Architecture - for extra defence against early game aggression. No idea how effective they actually are, though...



Seed Storage would certainly be a high priority tech (#2) if I was playing another food-depending race. Sewer System would be around spot 5-7, depending on the overall happiness situation.



The rest of the techs is quite situational. Stuff I rarely reserach in Era I are:

(I) Agache Shaman (seems to have little impact on auto combat)

(II) Rookery (I usually don't have the money for extra heroes at this point, but usually useful later on - so if I still need a tech for Era II I'll pick this)

(III) Advanced Armor (I see no need for this equipment)

(IV) Advanced Alloys (I see no need for this equipment)

(V) Advanced Filigree (I see no need for this equipment)

(VI) Search Party (Because I didn't notice any significant difference when I had reserached it)

(VII) Alchemist's Furnace: Because I don't use the other related techs.



In general I feeld that the FIDS providing buildings are way too powerful. Their benefits are so large that they almost override the importance of terrain and winter from the very start of the game. Their effects should be reduced signficiantly to make them less of a no-brainer. For example, I'd toss out the % bonus completely and instead add Era II or even III techs that provides this instead. Another good idea could be to reduce the base worker output to 2 (down from 4) and add the +2 back to these buildings.



What I would like to see instead are more situational/terrain dependened techs. Stuff that unlocks buildings that give you small benefits for certain climate types. Like "+1 dust on all snow-type hexes", "+1 science from all forest-type hexes", "+1 food from all desert-type hexes", "+1 production from all river tiles", "+1 Influence from all anomaly tiles", "+1 dust from all hot tiles". Or techs that give benefits "per pop" of a city, so that you could choose between fast growth (workers on food) or other benfits (workers on dust, science, hammers).



Another thing that needs attention is happiness and early city growth. As it is, there seems to be no significant "overpopulation" penalty. Players really shouldn't be able to have 10+ sized cities this early in the game. Or: There could be techs that provide some extra happiness to make that somewhat more possible, at the expenese of other potential stuff you could reserach. But this shows one important problem with the tech tree at this point:

As long as the game mechanics aren't in place, it is hard to impossible to find a good approach to balance out technology.

I think it depends a lot on the faction too regarding how beneficial the various research is. For example by BL research order is this:



Search Party

Empire Mint

Dust Dredger

Center for Seas and Rivers

Alchemist's Furnace

Public Library

Mill Foundry

Rookery

Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers

Advance Filigree

Advanced Armors

Advanced Alloys

Open Pit Mine



The reasoning behind it being that I don't have poorly placed cities... all of them are near the water, or wrapped in rivers. So I get a very healthy boost to my Science and Dust with the two water techs. Rookery, allows me to start putting more BL Heros in my cities for a higher Dust output still. The Titanium/Glassteel techs give the BL infantry a standing chance against minor factions and other AI armies. (I find once I start fighting 3-4 opponents I start to lose some units) Sure they are replaced in Era2 by tier 2 or 3 versions, but tier 2 has other important stuff for me to get off the cuff so just like in era 1 I save the army upgrades until the end. The books are another nice boost to Science and Dust, and pretty much negate the effects of winter.

Pass On

These are not very useful, have better substitutes or non-tech methods to obtain the same effect.

• Stronghold Architecture
• Advanced Armors
• Advanced Alloys
• Advanced Filigree
  
  

I'm curious as to what meant by non-tech methods to obtain the same effect regarding these techs.

Atepa, I'm not positive what he means, but there are some quests you can receive and complete to "unlock" tier 3 weapons, armor/filigree. I think the point is, why research these when you can get better versions for doing quests? Of course, you may not receive these quests for a long time due to sheer luck, or you may fail them. Also, you may not be able to wait that long for the upgrades as your opponents upgrade their troops and they start to dominate your non-upgraded troops. Hard to tell with the current AI and lack of multiplayer.

Atepa wrote:
I think it depends a lot on the faction too regarding how beneficial the various research is. For example by BL research order is this:



Search Party

Empire Mint

Dust Dredger

Center for Seas and Rivers

Alchemist's Furnace

Public Library

Mill Foundry

Rookery

Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers

Advance Filigree

Advanced Armors

Advanced Alloys

Open Pit Mine

You research Filigree/Armor/Alloys as your 10th, 11th and 12th tech with Open Pit Mine 13th. Why not research Open Pit Mine 10th and grab the Age 2 techs 11th, 12th and 13th? I agree these are needed and I have Age 2 Armor and Alloys as my very early (likely first and second) age 2 picks.

Atepa wrote:
I'm curious as to what meant by non-tech methods to obtain the same effect regarding these techs.

It's a generic statement...



For Armors/Alloys/Filigree, the Age 2 techs are the substitutes. As Zerrigan mentioned, you can also get weapon techs through quests (albeit randomly).



For Stronghold Architecture there are hero skills that give city defense also (assuming city defense = defensive bonuses for units when city is attacked) , armor is also a substitute.

Here's a review of the Age 1 techs...



Overview



Most of the Age I techs are worth taking and the decision-making is more on what order to buy them. The Items in this tier illustrate a potential danger with the research system in Endless Legend - if the next tier's tech is strictly better, why bother taking the early tech?



Based on initial Alpha



Rookery

Unlocks the Heroes section of the Marketplace



I'm not a big fan of marketplace access being tied to techs. If you don't do the research, you're locked out of a big chunk of the game. Heroes are great but they are expensive and early on you'll be spending your Dust on buyouts. Eventually you'll want more so you're forced to research this.



Stronghold Architecture

City Improvement - +3 Defense on city, 1 Dust upkeep



It's not clear to me at this point what "city defense" does. Do units in battle on city hexes get a defense bonus? Is the city more resistant to siege? In any case I don't think this is too useful early on and there's a lot of "city defense" techs and perks.



Dawn Officer/Agache Shaman/Ryder/Necrodrone

Unit - Faction-specific



Your faction has three unique units, so you'll want to take them, right? Unfortunately, these units give weak buffs (Agache Shaman) or can be replaced by Minor Faction cavalry (Dawn Officer & Ryder). The Necrodrone is a strong unit though and is worth the research.



Public Library

City Improvement - +10 Science on City, +20% Science Output on City, 1 Dust Upkeep



In the early game, research is a "nice to have". You won't build this improvement until later on, but take this because you'll want it later.



Alchemist's Furnace

Expansions - Glassteel and Titanium Excavators



Even if you dont have Glassteel or Titanium in your start region, you will in a future one. Buy this and you'll have access to good gear or minimally, be able to sell it.



Center for Seas and Rivers

City Improvement - +2 Science per water tile, +3 Science per Worker, -1 Dust upkeep



If you have (or plan to have) a coastal city, this is a good buy as you'll get a nice boost and can dedicate workers to Science for even more. However, it's situational and Research is a luxury in the early game so the actual improvement may be built later.



Mill Foundry

City Improvement - +6 Industry on City, +30% Industry Output on City, -1 Dust upkeep



Industry is useful in the early game and you'll want this tech (and the actual building) early. Buy it.



Advanced Armors

Items - Tier 1 Glassteel/Titanium Armors



You'll definitely want to upgrade your armies with better armor and weapons throughout the game. To take advantage of this, you'll need to have Alchemist's Furnace researched and build an extractor. While you'll want do those things, you won't have much time left in Age I to take advantage and in Age II you can buy the "Tier 2" versions of this tech. I don't think there much need to to buy this (or any of the Tier 1 item techs) in Age 1. My gut says a single tech that unlocks all tiers of Items for a particular Strategic resource (with a particular Age requirement, like Iron weapons) may be the better way to handle Items in the game.



Advanced Alloys

Items - Tier 1 Glassteel/Titanium Weapons



See Advanced Armors.



Sewer System

City Improvement - +25 Approval on City, +1 Influence on Happy, -1 Dust upkeep



Nothing says happiness like a quality sewer system. You won't see another Aprroval-ralated tech until Age III and that one (Central Market) costs 750% more to build with a marginally better benefit. You wont build a Sewer System quickly, but as your empire expands you'll need this to keep your citizens happy and clean.



Search Party

Army Action - Improved results on ruin searches



Probably the only tech that is purely useful in early game. Research this this first before you start "tomb raiding". It's not worth getting later.



Language Square

Army Action - Unlocks Parley and Bribe for Minor Factions



Parlaying is probably the best way to deal with your neighbors. You get a quest (and the reward) and you don't have to rebuild the villages you burn down.



Empire Mint

City Improvement - +5 Dust on City, +20% Dust Output



Like, Seed Storage, Mill Foundry and Public Library. This cheap FIDSI booster is something you're going to want.



Dust Dredger

City Improvement - +2 Dust on River Tile, +3 Dust on Water Tile



Similar to the Center for Seas and Rivers, this is great for coastal cities and actually works with rivers too. Broken Lords will probably want this for later on, even if you don't have sea-side property at the start.



Open Pit Mine

Expansions - Dye, Emerald, Wine, Spice and Gold Extractors



You're going to want to exploit these luxuries at some point as the boosts are nice. You likely have better things to do in Age 1, but you'll get around to it eventually.



Seed Storage

City Improvement - +10 Food, +20% Food Output, -1 Dust upkeep



This is a great boost to population and is available right exactly when you want it. After Search Party, you should research this then start building them to speed up your city growth.



Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers

Reduces buyouts of units, expansions and city improvements by 25%



Early in the game, you'll have a lot of cash from your tomb raiding and you'll likely be using it to buyout production. Broken Lords or Dust-rich players may get more mileage but this is purely a nice to have and likely something you can pass on.



Advance Filigree

Items - Tier 1 Glassteel/Titanium Accessories



Unlike weapons and armor upgrades, I don't think items are a necessity, especially in Age I when you are trying to get a foothold. The abilities on them aren't unique (ex. Confidence 1 = +20 defense vs. melee attacks) and the weapons and armors are strictly better (value-wise are well). Pass on this.



Top 10

Recommended techs in age 1, roughly in order but circumstances may warrant priority changes. Bold indicates a must-have

• Search Party
• Seed Storage (or Empire Mint if playing Broken Lords)
• Mill Foundry
• Language Square (or Necrodrone if playing Necrophages)
• Alchemist's Furnace
• Open Pit Mine
• Public Library
• Empire Mint (or Dust Dredger if playing Broken Lords)
• Sewer System
• Rookery
  
  

Situational

These may be useful to you and your strategy.

• Dust Dredger
• Center for Seas and Rivers
• Dawn Officer/Agache Shaman/Ryder
• Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers (Broken Lords)
  
  

Pass On

These are not very useful, have better substitutes or non-tech methods to obtain the same effect.

• Stronghold Architecture
• Advanced Armors
• Advanced Alloys
• Advanced Filigree
  
  

Southern_Hunter wrote:


Is it possible to skip Open Pit Mine and get some kind of advanced version through a quest? I remember something like that happening.

No, because IIRC that quest requires you to build extractors on two luxuries, for which you need Open Pit Mine in the first place...



I find that Advanced Filigree is always useful, as an extra +2 / per opulation: is quite good as a boost!



I'd rather see the FIDS(I) producing building to get rid of flat FIDS(I) bonuses and provide % bonuses and +FIDS(I) per opulation: bonuses as that makes for more city specialization.



There's no overpopulation penalty whatsoever, but each additional opulation: is exponentially more expensive, so there's an opportunity cost in keeping your opulation: on producing .

Flat FIDSI bonuses are most useful early game, which is why (I assume) they are included in many of the Age I improvements. Not sure if they are too good, but it is a bit of a no-brainer to take and build them as soon as feasible.

I agree that maybe the first Era Arms and armor should be just one upgrade, perhaps call it "Advanced Crafting" and then have the next Era add the tier upgrades.



On a side note: are you all okay with the science requirement being the same for all tech in one era, increasing after every tech learned? I wouldn't mind it as long as it also added a little bit of ES's research tier, just to give the feel that science heavy races can actually grab more techs, or (In theory) a quest that gives science points (In theory) would allow for multiple techs to be researched at once?

I actually think it's better not to include all of the equipment in one research item, since it takes away from the choice-making you have to do, not to mention it would become an extremely strong choice because you could unlock a lot of stuff for the price of one research item. I also think the scaling research cost is a good idea, since it prevents too large a snowball in terms of research and also makes the route which you choose to unlock things something you want to think a little about.



I'd like to know what the heck city defence does though. In ES, having the defence stopped your systems from being taken over too quickly, but EL doesn't seem to have the same mechanic (yet maybe); I've never seen it have any kind of effect, since I can just walk up to a city and take it over provided no troops from the enemy are around. It doesn't seem like there's any choice between attacking a city or sieging it, which makes me wonder what the point of Stronghold Architecture is.

I see your point. Maybe change the placement of the techs, since weapons and armor would be purely military, but the alchemist lab is fine in the production side.



Still, it just feels like you are choosing one path and making sure you stick to it, whereas with a web tier there are more chances of you stopping the path and choosing another path plan. Maybe I just feel there isn't really enough early path variety for each race (obviously which race determines what you research first, but the end result is still roughly the same)

I actually miss the fact that there no faction specific techs like there was in ES... I mean yes, there is the unique units research, but I don't really count those, as they are unlocking unit types. I mean more of a "oh hey vaulters have a more science based tree" or Broken lords have more economic based tree. With how things are at the moment, there are simply some techs that races will skip over because they are useless to them.

Atepa wrote:
I actually miss the fact that there no faction specific techs like there was in ES... I mean yes, there is the unique units research, but I don't really count those, as they are unlocking unit types. I mean more of a "oh hey vaulters have a more science based tree" or Broken lords have more economic based tree. With how things are at the moment, there are simply some techs that races will skip over because they are useless to them.

There are, they're just not that extensive (I expect that is on the to-do list), and many are only unlocked via quests.

You kind of have faction specific techs. They're unlocked via quests though and don't require research.