Dalwin wrote:
One thing on the rookery, though I have not tested it extensively. It seems that the earlier you check the heroes market, the cheaper they are. I can't tell you how cheap if you say make the rookery your very first tech, but I think there is a hidden factor in prioritizing that one,

I suppose that the priced are factored by lv, and early on heroes have lower level. The same probably goes for Mercenaries however it is hard to get mercs early.

As for vialability... that is definetly something to think about. Getting BL or Wildwaker hero early on could be great. You will have some dust from ruins...



On side note i need to express my disappointment with some of tier I techs:

Slavery - it could be very cool with cash from ruins and speeding up founderstone, and 4early FIDS buildings, but... you are saving 4x40d that way, so not that much. Possibly second that for second city. And i end up needing a lot of gold for unit upgrades. On the other side it have some uses for a whole game.

Parley - parley quests are fun, since give the purpose. But there is a lot of running here and there to turnback quest which is waste of time. It is easier to just kill them all, and get xp for that.

Tresure hunting - the probability of getting reward is good enought without this one. And it does not affect size of treasure nor makes it better. It would be nice if there was a chance of getting from goodiehuts minerals.

ok here comes funny question: does anyone pick Rookery early on? (like 1st tech)

Does early heroes are cheaper? like 200 dust?

Since that could be a very viable strategy, to research it early, send 1st hero on scouting, and summon asap second for city duty...

The other thing is general unit not counting to army limit... i dont like it. This gives too big advantage. Not like general already dont gives a coupe of bonuses here and there, and is a super unit itself. ;-/

Subsoniclight wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you for a moment on the Rookery. Having to force a decision between researching the tech or not factors into my early game strategy quite a bit, especially with the Broken Lords. Having to decide whether I want to keep a hero and home and another one out adventuring or if I will only have one or the other makes the investment a worthwhile decision. In a multiplayer game (whenever we get those) the extra hero unit in a battle could mean a world of difference, and if you keep your starting hero locked up in your city as opposed to someone who bought an extra one to bring out to play, it could great a serious dilemma for you.

I don't think he was saying to research those 8 in that order, but rather that he always takes those 8. Not taking the rookery at all doesn't seem like a viable option.



I often find myself halfway through the 2nd era and going back to the first to grab an 11th or 12th tech that didn't seem important at the time but now is worthwhile. For example, if none of my first 2 or 3 cities are near a river I am in no hurry to grab the river bonus techs.



Obviously there are some faction based deviations. Food being useless to Broken Lords means ignoring those techs gives them even fewer real choices to make other than the order of researching items.

I think that for Broken Lords early Rookery and Slavery could be very good. So you can send one Lord for adventure duty and the other for city. It seems that early on heros happen to be cheaper.



On the sidenote: It is fun mockery to give advanced armors to Broken Lords as starting tech. It is not like they are going for some big offensive anytime soon. And armors without extractors are a bit pointless. I suppose that slaver, rookery, dust dreger or parley would make more sense.

Very fascinating and well organized thread guys. Thank you Propbuddha for that initiative! I would love to read what you guys think of the techs of the eras 2, 3 and 4

Others have gone into more detail but I'd figure I would drop my opinion on the techs also. Let me start with backing up the idea that population is too effective. Perhaps have some kind of overpopulation malus such as each pop over 5 is -5 approval? If not, that is fine, but 4base resources per pop is too much and makes terrain not nearly as relevant past the early game. I'm ok with making it 3 although some have suggested 2.



1. Rookery.



Not much to be said about this. I often don't get it until later because so many other Era 1 techs take precedence, but the advantages of having multiple heroes is obviously huge. I haven't researched this early enough to see how much beginning heroes cost, but lvl 6 or 7 heroes from the market cost 1k or so dust, which is quite expensive if you aren't focusing on dust. This makes me this taking this early would have great benefits, but I think the issue is that the other techs are so mandatory. That being said, it creates a nice choice. Do I sacrifice early econ for early hero, or vice versa?



2. Stronghold Architecture.



I might have researched this once for the sheer giggles of it. Cities already give a lot of defence, so this is almost overkill and generally you only have a couple of spots in the battle map this applies to, so it ends up being very underwhelming. That being said, as I understand, the whole siege mechanic is being worked on so it is hard to offer suggestions when I don't know what is about to come. My own opinion: Keep the defence bonus, but also add something else. People have talked about the upkeep of garrison being OP. Perhaps start the game with garrison units still costing 100% (or something high like 75%) upkeep. However, when you research techs like this, it increases city defense AND it decreases upkeep for garrison units. Another suggestion, I don't know if this is the plan, but if there was to be a mandatory amount of turns to siege before taking a city, these techs could also increase the siege length. Perhaps even some could negate the effects of sieges. For example, if you are under siege everything takes a hit. I don't know the numbers, but lets say 50% across the board. So while under siege without this tech, you lots 50% fids and approval. However, with this tech (or some higher levels, or perhaps this could be its own separate tech like blockade runners or something?) you only lose 25% fids?



3. Unit tech.



Not much to say here as this is more of a unit balance issue which there are other threads about. Others can cover that pretty well, but I would say some units are definitely underwhelming compared to others. Necrodone>Dawn Officer for example.



4. Public Library



10 science AND 20%? Too much in my opinion. This scales pretty well into the game due to research costs, but we could always change the cost of research. Right now, if you don't' take this, you are shooting yourself in the foot as it offers such a huge bonus to science. There has been plenty of discussion on the era 1 buildings and how they are too effective. Science is a little less noticeable than food or industry, but this is still the same situation. Perhaps just a flat 10 to science would be enough? I'm not a huge numbers balancer, but something needs to happen to make this a conscious choice instead of I NEED IT PLEASE. As others have said, there should be an obvious and "pain-felt" opportunity cost for every choice. Part of the reason I am harping on this is because while food and industry is very important, science snowballs, although with ramping tech costs not as much as in ES. Someone who takes this first can get others techs even faster, and so on.



5. Alchemist's Furnace.



Not much to say here. Obviously needed for weapons and armor for the first couple of eras. I think it creates a somewhat interesting choice in that it allows you to start accumulating these resources if you research this early. IDK if this would make it OP, but perhaps as a little extra incentive each extractor in a region could add 1 industry or something small? Maybe this isn't even needed, but it would make the tech slightly more interesting.



6. Center for Seas and Rivers



Seems slightly underwhelming. With BL it could be nice considering they like the ocean for high dust, but otherwise most people don't populate near oceans unless anomalies just happen to be there. I think a couple of fixes could help this. First, creates some water anomalies! Have whales or schools or fish, or even coral reefs or something. You can probably come up with more interesting things. This helps makes oceans slightly more attractive. Also, from what I've read it doesn't sound like you plan on having an aquatic faction (major or minor), but this would obviously be huge for them. I would be all for having at least an aquatic minor faction or 2. An aquatic major would be interesting, but also hard to balance. Otherwise, this tech seems ok. It is very specialized, just almost too specialized and with the other really good options in era 1 it just ofter gets overlooked until later when you can start putting pop on science.



7. Mill Foundry.



Definitely in top 3. The 6 +30% is just too much for era 1. Make it +7 if you need to, but the 30% makes it scale way too efficiently and makes it a no brainer. Even without the 30% people are still going to take it because industry is so huge. I think more can be done to make the other resources more attractive, but that is more of an overall balance than a per tech balance. If the tech only gives a flat bonus, it is at least a little less likely to be a no brainer and people will have to actively decide when to get this. We want each tech to be worth something and to be attractive depending on what strategy we are going for. Right now, this is a MUST for everyone, and even with the reduction, will still be a must, but less of one.



8&9. Advanced Alloys and Armors.



As others have said, the weapons and armors are obviously useful, but there are just so many other pressing concerns at era 1 that these often are overlooked and are skipped in favor of the T2 techs for weapons and armor. Some suggestions I have read and like include making Era 1 last slightly longer (maybe increase the techs required for era 2 by 1 or 2), however if this happens we need more techs in era 1 to compensate, otherwise we end up researching nearly everything. Another suggestion is to make researching previous techs lower the cost of higher techs. For example, researching Advanced Alloys making the T2 equivalent 15% cheaper or something like that. On that note, perhaps not reduce the cost of the tech, but add bonuses to armor? If you have a T1 glassteel it could add 5dam and 4 init (for example). If you have a T2 it could add 8dam and 6 init. If you have T1 AND T2, t1 adds 6dam and 4 int while T2 adds 9dam and 6 int. So in this example, having both T1 and T2 adds a flat +1 to all glassteel weapons (maybe +1crit for all tit, you get the point). One step further, if you have T1, T2, and T3, it adds +2 dam and +1int/crit. This allows us to really improve our equipment but we have to pour research and time into it. I feel like this a good idea although it probably could be more fleshed out. This way, if someone skips T1 weapons, it doesn't kill them, they simply are a little less effective early game and slightly less effective compared to someone who takes both tiers. If someone does take it, it is reflected and they aren't punished for spending time researching it when someone else just waiting 10 turns and got T2 later and they both end up with T2 weapons.



10. Sewer System.



I don't have much to say about this. It works pretty well. You don't need the approval early on so you can safely skip it, but if you do invest time into this early on, you can build up some extra influence not to mention you make you populace happier which means more fids. I feel like this is in a pretty good state but others make disagree.



11. Search Party



I usually get this first, but I am curious as to just HOW effective this is? Does it increase the % of finding an event (dust, quest), does it increase the amount of dust recovered, does it do both, or something different? I feel like knowing what this does would help us actually evaluate it better. Nonetheless, it is usually the first tech I grab. I think it is probably in a good spot. It is very specific in helping the early game, but late game the ruins don't add all the much compared to your big econ so it isn't really worth taking. Any other thoughts?



12. Language Square.



Much like the last tech. Definitely has uses, but it can also be skipped without killing your game. I like the fact that some races such as the necros probably don't want this so they can keep farming neutrals for food. I feel like it is in a pretty good spot. Perhaps this would be OP, but maybe combine the search party and this into 1 tech? I feel like that might be a nobrainer choice most of the time though, so perhaps it is fine the way it is.



13. Empire Mint



As with the other era 1 fids buildings, it scales too well. Make it +6 or something, but the 20% makes it another no brainer. I feel like it is less noticeable than the others, but at the same time, it is a no brainer due to increasing upkeep costs so you HAVE to research this or you will go broke. I feel like out of all the era 1 fids tech, this is probably in the best spot.



14. Dust Dredger



In a decent spot. Almost a no brainer for DL, but for others you have to be near water for it to work, so it isn't a no brainer. On that note however, I do find rivers to be almost too useful. They already have a natural bonus to fids and there are 2 era 1 techs that make them even more attractive. I almost would like to see a tech for river that produce science, but then it would be a no brainer to look for a river. I feel like the natural bonus for rivers can be taken away and they will still be attractive. That, or somehow program the game to put less anomalies near rivers that way we have more of a choice between settling near a river for future bonuses, or settling near anomalies for near instant bonuses.



15. Seed Storage



It has been beat to death, but another too strong era 1 fids tech. 10food and 20% is way too much. Heck, even the 10 is a lot by itself and could probably be something like 8. You could keep it pretty strong but the -1 upkeep it too little for this amazing improvement.



16. Prisoners(etc)



A viable tech that is just overshadowed by others. Maybe reduce the buyout by 33 to make it more attractive? I think the main thing is just balancing out the other techs and this will be more valuable. It is a nice tech, there are just nicer techs to get first.



17. Filigree



Even worse than the weapons and armor. The accessories offer less stats and as others have mentioned, while they do add abilities, they are often underwhelming. I'm not saying EVERY ability needs to be fantastically unique, but right now, the abilities the tier 1 offers just aren't worth taking. This ties in with the weapons/armor. If era 1 was longer this might be more attractive. I also think the stacking system I mentioned would work for this. T1 titan ring adds 5hp for example, T2 adds 11, if you have both researched, both tiers receive a +1 bonus to health or something like that. Maybe a % bonus instead so the higher tiers benefit from the lower tiers equally as well.

11. Search Party



I usually get this first, but I am curious as to just HOW effective this is? Does it increase the % of finding an event (dust, quest), does it increase the amount of dust recovered, does it do both, or something different? I feel like knowing what this does would help us actually evaluate it better. Nonetheless, it is usually the first tech I grab. I think it is probably in a good spot. It is very specific in helping the early game, but late game the ruins don't add all the much compared to your big econ so it isn't really worth taking. Any other thoughts?

The files suggest that it reduces the chance of a "nothing found" event by 10 points:

[code]







[/code]



If that value operates on a % base (so -10 points = -10% absolute) it means that tech will yield on average one additional reward for every 10 ruins you scout. No idea if it has any other effects within the code, though (like improving the chance of good finds). If it has, it is certainly not listed under the regular tech effects. Unless there are hidden effects I highly doubt that the tech is actually worth researching.

3ntf4k3d wrote:
The files suggest that it reduces the chance of a "nothing found" event by 10 points

Thanks for digging that up!



Your math is a little off though, the benefit depends on what the base chance of "getting nothing" is. If it is 50%, then this would change the odds to 40/60, so you get 20% (10/50) more successful searches.



My observation is that what you get is better based on the Age you search in.



Of course the effect is luck based so you may not benefit at all. Still if you're going to get this, you need to get it first...

Here is an idea that I posted in the thread about research in the other half of the forum. Even though it seems counter-intuitive, I think the decisions made during research would be more important if 10 was not only the minimum requirement from an era to move on, but was also the maximum number you cuold take from that era.



There would likely still be 6 you always took every game with some slight variation between players or factions. The choices for the last few, however, would seem more important knowing that you couldn't just come back and grab the others later.



This would avoid a problem that some 4x games have which is that late in the game everyone has more or less researched everything. The individual choices were not important. All that mattered was the order you did them in and how quickly.

I don't know if I agree on the limiting techs to 10 per era. It might be interesting if it's a soft limit, ie. once you reach 10 you need X amount in the next era(s) to unlock more. So after 10 age 1, you get +1 extra age 1 tech (that you also have to research) for every 5 age 2, or every 3 age 3 and or every 1 age 4. For age 2 it's +1 every 5 age 3 or every 3 age 4 or every 1 age 5, etc.



The thing is techs go up in cost, so there's already a pretty severe penalty for getting them later, or backtracking. The more you backtrack the harder it is to get your current age techs therefore the harder it is to get to the next age and the one after and so on. So ya, the game is pretty brutal on you already when it comes to that...



-



Doing this blind so as to not get influenced. Sorry if it's repeating what others have said.



From the perspective of Vaulters, since I think faction matters a lot.



From experimentation I find building tall early is best for growth (30 turn experiments). Also I find 7food, 7ind, 6+ sci is kind of mandatory for start. Hero on city also seems better then actually roaming, since lots of explorers makes for lots of dust which helps with buyouts for building taller faster.



Techs that feel useless, or should be age 2,

• Rookery - too much money investment that you dont have
• Stronghold Architecture - everything out is better and would be slower by getting this
• Advanced Armors - no valid ege1 strategies
• Advanced Alloys - no valid age1 strategies
• Dust Dredger - maybe too good, due to buyouts, fine for age2

These seem like "backtracking traps," ie. required but not for age1

• Alchemist's Furnace
• Sewer System
  
  

The following seem more along the lines of "fix my start location"

• Mill Foundry - seems like mandatory start <.< due to how buyout is tied into completion
• Seed Storage - seems like mandatory 2nd pick, more workers = more everything = more city fixing
• Public Library - rarely built quickly, may even come close to turn 20
• Empire Mint - start fixed, but honestly seems more of a mandatory wide empire thing
  
  

Interesting ones,

• Center for Seas and Rivers - seems hard to integrate into strategies
• Language Square - definitely terrible as first-pick, not sure how much delay it
• Dawn Officer - fast conquest strats?
• Prisoners, Slaves & Volunteers - very hard to judge, it might be mandatory 3rd pick after getting +ind and +food but may also be mandatory 10th so that you can start expanding like crazy age 2; in combination with empire plan makes things cost 64g to buyout which is great and just kills any advantage you might have by going wide from the getgo.
  
  

Should not take trait slot,

• Open Pit Mine - the investment even with it researched is enormouse; benefit so longterm it's non-existent D:
  
  

No opinion, MAYBE'es that haven't experimented with enough,

• Search Party - doesn't seem to have significant effect; any point here slows down further research
• Advance Filigree - technically you can get this if you cant get any river stuff! but... its more of a faster pathing though research then anything

Suggestions



Move special armors up an age each. So Advanced Armors are age 2, and age 2 ones move to age 3 etc. Move weapons too. Keep accessories the same though! as those can be used by city heroes, and they do need them when you dont start with much else (ie. rivers, nice position, etc).



Make buyout dependent on something else like worker count. The amount shouldn't change as the progress goes up. Or at least make it so it's 100% till 70%, 70% for 25% onward, 50% when there's 10% left. This way industry isn't better then dust/buyout-techs when you aim to buyout things.



Replace Vaulter Open Pit Mine with Seed Storage or Center for Seas and Rivers or Language Square.

One thing on the rookery, though I have not tested it extensively. It seems that the earlier you check the heroes market, the cheaper they are. I can't tell you how cheap if you say make the rookery your very first tech, but I think there is a hidden factor in prioritizing that one,

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you for a moment on the Rookery. Having to force a decision between researching the tech or not factors into my early game strategy quite a bit, especially with the Broken Lords. Having to decide whether I want to keep a hero and home and another one out adventuring or if I will only have one or the other makes the investment a worthwhile decision. In a multiplayer game (whenever we get those) the extra hero unit in a battle could mean a world of difference, and if you keep your starting hero locked up in your city as opposed to someone who bought an extra one to bring out to play, it could great a serious dilemma for you.

SpaceTroll wrote:
Very fascinating and well organized thread guys. Thank you Propbuddha for that initiative! I would love to read what you guys think of the techs of the eras 2, 3 and 4

Caveat: 2nd, 3rd, and in particular 4th age techs have very straight upgrade feel to them so it doesn't really feel like you're making much of a choice. It feels like whatever "pattern" you went in age1 you have to stick to in the later ages. That said, here's my take. (I'll post age 3 and 4 when I have time)



Age 2



Why no research boosting stuff? It still says "science and industry" but where's the science? =P



The whole "worker mechanic" is honestly to the games detriment as turns go one. At the start for about 40-60 turns it's okeyish, but as you start to go on it just becomes too much "the city can't do anything with out you assigning workers." I have yet to experiment with optimal worker assignment but I think there should be overall more "city is flat out better" and less "here's something you can use only if you assign workers," or at least a 50:50 split between the two.



Not that good, super niche

• Armor's Guild, Mercenary Market, Conscription Center - should honestly be combined with each other to some extent since the COST of getting them, ie. 3 researches as well as a permanent research penalty essentially as they force further research to be slower just doesn't feel like it's worth it. Especially as Vaulters.
  
  

Should be age 3,

• Fish Farm (food per river) - too many "early game" benefits for rivers
• Stockpile (ind storage)
• Food storage (food storage)
  
  

Probably Okey

• Tech 2 special weapons
• Tech 2 special armors
• Forest Management (food per pop)
  
  
• Deep generator (Vaulter +10% everything) - feels kind of expensive though, given how fast vaulters research
  
  

Probably okey gameplay wise but feels wrong,

• Quarry (+1 ind for forests) - this seems just like a lot of dust stuff to just be "if you're faction X you like this; everyone else prolly not" <.<
• Mining Rights - same as above, if you dont have a ton if ind (ie. playing elfs) this feels like it's not adding much even though it's 30%; flat out +X non-% feels like it would be more attractive
  
  

Okey as-is

• Titan
• Meritrocic Promotion
• Tailor's Guild (+1 acc slot)
• Alchemic filigrie (lv2 accessories)
• Watch Towers
  
  

No opinion,

• Diplomatic Manse (aliances, etc)
  
  

nightbasilisk wrote:


Should not take trait slot,

• Open Pit Mine - the investment even with it researched is enormouse; benefit so longterm it's non-existent D:
  
  

I don't follow you here, OPM strikes me as worth it if: 1) I have more than one lux in my regions and/or 2) I have a lux that provides a good benefit that I want to utilize (ie, a good lux, they're not all created equal). Production costs don't seem that prohibitive so as to never get it.

lynxlynx wrote:


Tresure hunting - the probability of getting reward is good enought without this one. And it does not affect size of treasure nor makes it better. It would be nice if there was a chance of getting from goodiehuts minerals.

Hmm, I could have sworn this tech doubles dust from ruins.. Or am I confusing it with the hero ability?:P

Seek wrote:


Hmm, I could have sworn this tech doubles dust from ruins.. Or am I confusing it with the hero ability?:P

Maybe, there is a hreo skill altering that, and with Era chenge dust values.

I think that skills/treasure hunting only alter a chance, but this is high enought anyway, so there is no clear profit.

Seek wrote:
I don't follow you here, OPM strikes me as worth it if: 1) I have more than one lux in my regions and/or 2) I have a lux that provides a good benefit that I want to utilize (ie, a good lux, they're not all created equal). Production costs don't seem that prohibitive so as to never get it.

Am I missing a mechanic? Shouldn't it take at least 10 turns to even potentially get anything at all.

nightbasilisk wrote:
Am I missing a mechanic? Shouldn't it take at least 10 turns to even potentially get anything at all.

I suppose it depends on your science and production rates, 10 turns seems about right. The benefits of most luxuries are very powerful and in most cases make up for getting the tech and building the mine make up for the sidetracking (particularly since there are other techs more justifiably skipped in the first era) imo. It's situational, sure, OPM is not worth getting if all you have are emeralds (currently nonfunctional) or dye (of marginal use in the early game), but I'll take as much gold, wine and spice as I can.

Do these lists of tech priority reflect the starting tech of the factions? E.g. current alpha build Broken Lords start with Empire Mint so don't need to priortise insofar as - in a way - they already have!

Trithemius wrote:
Do these lists of tech priority reflect the starting tech of the factions? E.g. current alpha build Broken Lords start with Empire Mint so don't need to priortise insofar as - in a way - they already have!

I personally mention the ones I have (when I explained my Vaulter view) since I think it's important to note "how useful the free ones are" from your point of view as much as it is how useful the researched one are.



@Seek thanks, I'll look into gold, wine and spices. Maybe I just looked at the shitty ones. How long do bonuses last once activated?

Cheers nightbasilisk!