If a faction is regularly winning free-for-all multiplayer games that means it's mediocre or slightly above average in terms of power



Tall poppies get ganged early and cut down

archers in civ 5 do practically no damage to cities, making them useless for sieges. They get obliterated by cavalry. Their range is 2 until basically the 4th era. Line of sight, grounds, morale actually matter. Their defenses are horrible.





This game made a ranged unit with slightly better stats then melee AND have way more range then melee has movement, no problems with line of sight, ridiculously higher damage on counters, and no negative traits at all.

Dont play on small maps against WW all fixed ! :3



No but honestly if couple of industry more is really that game breaking then Amplitude should remove all anomalies because landing good set would mean victory no matter what.



Only problem I see with WW is that they are the only faction that has decent starting unit (their only good unit tho) but I would rather have Amplitude work on other factions units than changing WW.



WW are not OP they are little more RNG resistant than other factions that is why somewhat good players would lean toward using them than others because they are less of a gamble and ofc nobody would rush WW.

You don't necessarily rush the strongest faction first though. A variety of reasons could impact the decision of someone that would early game rush an opposing faction. One of these reasons is location. The faction could be extremely close to the player, or in a very good starting region, and the player wants to eliminate them early on because they are a threat. They are not a threat due to any faction traits, but to locations that are universally useful for every faction (probably except for the Broken Lords though). Another one of these reasons could be that due to the error of the player or AI in control of the faction, it could have been weakened, which could provoke a sudden assault by the player on them before they can recover. There are quite a few reasons why the faction rushed early on are not always the strongest faction.

moodandmind wrote:
Agreed, but it's the initial boost from the WW hero that causes a snowball effect. Wildwalkers are just as unbalanced in multiplayer as against AI. Other starting heroes, like the Broken Lords one, rely on starting in an area with river/sea tiles with proximity to good non food tiles. The Broken Lords hero could start out scouting for that configuration and waste multiple turns and still not find it. On the flipside, the WW hero always starts in ideal tiles (forest), and gets a 50% boost in production by being governor regardless. Add in the quick build of seed storage, and you've got an instant substantial lead that no other factions can come close to matching early game.



I've tested the starting Cultist hero, and it just doesn't compare for that jumpstart effect, as it has to level, and then only adds +1 per population. Although more versatile, it's still half of the WW hero boost, and comes many turns later. The WW player will put all population in industry and just build Seed Storage quickly to get extra food that initially outperforms the +1/pop food boost from Cultists.



Until this is fixed, for MP games I'll just have to host and specify that nobody can play Wild Walkers, as the other factions all seem relatively close in power compared to WW.

You don't understand how balance in free for all multiplayer games works.



Tall poppies get ganged early and cut down.



The mediocre and slightly above average choices win consistently because they're the strongest guys left over after the truly OP choices lose some early-midgame 1v6 battle.



The logic of the strongest faction or character winning the most games only applies to 1 vs 1 or team vs team multiplayer where the concept of desperate temporary alliances doesn't apply.



If the wild walkers are winning all the time they aren't that good, the ones who really need a nerf are the ones who get urgently rushed all the time.

Wild Walkers are strongest early when they can use their production bonus to expand quickly or rush a strong army early with their powerful Rangers. Mid-game these bonuses tend to even out as other factions tech up. Later in the game other faction's bonuses are more powerful.



I agree that the hero's ability (Industry Efficiency 2) is very powerful, especially early when you are usually putting a lot of Workers into production. A similar tech (Production Line, which gives +3 per worker) isn't available until Era 4.



I haven't seen anything (yet) to suggest they are strong enough to require banning from MP games, though...

synra wrote:
I'm not sure if this point has been made yet, but there's a big difference between OP for AI and OP for players. Windwalkers are somewhat OP for AI because of how terribly the AI tends to compose its armies in general: the pre-occupation with single units etc. Of course, if that single unit you are spamming is a 4+ range archer... things are going to be just fine.



I do like the Wind Walker governor tree, but I don't feel like it's particularly OP, especially not next to cultists. I often use Wind Walker governors to build up my smaller towns, as they give excellent static +x production mods that don't rely on having strong population or FIDSI yet. Once it's built up you can help out another town. But I never get more than one such governor, and there are generally better choices for towns that are already developed.

Agreed, but it's the initial boost from the WW hero that causes a snowball effect. Wildwalkers are just as unbalanced in multiplayer as against AI. Other starting heroes, like the Broken Lords one, rely on starting in an area with river/sea tiles with proximity to good non food tiles. The Broken Lords hero could start out scouting for that configuration and waste multiple turns and still not find it. On the flipside, the WW hero always starts in ideal tiles (forest), and gets a 50% boost in production by being governor regardless. Add in the quick build of seed storage, and you've got an instant substantial lead that no other factions can come close to matching early game.



I've tested the starting Cultist hero, and it just doesn't compare for that jumpstart effect, as it has to level, and then only adds +1 per population. Although more versatile, it's still half of the WW hero boost, and comes many turns later. The WW player will put all population in industry and just build Seed Storage quickly to get extra food that initially outperforms the +1/pop food boost from Cultists.



Until this is fixed, for MP games I'll just have to host and specify that nobody can play Wild Walkers, as the other factions all seem relatively close in power compared to WW.

I'm not sure if this point has been made yet, but there's a big difference between OP for AI and OP for players. Windwalkers are somewhat OP for AI because of how terribly the AI tends to compose its armies in general: the pre-occupation with single units etc. Of course, if that single unit you are spamming is a 4+ range archer... things are going to be just fine.



I do like the Wind Walker governor tree, but I don't feel like it's particularly OP, especially not next to cultists. I often use Wind Walker governors to build up my smaller towns, as they give excellent static +x production mods that don't rely on having strong population or FIDSI yet. Once it's built up you can help out another town. But I never get more than one such governor, and there are generally better choices for towns that are already developed.

EcthelionHelm wrote:
A lot of your complaint seems to boil down to the +2 industry/pop WW starting hero skill is too op early, as it provides a nearly 50% industry bonus.



This is true, but isn't really a problem with WW as much as heroes default skills as a whole.

Mages start hero comes with damage boost 3 - giving them a huge bonus in early to mid game fighting. Other heroes come with absurd indutry / food city boost combos even at level 1.



Really, heroes should either have their starting skills removed, weakened, or changed to scaling (more powerful as hero levels up, instead of giving a a 50% damage or industry boost at level 1).

The heroes you're referring to with food/industry boost (there are 2) also need to be nerfed but those are marketplace heroes and not starting heroes. I don't agree that Mage damage boost is equal to 50% industry boost in terms of head start, unless you do a rush Zerg.

A lot of your complaint seems to boil down to the +2 industry/pop WW starting hero skill is too op early, as it provides a nearly 50% industry bonus.



This is true, but isn't really a problem with WW as much as heroes default skills as a whole.

Mages start hero comes with damage boost 3 - giving them a huge bonus in early to mid game fighting. Other heroes come with absurd indutry / food city boost combos even at level 1.



Really, heroes should either have their starting skills removed, weakened, or changed to scaling (more powerful as hero levels up, instead of giving a a 50% damage or industry boost at level 1).

I agree with a lot of what you've said OP. There's still a lot of balancing to be done. I don't know though whether the best thing is to nerf the Wild Walkers or improve on some of the other factions. I'm thinking the latter.



I personally think ranged classes are a little too overpowered at the moment. In games I find myself primarily making ranged units with high initiative because there really isn't much reason to build melee units. They really need to make melee units more viable in game. A mechanic that prevents ranged units from using their ranged attacks if they are engaged (similar to the mechanic in AOW 3) would be good (ie. they have to resort to a melee attack if there's a melee unit next to them).

After playing quite a few multiplayer games, I noticed consistently that good players would tend to always run away with the game using Wild Walkers (double everyone's score - with other players at around 200 they were 400).



I finally asked one of the better players his secret, and he told me that Wild Walkers, especially the starting hero as governor, is simply overpowered.



The starting Wild Walkers hero gives +2 per population production in the city. No other starting hero gives a boost to production like this. Other starting heroes at most give +2 to gold (Roving Clans and Broken Lords). Although the +2 to gold for Broken Lords is decent, in my subsequent tests, it does not compare to +2 to production for a leg up in the game, as it amounts to a boost of 50% to production which scales as population increases.



As a comparison, the Necrophage starting hero gets slavery, which is very good, but relies on getting at least two pacified villages to be as effective. Since Necros can't get Parlay, it's going to be quite a while into the game to get those two pacified villages, not to mention that starting regions only ever have 1 village factions (I think).



In addition to this, Wild Walkers also get arguably the best starting unit in the game, the Ranger, with its 4 range, high initiative and damage. It's already been noted in the community that range is overpowered.



I would also argue that the Wild Walkers ability to see the location of all enemy armies, including roaming armies to avoid landing scouting unit in range of them, is probably the best faction power in the game, or at least adds a very useful edge to the rest of the Wild Walkers advantages. As comparison, the roving clans ability to move cities is pretty much useless unless you place your city someplace less than optimal and then find a slightly better spot nearby after scouting.



Finally, the boost of +1 industry in forest for Wild Walkers, and the fact that they are always put in or near heavily forested tiles, adds to this advantage. The tech which results in boosted production in forests only adds to this. There are hero abilities and techs which give good rewards for building on rivers and lakes, but in my tests it cannot be relied upon to be anywhere near water for any faction with the starting hero/settler.



I'm not saying that other factions don't also have balancing issues that need addressing as I've heard that Broken Lords, if played in a perfect style, can eventually be very powerful. However, in my tests, it is very difficult to get Broken Lords to 400 score when other competent players are around 200, whereas this is always doable with Wild Walkers.



Thanks ahead of time for your attention to this currently game breaking balance issue.

moodandmind wrote:
Well, I am agreeing with you in that sense. I really don't care if they nerf WW or boost the other factions, but something needs to be done as it's not just me, I never see any other players able to keep pace with good Wild Walkers players. It's not an exploit like with Roving Clans, it's an overall balance issue from a combination of the factors listed above.

No argument there.

Nasarog wrote:
No. I am talking about increasing the power levels of the other factions to match the two/three strong factions, not the other way around. Using you circular logic, I could say that you are supporting my point. Having said that, I think it's irrelevant. What needs to happen is a global balance pass. We as a community need to decide how we want the game as a whole to play. If you nerf the WW, you can potentially slow the whole game down. Or do you want the others to catch up to them to speed the game up. Do you see what I mean?

Well, I am agreeing with you in that sense. I really don't care if they nerf WW or boost the other factions, but something needs to be done as it's not just me, I never see any other players able to keep pace with good Wild Walkers players. It's not an exploit like with Roving Clans, it's an overall balance issue from a combination of the factors listed above.

moodandmind wrote:
I'll add one more benefit I forgot for the WW. Starting with Seed Production unlocked. As compared to the Cultists for instance who have two city defense techs unlocked which are not even remotely as useful. Seed Production is probably the best already unlocked tech for any faction.



Nasarog, I think you are just arguing semantics. If other factions are underpowered compared to the Wild Walkers, by definition that makes them overpowered (at the moment) and thus you're agreeing with me.

No. I am talking about increasing the power levels of the other factions to match the two/three strong factions, not the other way around. Using you circular logic, I could say that you are supporting my point. Having said that, I think it's irrelevant. What needs to happen is a global balance pass. We as a community need to decide how we want the game as a whole to play. If you nerf the WW, you can potentially slow the whole game down. Or do you want the others to catch up to them to speed the game up. Do you see what I mean?

I'm just saying that I never see another faction at double everyone else's score 30 minutes into the game besides Wild Walkers. They will have twice the number of cities, twice the military unit producing capacity, etc. I do agree that Vaulters teleportation is very good, but their starting hero has nowhere near the expansion boosting ability of the WW starting hero. Vaulters hero gives a boost to science as Governor, and Vaulters simply don't need more science at the beginning of the game, because of their +1 to science tile boost, and always starting in science heavy tile areas (which are also often short on production/food). More science which just result in researching much faster than production can keep pace with, so making the starting Vaulters hero governor is never a good idea early on.

Wild Walkers are really not OP.



Roving Clan is completely broken, allowing for so many exploits, but that really does need you using the exploits, which is possible if you know how. Those are already reported and will hopefully be fixed somehow.



Ardent Mages have by far the best ranged unit, with aoe attacks and aoe stuns, they will wipe your army, unless you have 2-5x their army size, depending on your tech advantage, if you have any considering you're playing against Ardent Mages, who have by far the highest natural science boost from all races. (Hero + Pillars)



Necro/Cultists can field a large army that can overrun you. That's something else that might have to be looked into.



Broken Lords the vanilla faction is quite weak, it needs a custom faction with the dust boosts, slap a mercenary comforts on top of that. And you will have a BL merc army rush game. Which is just a rush tactic, and can be beaten, I don't see balancing issues in this, I think BL is one of the weaker factions tbh, compared to the combos you can get with other factions.





Edit

moodandmind wrote:
I'll add one more benefit I forgot for the WW. Starting with Seed Production unlocked. As compared to the Cultists for instance who have two city defense techs unlocked which are not even remotely as useful. Seed Production is probably the best already unlocked tech for any faction.



Nasarog, I think you are just arguing semantics. If other factions are underpowered compared to the Wild Walkers, by definition that makes them overpowered (at the moment) and thus you're agreeing with me.

Not really, Seed is usually number 2-4 on my tech list, it's too situational as it depends where you start. But you usually never get Seed before production. It's usually production then food then science, but again there are edges where you need to change the order.

I'll add one more benefit I forgot for the WW. Starting with Seed Production unlocked. As compared to the Cultists for instance who have two city defense techs unlocked which are not even remotely as useful. Seed Production is probably the best already unlocked tech for any faction.



Nasarog, I think you are just arguing semantics. If other factions are underpowered compared to the Wild Walkers, by definition that makes them overpowered (at the moment) and thus you're agreeing with me.

moodandmind wrote:
Nasarog, your statement confuses me. If there's no balance there at the moment, isn't that what makes Wild Walkers overpowered given the examples provided? At the very least, I think the WW starting hero needs to be nerfed to +1 production per pop which still amounts to a 25% increase in production from population compared to all other factions.

No, it makes them unbalanced. It makes some of the other factions UP I suppose. I hope that instead of nerfing WW, they would continue to balance the game. The WW are one of 2 factions (Vaulters) that's actually a well balanced faction across the whole spectrum (economy/research/military/diplomacy). Do you see what I mean? People abusing them in MP doesn't make them OP per se.



Once the real faction balancing begins, then we'll see where all the factions stand. At the moment, and I really hate to admit this, but the Vaulters teleportation makes them the most powerful faction by a longshot, and as much as I love them for it, they are too strong especially at the hight of winter in the late game.

Nasarog, your statement confuses me. If there's no balance there at the moment, isn't that what makes Wild Walkers overpowered given the examples provided? At the very least, I think the WW starting hero needs to be nerfed to +1 production per pop which still amounts to a 25% increase in production from population compared to all other factions.