@VieuxChat

That's the thing though, the bonus you get is in excess of what you need to crush the others. Apart from perhaps Serum of Iteru, you don't even need the other techs to crush your opponents at that stage of the game. These techs are more of an... aesthetic choice, if that makes sense. One 100% boost for each of the FIDSI resources, just because it seems to be in theme.

I think era 6 technologies should be more... exotic. Perhaps the ability to sacrifice (raze/disband) your own cities or units, for some major boosts in resources or stats for those cities or units that remain. Perhaps the ability to research and build a superweapon. These are just some examples.



@Ulto

Endless winter already exists in the game, it just takes a very long time to get there...

martink wrote:
The level 6 +X% resource techs do have a place in the game. But they shouldn't be the only choice, and they should maybe even be a bit underpowered to encourage more interesting gameplay.



(

Sure, that's a possibility.

martink wrote:


(Diplomacy bonus)



The idea of the Diplomacy level 6 tech is that it allows you to break your faction limitations. In the very last moment, Necrophages can overcome their aversion to an alliance against a larger enemy and Roving Bands can go to war. The endgame gets more interesting when a few assumptions are thrown out the window.

I don't think you understand the lore.



Necrophages don't have an aversion to diplomacy. They have no need of it. They don't want it. To them, all the other factions are either food, sources of genetic material, or incubation chambers. That's it. What need have they for diplomacy?



The Roving Clans are business people though and through. They can't declare war because they lose their neutral standing and stop being business people.



These aren't assumptions, they're at their core. That's what makes this game unique. What you are describing is a civ-like play style. If I want to play civ, I will. I have... I do!

martink wrote:




(Combat bonus to small armies of 1-3 units)



The idea is to grant the bonus if you send a very small force against a full army. If you can send two fully maxed out units alone against the main force of the enemy, then you deserve that victory.

Except, this won't benefit the AI at all. This will destroy them. The AI has a hard time properly gauging threat. It's not too good at equipping and changing the composition of it's armies. This will cripple the AI completely.

martink wrote:


(Assimilate small faction)



Of course, this has to be tweaked in a way that Cultists are still special and better at this.

Agreed, but not sure how it could be done. The Cultists were finally added to the game right before release, and it gave them a massive headache. They still throw darts at Nosferatiel' picture in the office.



Your ideas aren't bad, actually some of them are good. I have lots and lots of those too, I have shared them many times, but our ideas are hard to implement. Also try to learn the lore of the factions so that your ideas line up with them... It makes things more interesting.

The level 6 +X% resource techs do have a place in the game. But they shouldn't be the only choice, and they should maybe even be a bit underpowered to encourage more interesting gameplay.



(Diplomacy bonus)

Nasarog wrote:
Except Necrophages that can't and Cultists that shouldn't since they are seeking the end of the world.

The idea of the Diplomacy level 6 tech is that it allows you to break your faction limitations. In the very last moment, Necrophages can overcome their aversion to an alliance against a larger enemy and Roving Bands can go to war. The endgame gets more interesting when a few assumptions are thrown out the window.



(Combat bonus to small armies of 1-3 units)

Nasarog wrote:
Absolutely not. I would break my 8 unit armies into two unit armies led by a maxed out hero with lvl 10 veteran units. Yea, it would suck for my opponent.

The idea is to grant the bonus if you send a very small force against a full army. If you can send two fully maxed out units alone against the main force of the enemy, then you deserve that victory.



(Assimilate small faction)

Nasarog wrote:
Okay that could be cool, except the Cultists already do this to an extent.

Of course, this has to be tweaked in a way that Cultists are still special and better at this.

martink wrote:
I love the ideas here. Creating a good end game in a 4X game is hard - usually one faction has the dominant upper hand, and just walks across the finish line. Ideally, you have 2-3 closely matched factions, and either an all-out war to decide the final score OR a photo finish to fulfill the victory condition.



One issue is that with some effects you favor one strategy over another. If towards the end, all diplomatic relations deteriorate and everyone gets massive combat bonuses, warmongers are going to win the game and diplomatic victory becomes impossible.

Very true.

martink wrote:




- High level gear starts having serious drawbacks. What if too much glassteel has a chance of making a unit go berserk?

This is not high level gear at the end of the game, but I get your idea. I don't like it...

martink wrote:


- Disrupt trade routes. Large empires will have the longest ones.



-

True, but it should be handled by the winter. It sort of already is. The problem is that by the end of the game, this wouldn't matter. Trade routes don't count towards the victory score.

martink wrote:




- Spread of disease. Large, sprawling cities have a chance of generating a disease, which then spreads across trade routes to the next large city. Small, unconnected cities (losers) have a much lower chance to be affected. (This will cause the above point, as each faction races to close their borders and avoid being affected).

They have something like this planned, random events. it will probably happen in a free add-on.

martink wrote:


- Completely revamp Level 6 techs

Yes, the level 6 techs are okay at best, but they are soulless and boring.They feel like a spreadsheet.

martink wrote:










* Omniscience. Completely remove fog of war, see the entire map and all units and cities. (This helps small factions, winners will know the entire map by now anyway)

At the end of the game, I don't care about this much.

martink wrote:








* Destiny to Lead. Half all diplomacy costs and make other factions more likely to agree to deals, even if they are bad for them (move the cutoff bar 25% to the left). This also removes all faction penalties to diplomacy (no war, no peace). Hey, it's the endgame! - Helps small factions to unite against #1

Except Necrophages that can't and Cultists that shouldn't since they are seeking the end of the world.

martink wrote:






* The Last Stand. Small armies get a big bonuses against large armies. Single units get +100% attack, damage, health. Armies of 2 units get +50%. Armies of 3 get +25%. Armies of 4 or larget get nothing. (This helps small factions!)

Absolutely not. I would break my 8 unit armies into two unit armies led by a maxed out hero with lvl 10 veteran units. Yea, it would suck for my opponent.

martink wrote:








* Vision of Unity. Automatically assimilate all minor factions in territories controlled by you.

Okay that could be cool, except the Cultists already do this to an extent.

martink wrote:






* Fin de Siecle. Happiness in cities can go over 100%. Multiply all outputs by the happiness score. That is, if you have 110% happiness, your city produces +10% everything. Again, this benefits small factions who don't take ginormous expansion penalties.

By the end of the game, my cities are way above 100% happiness. I utilize a lot of level 2 districted cities and I use every single luxury resource I can.



You have some interesting ideas, but the only was a small faction stands a chance to win besides a science win (very unlikely since Ai will turn all their cities to science), is to capture capitols... and that's if they survive this long.



Keep it up though... you had some interesting ideas.

I love the ideas here. Creating a good end game in a 4X game is hard - usually one faction has the dominant upper hand, and just walks across the finish line. Ideally, you have 2-3 closely matched factions, and either an all-out war to decide the final score OR a photo finish to fulfill the victory condition.



One issue is that with some effects you favor one strategy over another. If towards the end, all diplomatic relations deteriorate and everyone gets massive combat bonuses, warmongers are going to win the game and diplomatic victory becomes impossible.



The idea of bonuses and effects that favor small / losing players is very good. It's hard to do without meta-gaming though. Your score should not have an in-game effect.



Some ideas:

- High level gear starts having serious drawbacks. What if too much glassteel has a chance of making a unit go berserk?



- Disrupt trade routes. Large empires will have the longest ones.



- Spread of disease. Large, sprawling cities have a chance of generating a disease, which then spreads across trade routes to the next large city. Small, unconnected cities (losers) have a much lower chance to be affected. (This will cause the above point, as each faction races to close their borders and avoid being affected).



- Completely revamp Level 6 techs



* No FIDSI bonuses. Seriously, if you are already winning the game, you probably have the highest output in everything anyway. Getting +100% to something in the last turns only ever serves to make the endgame a boring cakewalk (if it isn't already anyway).



Instead, give "game-breaking" abilities. Stuff that really makes a difference in the game play, but it's not "more of stuff", but enabling new options. Here are some rough ideas:



* Omniscience. Completely remove fog of war, see the entire map and all units and cities. (This helps small factions, winners will know the entire map by now anyway)



* Destiny to Lead. Half all diplomacy costs and make other factions more likely to agree to deals, even if they are bad for them (move the cutoff bar 25% to the left). This also removes all faction penalties to diplomacy (no war, no peace). Hey, it's the endgame! - Helps small factions to unite against #1



* The Last Stand. Small armies get a big bonuses against large armies. Single units get +100% attack, damage, health. Armies of 2 units get +50%. Armies of 3 get +25%. Armies of 4 or larget get nothing. (This helps small factions!)



* Vision of Unity. Automatically assimilate all minor factions in territories controlled by you.



* Fin de Siecle. Happiness in cities can go over 100%. Multiply all outputs by the happiness score. That is, if you have 110% happiness, your city produces +10% everything. Again, this benefits small factions who don't take ginormous expansion penalties.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
I agree that era 6 is not as exciting as it should be. the +100% bonuses are really powerful, but terribly uninspiring.

I would rather see technologies that give us additional options to crush our enemies, instead of just increasing what the leading player is already good at. However, I can't think of anything that would be reasonably easy to implement.



I do believe it may be possible to trigger a quest that keeps on spawning powerful neutral armies, representing the minor factions desperately clawing for survival.

Since they now have a a holiday specific hero, how about a Cultist hero quest line where one rises to defend the minors from the fate the cultists have in store for them....

I agree that era 6 is not as exciting as it should be. the +100% bonuses are really powerful, but terribly uninspiring.

I would rather see technologies that give us additional options to crush our enemies, instead of just increasing what the leading player is already good at. However, I can't think of anything that would be reasonably easy to implement.



I do believe it may be possible to trigger a quest that keeps on spawning powerful neutral armies, representing the minor factions desperately clawing for survival.

Tigregalis wrote:
@Ulto

Endless winter already exists in the game, it just takes a very long time to get there...

Really, it does ?

I have never played a game after round 200, AI usually reach scientific victory by 120-150.

I agree that era 6 is incredibly boring, and needs a rework.



I totally disagree with your proposed solution. Trying to enforce your narrative of end of ages by having everyone declare war on eachother with free units and endless winter? I know its supposed to be 'epic' but it just sounds really dumb.

VieuxChat wrote:
Excellent idea.. But it could start way before era 6. It could be tied to winter effects. Every time a winter stops, some lingering effects will start (like the + flat dust that would get an exponential increase). It can be done through questis while giving the players an automatic win and giving those bonuses/maluses to everyone. Maybe I'll try to mod something lik ehtat simple, then see if I could enhance it.



The fierceness of those bonus/maluses would be tied to the "max" era (The era of the most advanced player). So instead of "playing as usual >>>>>> Oh my god ! It's era 6" it would be "Playing as usual >>> it's era 3 already 1 winter, things start getting tough > it's era 3 already 3 winters things get awry, need to heavily use diplomacy > it's era 4, 6 winters and my units are waging fierce wars > it's era 5, how did I survive up until now ? > it's era 6, I win now or I'll be crushed"



Add to that threats that spawn on winter (I think I can do it with the quests) and you have an epic game.

While I admit that waiting until era 6 to reveal the epicness means that eras 4 and 5 are relatively lame... but at the same time I also believe that the transition from era 5 to era 6 should be really, really significant. What I wish for is era 6 giving people chills. Making them think that they entered a whole new level of game they've been working so hard to get to before.



It's like roller coaster. You don't get most excited/terrified when you're just going down on an increasingly steeper track. But you do when there's a sudden drop and from relative calmness you're thrown into absolute chaos ^_^

Almost all of those bonuses (food boost, dust boost, industry boost, influence boost, even science boost) are fairly worthless at the "end" of the game, considering how much production you already have at that point in the game - an extra 100% modifier is just excessive.

I don't fully agree. There were times when those boosts are what finally tipped me over some invisible point where I was able to turn from one of the leading players into THE leading player.



And I'm not actually talking about the serum... I'm talking about science boost :3 After that I was able to get the remaining techs very quickly and pull my empire ahead.



But yeah, extra 100% or really is useless.

Great idea. The first game I played (although it was on normal) was a cakewalk and fizzled out, which is a problem I see in many 4x games. once your empire gets too large, its not worth playing any more. I won by scientific victory, taking only one turn for each of the techs.



The next game I played as Broken lords on Serious. It was great fun, and I thought the right level of difficulty for me. It was an uphill battle/challenge the whole way. In the end, the Necropages and I were roughly equal in terms of unit strength and empire size, although they had more units than I did. It was great fun holding the front line and making a push in the north, honestly the most fun I've had in a 4x outside of co-op. But, then they got the +200% damage tech and gained the ability to one-shot anything I had, which killed the fun. What could have been an epic struggle just fizzled out that way, and I left feeling disappointed. I suppose it is my fault for being too leisurely with my research. (Is there a way to see where other players are at with research?)



I think the end game needs some improvement, anyway, but N = 2 so I guess I can't really talk.

Any of you who have played Endless Space since it's release are probably aware that when it comes to add-ons, Amplitude certainly delivers. It's only a matter of time before new content is created for Endless Legend that improves the current formula.



As such, it's a good idea to discuss as many of the requested changes and/or additions as possible and give the developers an idea of what we like. I've seen threads about espionage, about faction immersion, about more interesting winters and so on... but I don't think I've seen a thread dedicated purely to last (sixth) era of the game. So I decided to post one myself.







You should recognize it. It's when you suddenly hear the epic track titled "Last Era" play in-game. It's when you gain access to 6 game-ending technologies. It's when you're about to win or lose it all.



It's when nothing happens.



When I entered era 6 for the first time I was pumped, ready for action and had a big evil grin on my face. I was ready for epicness that never came. I just won the game. In all my games, only once I experienced sustained feeling of epicness throughout the entirety of era 6, as I entered it around the same time as one other player who was equal to me in power. Now that was a struggle worthy of remembering but... it only happened once.



So I thought about it and prepared a list of suggestions that could make the Last Era mean something more then it does now. In my suggestions I made sure to stay away from ideas that are too radical or too difficult to implement. So no meteorite showers, sorry



[HR][/HR]



I based all suggestions around the idea that once the first player enters the last era, then all players experience these gameplay changes. So the shift in game dynamic is felt globally.

As a result, all people should be notified whenever somebody enters the sixth era. Or at least when the first player does.



List of contents:[LIST=1]

Flat bonus to ALL players

Increased unit attack & damage based on score

Lowered luxury and strategic resource generation

Countdown to endless winter

Significant increase in settler cost

Damage over time on ALL units

Free declaration of war on non-allies

(maybe) lower unit cost

(maybe) New short quest series for all players

[/LIST]



[HR][/HR]

1) Flat bonus to ALL players:

[/B]



Here's the idea: first player enters last era, he gets to see the artwork of some apocalyptic tornado, epic music is played and things are about to happen. Auriga is dying. How? I do not know but it probably involves dust.



Giving all players a flat (in other words: non-scalable) bonus to dust generation is logical from the lore standpoint but it also makes the gameplay more dynamic. Let's say that the bonus is extra 1000 per turn for all players (obviously, the nunmber is subject to balance changes). It may not mean much for some empires but underdogs will be ecstatic to have their economy uplifted to a level where they become meaningful again and can finally support a decent army without making huge sacrifices.



A flat extra 1k per turn is small change for the leading player but can significantly improve the gameplay experience for weaker players. Additionally, since the bonus is exactly the same for everyone, it doesn't break the balance of the game. It just makes it more dynamic.

2) Increased unit attack & damage based on score

Simple idea: the world is ending. By the time the first player reaches era six, every empire should be aware of that. What do people do when they are backed to a corner and they feel like their salvation might be taken away by somebody else? They fight. Fiercly.



My suggestion is to give every unit a scaled bonus to its damage and attack based on the player's score. The lower the score, the higher the bonus. The leading player gets nothing but the last player gets a whooping +50% attack and damage (again, those values are obviously subject to change).



This reflects the desperation of people who see no other way to save themselves other then to kill. It's also an interesting shift in game dynamics - leading players now enter a horde mode/fall of Rome scenario, where the losing players are the horde/barbarians.

3) Lowered luxury and strategic resource generation

I don't know how long each turn lasts on Auriga. What I do know is that Auriga has been heavily exploited before and that the current civilisations also do their best to strip it down from its resources. But they're bound to run out one day, right?



By lowering the income of strategic and luxury resource, we increase the strategic importance of the regions that contain them. Additionally, this forces players to save their resources in earlier eras before someone enters era 6. It's an added element of planning and preparation and I believe that EL could benefit from that.



The dynamic of the game shouldn't be affected too much. Yes, you can't equip your mithrite weapons on all your units anymore but you can still use that bonus and give them good dust equipment.

4) Countdown to endless winter

I won't discuss this too heavily because there are other threads for that. However, I think it would be interesting if endless winter was a scripted event that happens X turns (or 2/3 regular winters) after first player enters the last era. It would add to the endgame drama and force all players to take drastic actions and win quickly before neverending winter comes and the demise of Auriga starts.

5) Significant increase in settler cost

I find it mildly annoying when in late game players sometimes just spam new cities. It goes against the game dynamic and such cities take too long too capture, even if you only need one unit for each one. Additionally, it makes no sense.



When the end times come, the last thing people will think about is "oh, maybe I should move my clan/family/slaves/subordinates/pugs/etc to that hill over there. It has GREAT view of the enclosing glaciers that are about to cover this whole planet". Settlers should be significantly more expensive after the first player reaches era 6. It's the apocalypse, people!



Settlers in late game do little but slow the game down and hurt the overall dynamic. You had 5 era to prepare your mighty empire. Now's the time to see if you did a good job.

6) Damage over time on ALL units

I'm talking about something fairly mild, like -5% of max hp per turn. In most cases, this will just lower the rate at which units heal instead of actually killing them (BL are the exception but since they benefit the most from extra +1k dust then I think it's ok).



It makes sense. Whatever makes Auriga die, certainly also has some impact on the living creatures that inhabit it. It also fits the new dynamic quite nicely. Yes, your units fight fiercly. But it's do or die, kill or be killed. If you want to be a warmonger (or defend against one) in endgame then you need to commit!



No more unkillable elite armies and cities that are never forced to produce units. It's time to start the war factories... or risk it all and rush other victory type, hoping you won't get killed too quickly.

7) Free declaration of war on non-allies

Even the nicest people can become quite nasty when facing almost certain extinciton. It's every faction for itself in the last era, the time when friendships mean nothing. The only casus belli you need is the scorched sky above you and monstrous tornadoes around you.



Again, removing the cost for wat delcaration is meant to change the dynamic of the game. I've seen too many peaceful game endings in EL. And while it's cool that they exist, I think it won't hurt to spice things up a little bit with a massive game-ending war. Let the warmongers have their fun. And see how much that alliance you built is really worth.

8) (maybe) Lower unit cost

I thikn that the changes listed above are enough to shift the dynamic of the endgame and make it feel more epic. However, lowering the unit production/dust cost for all players could make it feel even more dramatic.



The issue I have with this idea is that it feels a bit unrealistic and forced. Additionally, combined with the previous ideas, it promotes warmongers a bit too much.

9) (maybe) New short quest series for all players

One player gets to era 6 and a new questline opens up for all players, related to their efforts in either saving Auriga or leaving it to die. I'm sure you all have plenty if ideas on how those quests could be constructed in a way that fits the main storyline. The only idea I want so share is this: if the majority of players successfully finishes these new quests, then Auriga is saved and the endless winter doesn't come after all.



I'm not too sure if it's a good idea though. Endless winter is an interesting threat unique to EL so getting rid of it seems a bit lame. Still, it's something to consider.



[HR][/HR]



That's all. Did you make it all the way through my wall of text? lol Sorry for writing so much but I love this game and keep thinking about possible way to improve it. Let me know what you think about the infamous Last Era and my post in general!

Endless winter looks great, otherwise I don't know.

The era6 technologies are meant to be game ender, once you got them you should be able to crush those that don't have them. But clrealy, I agree they are missing the epicness factor.

Tigregalis wrote:
On that topic, era 6 really is crap. Almost all of those bonuses (food boost, dust boost, industry boost, influence boost, even science boost) are fairly worthless at the "end" of the game, considering how much production you already have at that point in the game - an extra 100% modifier is just excessive. Your cities are big enough that you don't need more food. You don't have much to spend dust on except units. You've built just about everything already, except units, but then you can buy half of those out with dust anyway. Influence is utterly useless late in the game, except maybe if you've got heaps of cities and you're struggling to max out the empire plan. And how much good will a science boost do you when you've only got a handful of techs left to research? Really, apart from quest rewards, the only good era 6 tech is Serum of Iteru (+100% damage, +100% life). The rest of the boosts seem like something you wish you had earlier.

Yup, and even that 100% bonus to health/damage is pretty meaningless by then. I play on normal speed. I might need to try a game or two on fast to see if there is a difference.

Nasarog wrote:
era 6 is crap.

On that topic, era 6 really is crap. Almost all of those bonuses (food boost, dust boost, industry boost, influence boost, even science boost) are fairly worthless at the "end" of the game, considering how much production you already have at that point in the game - an extra 100% modifier is just excessive. Your cities are big enough that you don't need more food. You don't have much to spend dust on except units. You've built just about everything already, except units, but then you can buy half of those out with dust anyway. Influence is utterly useless late in the game, except maybe if you've got heaps of cities and you're struggling to max out the empire plan. And how much good will a science boost do you when you've only got a handful of techs left to research? Really, apart from quest rewards, the only good era 6 tech is Serum of Iteru (+100% damage, +100% life). The rest of the boosts seem like something you wish you had earlier.

VieuxChat wrote:
A 4th über unit wouldn't be enough to bring back the "oummmph" effect the 150+ turns need (playing on normal speed).

true, but it gives life to the 6th era. In 140 hours, I haven't been able to make a meaningful dent. Era 5 is not bad, but era 6 is crap.

A 4th über unit wouldn't be enough to bring back the "oummmph" effect the 150+ turns need (playing on normal speed).

Last era needs a 4rth Unit... a super unit!!!!



There, my contribution!

Excellent idea.. But it could start way before era 6. It could be tied to winter effects. Every time a winter stops, some lingering effects will start (like the + flat dust that would get an exponential increase). It can be done through questis while giving the players an automatic win and giving those bonuses/maluses to everyone. Maybe I'll try to mod something lik ehtat simple, then see if I could enhance it.



The fierceness of those bonus/maluses would be tied to the "max" era (The era of the most advanced player). So instead of "playing as usual >>>>>> Oh my god ! It's era 6" it would be "Playing as usual >>> it's era 3 already 1 winter, things start getting tough > it's era 3 already 3 winters things get awry, need to heavily use diplomacy > it's era 4, 6 winters and my units are waging fierce wars > it's era 5, how did I survive up until now ? > it's era 6, I win now or I'll be crushed"



Add to that threats that spawn on winter (I think I can do it with the quests) and you have an epic game.