Hello.



Very nices ideas here!



1 - Personnaly, to keep that as simple as possible, I would keep the actual tactical system and 3D ship models we have on the strategical map, and the insta-build by units on the coast.

1b - When a tactical naval combat start, 1 unit = 1 ship in the tactical screen, the same for all units of a faction. Each faction have only one sort of ship unit.



1c - "Antique" battles where essentially about ram hit each other. rangeds ground units packed on the ship where not very usefull on a closed batlle ship with a roof deck. The actual embarked unit gear or type could have no or marginal influence on the ship capabilities (so, keep no influence at all for our purposes)



2- This ship unit can be geared/retroffited like a normal unit via the military panel: adamantium ram... ^^ for a "small standard" cost (maybe related to number of cities?).



3- But it's essencially a glass canon and "ramming" battles (each faction can have a special feature for diversity: like, a ranged attack for wind-walkers ^^ or decay ships for necro)



So, in that case, the work is on balancing the ship attributes between factions and the costs of retrofiting.



4- For more diversity, you can imagine tech or era related sort of ships that replace our standard faction ship: catapult for era 3 by example?



2,3,4 are optional, for more diversity. The main idea here is "one ship by faction unit: a glasscanon rammer". It's just intended to solve the "I can't attack this unit on the sea!" problem whith a nice feature.

I don't see any problem regarding units "walking on water" during a combat. Just place them over a surf board . All of combat is already something strange, anyway: suddenly you "discover" a lot of tiles that you shouldn't see, and can move a lot of tiles more than what your army is allowed to... It's part of the endless legend "charm" (or not)... And you can send an arrow 4 tiles across... It is already unrealistic to a flaw... But we simply accept it...



That is why I proposed this solution, that is a third option to the ones shown, and that appear to be much simpler to implement and follows the actual endless legend combat spirit. /#/endless-legend/forum/6-game-design/thread/3563-naval-warfare-should-it-be-implemented-and-how

For sea battles there are 2 solutions:

1) the Battle takes place similarly to the ground – fixed area units appear and attack.

2) Cells that are involved in the battle are only the ships.



The first option has a significant problem: how to display a sea battle? Ground battle on the same map, on which are situated the towns, armies and so on. If you grant a naval battle on the same map, where to place the units? They suddenly walk on water? And if you give them the vehicle, how to combine ship for combat with vehicles on the global map, and in addition, in a small Bay of the ship will cross the earth?

But if this problem will be solved, here is my suggestion. There is a abordage. To ship out units and fight. See illustration:







The second option is more convenient for the development and visualization. When you implement a battle only with ships on the global map (without generating special battlefield), I propose to base the initiative units. The higher the initiative, the higher unit in the queue on the exchange of blows (blows can be illustrated by shots of the ship's cannons, ballistas, musket, - is the choice of developers).

Strikes are at the same time. There are no buffs or debuffs on units, no "retaliatory attacks", there is no morality. Just punch unit, without any effects.



First in the queue on the exchange of blows – the attacker and the attacked ships. All the units of the other ships involved in the battle is considered to be equivalent to the right of the sequence (i.e., for them, there is a General rule – with the highest initiative – at the top of the list).

If one of the parties, all units involved in the battle, already exchanged blows and were not involved units, then fresh units are attacking unilaterally side with ended units (the principle of priority does not change – the first attack unit with the highest initiative from the attacker or the attacked ship):







Example. Fraction A is attacking with 3 ships.

Ship №1a (6 units and hero) attack ship fraction B №1b (guardian). In the battle as ships take part: 2a (6 units and hero), 3a (4 units), 2b (8 units and hero).



This way naval battles are simple and logical, and not very expensive in relation to efforts to develop. In the course of the battle cannot be influenced, so it is easier to include autofight; however, it is possible to view the battle – each attack will look like an exchange of blows between the icons of the ships and units:









The shock does not change the combat characteristics of unit – including if, exchanging blows, the unit came under a unilateral strike (as a result of the preponderance in the number of units the enemy). Of course, there is no circular attacks, rays, and the like.

When all of the units that attacked the naval battle is over. Naval battles should not replace the ground, and it will be convenient for the game, if the number of deaths of sea battles will be lower.

Yours propositions are interesting and simples.

Naval battles in exactly the same spirit as land battles: no new units



It just downed on me that we can make an interesting way to make naval battles , without resorting to the creation of any new units:



1) When an empire reaches the Shipyard technology:

1.1) the ability "Embarcation" is active for all units:

1.1.1) units can "walk on water" during combat, and can attack armies both at land or at sea.

1.1.2) Units that have started the turn on water have the status "EMBARKED:" with the following effects:

1.1.2.1) -25% damage, -25% attack, -25% defense, -25% initiative, -1 RANGE (if ranged), and a fixed 2 tile moves.

1.1.2.2) If a unit is embarked, At the moment the unit reaches land, all it's movement and it's attack opportunity is consumed. If the unit is at land and enter water, all movement and it's attack is consumed

1.1.3) Amphibious attack are possible: if the unit is on water, next to a unit on a land tile, the attack can be made. Ranged attacks from the sea can also be made.

1.2) a new equipment is available for units and heroes, to be placed in the misc slot, that will give the "Amphibious" ability to the unit:

1.2.1) units with the "Amphibious" ability that start at sea have the "marine assault" status instead of the "embarked" status.

1.2.1.1) -10% attack, -10%defense, -10% initiative, -1 RANGE; it have a fixed 3 tile movements instead of 2.

1.2.1.2) if a unit with the "marine assault" is at sea, when it enters land it lose all movement points, but not it's attack opportunity : so it can counter, or attack a unit in range.

between land/sea at the expense of a permanent onus. This allows for creation of "pirate-like" units.

2) Combat deployment

2.1) An army that starts combat from land have the reinforcement tiles at land. An army that was at sea when the combat started has reinforcement tiles at sea.

2.2) If the defender army was at land, it can have units at land or sea during the deployment phase if shipyards are researched.

2.3) If the defender army was at sea, it can have units only in sea tiles during the deployment phase.

2.4) If The attacker army was at land, all units must be at land during the deployment phase.

2.5) If the attacker army was at sea, all units must be at sea during the deployment phase.

3) Wandering armies will behave as if they have researched "shipyards" the moment wandering armies can enter sea tiles.

4) To embark or disembark consume the army's action point.

If you implement naval warfare you are going to be adding a lot of units. I think if anything it would be an expansion with a new faction and minor faction fish races and such.

Hey, maybe naval gameplay with this twist: Not rock-paper-scissors or related things, not a naval faction. But kind of a "mirror world": A second world, which is kind of "mirrored" to the existing. Not naval underwater stuff, instead the same terrain as the "overworld".

Overworld: water => Mirrorworld: land

Overworld: land => Mirrorworld: water

Maybe some places, which have water in both worlds



You can switch your view at the ui (and with tech, you can reach it with your units etc.). You know, like in Pirates of the Caribbean: "The horizon is the "mirror" to the "other world"." But the world was already there, it`s the same you live in!

Maybe some strange physics going on down there...



@PotatoesAreBland: Yes, had the same issue with the cards at endless space. Too much words for a pc game; even boardgame cards have fewer lines on it... I think the devs made this, because nobody wants to search about the meaning of the cards.

sorry my bad english.i am italian. well,i think there is many choice.add naval unit.maybe who can transport few units too.or the standard ship vs ship and the stats depends form the sum of the units on the ship,but i think this can bee too unbalanced.i would love to see water cities too for give more depth to naval battle.

I just played a bit of Endless Space (not sure it's actually my cup of tea, but) and I was struck by the visual presentation. I'm not a fan of the card system (despite being an avid card/board gamer, there is too much going on at a glance) but there's something to the long/short/melee that could apply. Ranged. Flying. Melee.



Some thoughts: Dragon units. Doing fire damage. Have a small % to outright sink an entire ship during ranged combat. Cultists can choose to galley slave mercenary units (sacrificing them) to ensure that their speed prevents being over taken, and any ship combat occuring. Once proliferates have been researched Necrophage vessels have a chance to infest enemy ships, causing a low% of total hp loss on strategy map until targeted vessel debarks. Attacking a Roving Clan vessel causes an automatic 5 turn market ban, unless you defeat them. Ardent Mages boats can't be sunk (flying). Broken Lord's can choose one type of ship combat to ignore (armored).

For an increase of frequency of marine fights, I suggest to remove zeroing of glasses of movement.

I'm mostly against this. To be honest. I do think it could be implemented, but it'd take a lot of discussion and trial and error. I think Naval battles could easily disrupt just about the entire game's flow!



Presently however. You can get map layouts which the AI doesn't understand lend themselves to blockades. I've yet to play multi-player (I'm a little nervous, my internet isn't the most reliable). But the inability to respond to an early blockade with a naval conflict is problematic. But right now, the absence of naval conflicts is a minor absence. I have thought about it, and I have two thoughts really. These are convoys/box boats, not battleships.



If, this ability was unique to an entire faction, of more aquatic creatures (mermaids, w/e, who don't need a boat) there are lots of ways you could run ship combat. But mostly I imagine lots of drowning and unfair fights.



The more optimal method would seem to be approximate in nature. When naval combat occurs, two* temporary landmasses are created. Each land mass is the size of the army limit +1/2/etc... (for deployment purposes). Each of the current races might have slightly unique lay outs or terrain equivalent bonuses for their landmass. These landmasses as you can imagine, approximate a ship, or are in fact a ship. Each landmass starts apart, and each landmass advances one tile each combat round until they are facing one another**. There is no cannon fire unfortunately. But, for the last three rounds of combat, the ships are adjacent and each faction may engage in melee/boarding. In these situations, the Windwalkers become the most horrendously evil faction ever, and flying has an extra dimension.



*I'm using an example of just two armies to save myself a headache.

**Perhaps different techs/factions could have slightly different boat speeds/tile bonuses.

Interesting. The militia on empty ships sounds great actually. They could represent the ship's crew. A bunch of sword wielding scurvy sailors instead of the spear men of the city guard. It would make empty ships as fast scouts and rescue boats a viable option too. Please forgive my ramblings as I trudge through my own thoughts on it all



I think having the free convenient embarkation ships be a no frills matchstick boats is fair compared to armoured ships being something that requires research, industry and time to sink in to create a true navy to ferry your units across the waves to invade enemy lands. However, I wonder how worthwhile it is to make ships a unit built by cities. Building in cities means balancing their build time and their value compared to building units and buildings. Rather than pollute the build cues with ships and boats, having the embarkation ship scale based on research or era.



It would need much more work in terms of figuring out how it would relate to city and district placement on coast tiles, the need to research technologies, build dock districts, etc. I was suggesting something a bit more abstract and familiar in terms of how the game feels at the moment. I was aiming for a suggestion that I hoped would disrupt the current state of the game as little as possible, yet was still interesting.



At first I did imagine that, eventually there would be a dedicated ship unit, with it's own upgrade screen able to equip different armour and ship related things in item slots. Perhaps it depends how much people want naval combat to be a separate type of combat, with boats attacking each other (with units trapped helplessly inside transports waiting to be sunk), as opposed to the units fighting each other across the decks and gangplanks. That's how I imagined it, since that would be more in keeping with the sword and sorcery combat and the setting. Hence I didn't suggest units of swordsmen and archers attacking boats and sinking them directly. If boats were independent units, built from cities and upgradable in a similar way to units are now then making them destructible and active parts of battle is necessary.



Regarding what happens to ships after combat, I just imagined boats being auto scuttled if an army is wiped out. If boats are a unit built in cities, then capturing them could mean the victor gets a free boat and can use it them selves, scuttle it for an industry boost (perhaps add a stockpile?) or sell it for Dust. That could even allow boats to be bought and sold in the marketplace!



I'm still in favour of my original simpler, abstract idea. I enjoy the game play as it is now and don't fancy becoming a shipwright and logistics manager running a shipyard and charter service just to be able to take to the seas for a bit of piracy. However, a true invasion with armoured ships loaded with warriors and dragonlings should, I suppose require the efforts of a carefully constructed navy.



Perhaps a compromise could be that instead of building individual transports, a boat unit could represent a flotilla, with several vessels. The number could scale automatically with the number of units embarked on it (assuming it acts as a mobile garrison). An empty flotilla unit could comprise two boats each two hexes big with one militia aboard each ship (of course an empty flotilla should be unable to attack). Then when troops are embarked they fill up empty slots first and then replace militia for a maximum of 4 units (basic army/garrison size) with an extra boat added each time the army size research is completed.



As I said, forgive my ramblings. In summary, I'd stick with to the idea of boats as garrisons, I love your idea of them having militia units when unmanned by other army units. And, until the oceans of Auriga are expanded into a new wild and exotic frontier with ocean anomalies and ruins to fight for, and even magical floating cities to settle and invade, I would prefer ships and their construction to be as simple and uncluttered as possible.



Let me know what you think.

The idea seems good to me, though it could be improved. For instance wouldn't it make more sense to just have specialized combat transports and ships that act as movable garrisons that you have to build in cities? If you just needed a quick and speedy transport you could just use the current method with no industry cost while getting an either much weaker ship or a completely indefensible ship. Also as for the combat, shouldn't your units destroy the opposing ships? Unless you enable a mechanic to capture enemy vessels after you deal with the embarked units (such a mechanic sounds interesting to me, what do you guys think?) you will end up with a bunch of uninhabited and unsinkable moving garrisons which would cause all sorts of clutter and balance problems. As for ships without units occupying them, how about you add something similar to a militia unit that can defend ships and gets upgraded with the ship but isn't the same strength as normal units. Thoughts?

Like Hapshant, I vote for medium depth, naval war can help to protect your early base of a fast invasion (in hard difficulty), but i don't want fight all the game in the sea...

Nasarog wrote:
I like that as well. How do flying units fit in this scheme?

Well, perhaps fliers could move freely as long as they end their move on or adjacent to an enemy boat-deck tile, or enemy flyer unit. This would allow them to move in and attack enemy units embarked on ships and counter enemy fliers, but not move freely around the battle map as they can on land. In this way the unique feel of both land and ocean battle could be maintained and give flyers a unique role in ocean combat and coastal defence. Though thinking about it this way I can see balance being an issue regarding some factions having no flying units.



I suppose balance is helped through access to mercenaries, minor factions and the longbow's flyer hate ability. Also having fliers leave the decks of ships means losing the ship's defence bonus and could leave their ship vulnerable to attack as it now has an empty hex for boarding troops to occupy.



This got me thinking about how having a unit on an enemy ship might work. I guess an enemy being on board a ship could limit or prevent movement of the ship by the owning player. And how about capturing ships if yours is the only unit on an enemy ship?



Anyhow, it's just the thoughts of one hand tapping.



I'm glad you like the idea. Let me know what you think.



Hapshant

natev wrote:
I think that's the most intriguing idea for it that I've heard, Hapshant.

I like that as well. How do flying units fit in this scheme?

I think that's the most intriguing idea for it that I've heard, Hapshant.

First of all, I vote for medium depth.



I think there's a temptation to load naval combat with as many layers of detail as possible to give it the depth and complexity people feel it deserves. Perhaps, when things like ocean based factions or floating city tech gets introduced, naval combat could be developed to a point that there are many ship types, naval tech to research and city buildings to support navy construction.



For now though, it might be better to take a less is more approach. Adding new ship types might mean coastal cities, naval siege and shipyards cluttering up or usurping the simplicity and importance of land based units and combat. On the other hand, the thought of each unit being represented by a boat, or a HoMM style 'ship deck' terrain for a watery versions of land combat, may miss the chance for ocean combat to be interesting and dynamic.



With that said, I'd like to see something in between. I think a focus on land units rather than ship types would help maintain the medieval style combat of the setting. Rather than steam-punk battle ships blasting and ramming each other, let's see units fighting across the decks and boarding ramps of enemy ships. Ship types could be limited in terms of armor and size (number of embarked units/hex size on battle grid) rather than whether they are battleships, destroyers or transport ships.



I imagine it like this: each ship could act as a mini garrison, with the number of units embarked determined by a researchable tech or simply the current era. In battle, ships would represent large multi hex movable terrain on which the garrisoned units stand. Move the ship adjacent to an enemy ship to attack, boarding action style. Archers could still have their ranged attacks and fliers could have much more freedom (but moving them from their ship hex would leave that hex open for boarding units to occupy). Terrain could take the form of rough or calm ocean tiles which would limit the movement speed of ships. Units could disembark to take advantage of any coastal land tiles within the battle area and gain the high ground or forest bonus. While ships would have to move around such obstacles to get at ships taking cover against the shores. Ships could provide defense bonuses to embarked units which the units would have to give up when making a boarding attack against an enemy ship.



To keep the abstraction of embarking units on water without the need to build separate ship units, an army wanting to embark could incur an industry cost equivalent to the strength of the ship type desired. Zero cost for a simple longboat which offers no defensive bonuses in combat, with higher costs per size and defense bonus.



This adds complexity to naval battles without being a totally different format from land combat and keeps the focus on land units with no need build and to learn a whole new set of ship unit types.



Let me know what you think. Are you all aboard or will you abandon ship? No doubt my idea is full of holes, please torpedo it if you find it lacking. :P I think naval additions to EL will sink or swim based on how simple or complicated they are and whether they add or detract from the setting as a whole and the feel of the game.



Peace out.



Hapshant.

I don't have any ideas for a system (but there are tons of good ones in this thread).



I think a clean system (something that integrates cleanly into the current battle system) would be ideal. <3