I think naval combat should either be done fast & simple or delayed until later.



Fast & Simple options:

• Transported units do not participate in a fight in any way (they traverse the sea as a weak transport ship with stats dependent on the tech level). A single "battleship" unit added to hunt them down.
• Naval battles are ship boarding fights on special "ship" maps. Due to highly constrained space archers and heavy infantry have an advantage.
  
  

KrimsonVagus wrote:
Yeah the proposed stats debate is as follows:



The ships should have stats based on units inside them? Or should ships have a specific stats by default REGARDLESS of the actual unit inside them?



I think this is a big question that must be answered early... OR we could just go all out and make transport ships completely helpless and they must be escorted by actual combat ships



Also:

Flyers can fight on water WITHOUT ships? OR Flyers ships behave the same as melee ships?



Another idea is to copy the navy mechanics from Medieval: Total War:

Land units can board actual combat/transport ships but they have no effect on the combat itself i.e all combat will be performed by the ships regardless of units inside them. Of course, if the navy dies >> all land units inside it will die

I think that transport ships for infantry units would be based on some sort of extra customization option, so the more industry devoted to that certain stat, the more power that ship has.However, for cavalry units I think that they should have a naval penalty if you are going to base ships on class, as they would require room on the ship for their mounts, and less manpower = less ship power. As for flying units, they could definitely operate over water but not the whole battle I think. As they must have limited endurance. Could they possibly work like aircraft carriers, with flyers flying out to attack ships, then coming back the next turn or so to rest? Support and archers could probably work similarly with bombardments though archers should be stronger than support units. As for if you lose, all units could die, and all of them probably should die, but wouldn't it be interesting if a few ground units and some flying units could wash ashore someplace as castaways? You might be able to save some of your army from a particularly bad battle, and it would be balanced as they would probably have low health and have washed ashore in a remote location.

As for new sea terrain that could effect the naval battles, would there just be random tiles? Or would there be a pattern to them? Would they be influenced by nearby regions? I.e. glaciers could spawn near arctic regions while river sediment might occur closer to

rivers. As for besieging from the sea, that should definitely be possible for islands, but it just doesn't make since for mainland cities, sure you could block their access to the ocean, but you wouldn't be able to do anything to their overland exploitation. Also Nasarog, there is never harm in discussing possibilities, even if it doesn't get feedback from the devs, you are always free to discuss.

I'm just chiming in to show my support. Naval warfare definitely needs to be in this game. I think the game still requires a lot of polishing/finishing up first but I really hope naval combat is in the works for the future.

There NEEDS to be some sort of naval combat because I've seem to have run into half a bug: I have a quest "The Second Mouse" where I need to attack two roaming armies.



Which are both on a ship and I haven't seen them land EVER.



In other words, I seem kinda stuck in that quest because I can't attack other ships

If you had these different types of ships though, how would you customize them? Would they just be stock ships that cannot be edited, or will they have equipment like units now. Would they all cost strategic resources, or would there be an equivalent of dust and iron armour for them? Also, what effects would each have on ships? Would they give bonuses to initiative or damage as the current weapons do? Or would they have completely different effects marking Naval Warfare in the game as having different strategy than land combat? Also as for transports, would all transports have the same effect, I mean an infantry or cavalry unit aboard a ship isn't going to be able to do much, but archers could fire flaming arrows at opposing ships? And finally, could they also be customizable? Perhaps it could be apart of the unit customizing screen, you could reinforce their transport at extra industry and upkeep cost or something like that.

Kruos wrote:
Naval combat system would be a nice addition for sure, but IMO there are other things more interesting to add before, to increase the depth (like spying, politics linked to empire plan, etc..) or simply to increase diversity (more of everything).



Considering the actual combat system is heavily 'tiles oriented', I dont see it fit well with a naval transposition because there would be not enough tiles diversity to make it interesting. Even with some unit diversity like the proposal above, I fear that it would be boring. It is why I think the best direction is to go for a very simple system, maybe a nearly automatic one with only a stance choice and basta.

Espionage and diplomacy expansion is coming. The dev's said so, so is naval combat. Imagine if you have an ocean tile set that has various water types, physical obstacles like corral reefs and shallow water etc. I think it could work. You'll end up having 3 types of ships. One that's ranged. One that's melee, and the transport ships (that do minimal damage to the combat ships, but have high hit points).

Naval combat system would be a nice addition for sure, but IMO there are other things more interesting to add before, to increase the depth (like spying, politics linked to empire plan, etc..) or simply to increase diversity (more of everything).



Considering the actual combat system is heavily 'tiles oriented', I dont see it fit well with a naval transposition because there would be not enough tiles diversity to make it interesting. Even with some unit diversity like the proposal above, I fear that it would be boring. It is why I think the best direction is to go for a very simple system, maybe a nearly automatic one with only a stance choice and basta.

@KV - I've seen your Naga proposal. Pretty good stuff.

Nasarog wrote:
Yes, It's a must.



Here's how I would do it.



Introduction of multiple new resources to exploit. Both luxury and strategic. Also an introduction to additional tech that adds food, production, dust, research and influence.



An addition of 2 new units. One unit is a naval combat unit like a destroyer, and a second unit that's a bombardment unit like a battleship. Embarked units get to attack and defend themselves, but at a significant disadvantage.



An introduction of several aquatic based creatures that could impede your progress on the seas through attacks on your fleets.



An introduction of winter effects on the seas that affect travel, and survivability.



An introduction of a new faction that comes out of the water. They would be unique like the Cultists, only aquatic based.



An introduction of naval combat similar to tactical combat now, but using the seas (big waves, fast current, becalmed sea) and corral reefs the way that obstacles and elevation is used now.



An introduction of a mechanic to siege and conquer towns from the sea.







That's it I think.

YES! Water-based faction: I want this Amplitude, plzzz. You guys are the best



Also, I fully agree with your proposals, including the addition of Minor water factions. Check out my signature below for more details!

Yes, It's a must.



Here's how I would do it.



Introduction of multiple new resources to exploit. Both luxury and strategic. Also an introduction to additional tech that adds food, production, dust, research and influence.



An addition of 2 new units. One unit is a naval combat unit like a destroyer, and a second unit that's a bombardment unit like a battleship. Embarked units get to attack and defend themselves, but at a significant disadvantage.



An introduction of several aquatic based creatures that could impede your progress on the seas through attacks on your fleets.



An introduction of winter effects on the seas that affect travel, and survivability.



An introduction of a new faction that comes out of the water. They would be unique like the Cultists, only aquatic based.



An introduction of naval combat similar to tactical combat now, but using the seas (big waves, fast current, becalmed sea) and corral reefs the way that obstacles and elevation is used now.



An introduction of a mechanic to siege and conquer towns from the sea.







That's it I think.

Yeah the proposed stats debate is as follows:



The ships should have stats based on units inside them? Or should ships have a specific stats by default REGARDLESS of the actual unit inside them?



I think this is a big question that must be answered early... OR we could just go all out and make transport ships completely helpless and they must be escorted by actual combat ships



Also:

Flyers can fight on water WITHOUT ships? OR Flyers ships behave the same as melee ships?



Another idea is to copy the navy mechanics from Medieval: Total War:

Land units can board actual combat/transport ships but they have no effect on the combat itself i.e all combat will be performed by the ships regardless of units inside them. Of course, if the navy dies >> all land units inside it will die

I chose the first option.



As for the explanation of how naval combat works, I propose a simple idea based on the mechanics of land combat. Here we go:



If 2 embarked armies (i.e a land army that turned into ships on water) have entered a battle >> Both navies enter the Battle View that is based on the terrain itself (same concept as land battle). Of course, this means that the battle view will consist entirely of Ships fighting each other over large water terrain. For more terrain variety over water battles, the devs could spawn volcanoes and/or mountains (ridges) all over the oceans. Even better is to add features like "maelstrom" or storm clouds that make your ships move slower.



So now we discuss how these "land unit" ships behave:

There are 3 kinds of transportation ships >> Melee unit ships, Support unit ships, and Ranged unit ships



All melee units in the game (except flying soldiers?) will turn into melee ships when they enter the water, and they must all have the same starting movement points (i.e a ship containing cavalry will NOT move faster than a ship containing infantry). Their other stats will be based on the land units themselves? OR all melee ships have exactly the same default stats? I think this part is worth a debate...

Melee ships attack by ramming enemy ships directly (just like in medieval times?) OR we could give them short range/medium range attacks?



As for Support type units >> all ships containing support units (like Driders and Dust Bishop) have a default medium range magical attack and they have same default stats OR stats based on the land unit inside them (same stats debate as before)



As for Ranger units >> all ships containing rangers will have a default Long Range attack and same default stats OR stats based on the land unit inside them (same stats debate as before)



As for Flying units >> I recommend making them fight without ships. They fly around and attack ships as normal, but we could give them some nerfs when fighting over water. It depends on balance issues. Another choice is to make ships containing Flyers behave the same as melee unit ships. This is also worth a debate imo



Now we can also discuss hero behavior in naval combat as well as the possibility of adding actual combat ships in the water instead of just having unit transports? There are many options... I will wait for feedback from other players

As the general idea of Naval Warfare, and possibly a deeper expansion into the oceans, seems to be gaining support, I thought it might be interesting to discuss how the current factions could be adapted to allow for the magnitude of thelarge swathes of the map real ocean exploration (and perhaps colonization) and warfare that would be provided in a Naval expansion. Personally I believe that at least some of the current factions should be granted a unique warship design rather than just the transports of troops that have already been suggested. Some factions should probably also be given either positive or negative bonuses with water. Probably factions with an attachment to water such as the Broken Lords who rely on the water for large amounts of dust income should be granted more positive bonuses on the water. On the other hand factions that utilize water infrequently should be given negative bonuses. As for what these bonuses could be, it might be for ship movement, combat power, initiative, overall FIDSI earned from colonization of ocean regions, increased amount of strategic or luxury resources produced by ocean regions, maybe even earlier or later eras with an ocean exploration and colonization tech within them. With a fully fleshed out system, a lot could be accomplished with the sea even without specialized water factions. What are everyone's thoughts on how the existing factions could be incorporated into being able to use such a Naval system?

my view of naval warfare is simple, a way of summing it up is a re-skinned version of land battles.

1.rather than 1 ship showing, i suggest multiple ship with different design to add more colour or to make it look like a fleet, they move one after another. like in this image in civ 5 but better.



2.combat is still the same as on land (hence the term of re skinned) melee and ranged units will function the same as on land including their stats.

3.flyers and other classes (ie ateshi zealot, ancient etc) that an fly will act similar to a carrier. when in combat they are the same as they are on land, when not in combat they will have a ship carrying them.

4.units that cant fly will be on ships, with the exceptions of ocean creatures faction/minor faction etc. they will split into 2 types: ranged and melee.

5. ranged ships splits into magic dealing types and the non magic dealing types, can be distinguish by their designs.

6. melee units splits into battle ship(other names are available), sea version of infantry. and cruisers, sea version of cavalry. again distinguished by their own designs.

7. battle animation are the same as on land for airborne, range and other units (ie telsem warlock). for those that do actual melee in the animation will be replaced with ramming/boarding animations.

8. unit design will be dependant upon their faction/minor faction, the actual unit and their class.

9. as for amphibious battles (land armies vs sea armies) will have a map dependant in the location/geography. ie if its a small island invasion the entire small islands are encompassed in the battle, however amphibious assault large land mass will typically have the battle map to have 2/3 being land. any units getting into land or sea will have a movement penalty and to miss an attack. this happens to any units, so advisable to keep ranged unit at sea/land in the battle for support of transitioning troops.

10. terrain tiles will affect combat, so shallow water tiles (ie coast coral lake etc) will reduces movement of all units, while deep areas are normal. weather will be random and affect movement, winter reduces movement with the exception of winter units, rough seas in any season reduce movement of units.

11. sea units/creatures and new sea terrains will be introduced.

12. sea based faction with new mechanics (as explained on other threads)

13. unit customization will have 2 tabs: one for land and the other for naval warfare, with the exception of airborne units ie a marine will have a tab for its land customization tab and another tab for naval customization.

14. heroes will act the same as on land, the same applies as normal units, heroes will fight on their own ships (with the exception of airborne heroes).

Lemmy wrote:
@Kuroneko: As long as other civilizations cannot build cities on water, this would be utterly overpowered. No other faction could attack them at the beginning of the game and they would be protected by the water.

I think that it could definitely be a similar mechanic to Endless Space in which you have to research a tech to settle in ocean regions, it could be balanced by requiring water factions to research a similar tech to settle in land based regions.

Kuroneko wrote:
Just droping my two cents. I want a new WATER RACE with WATER CITY XD and also the idea of the naval fights

and having armies board ships and duke it out in a special ship map would be awesome! This could be made a

whole new expansion to the game and It would be worth every penny, but it has to be awesome!



Amplitude Games lets dethrone Civilization, I'm tired of their bullshit and beyond earth was crap!

Ask and you shall receive



Check out my signature below for the threads related to Water factions

@Kuroneko: As long as other civilizations cannot build cities on water, this would be utterly overpowered. No other faction could attack them at the beginning of the game and they would be protected by the water.

Just droping my two cents. I want a new WATER RACE with WATER CITY XD and also the idea of the naval fights

and having armies board ships and duke it out in a special ship map would be awesome! This could be made a

whole new expansion to the game and It would be worth every penny, but it has to be awesome!



Amplitude Games lets dethrone Civilization, I'm tired of their bullshit and beyond earth was crap!

Most importantly the way naval units are able to block entry to regions needs to be solved if no combat system is coming. I never enjoyed naval warfare in 4X games so far, but perhaps Amplitude could find a way of making it interesting! It is certainly not a priority feature in my book.