KnightofPhoenix wrote:
That is very impressive and interesting, I never thought to play the Forgotten in such a way. Worth a shot!

Good luck! I attempted to make a "Peaceful, Economic Forgotten" custom faction (like 30% more dust, 2 extra trade routes, starts with Glassteel/Titanium for Museum, etc) and first attempt (with a much worse starting zone) got turn 80 last science purchase, turn 81 Science Victory.











With some practice and refinement (and a better starting zone) I'm almost wondering if sub-70 is possible.



And I don't think I'm *ever* going to get a turn 81 Science Victory as any other faction!



P.S. Amusingly enough, this is a strategy that gets *harder* on lower difficulties, since the AI will be slower to settle, get up roads, have techs to trade, money/resources to trade, etc.

Eschaton wrote:
But I poked around in the game files and noticed there are actually two unused infiltration actions. One is the city option to Leech Trade Routes, and the other is the empire option to Steal Luxury Booster. So I'm curious, would Amplitude want to implement these in the future, or were they left out for balance and/or technical reasons?

Aha! Well spotted



Yes those infiltration actions were tested during development but were eventually dropped and replaced with, if memory serves, the "reduce production" and "reduce morale" actions. As always we're grateful to the VIPs for helping us test these things before they go public.

This guide is good and deep.



Forgottens are the best designed race from Endless Legend. Their features are great, the feelings when you play them is very original and feet to their lore. In comparaison, the majority of the civs are pretty naked in term of real game changing features (for exemple mages pillars are fun but changes nothing to the strategy of the civ).



The only problem with Forgottens... it's they are very very weaks in multiplayer, because they cannot rely on their main strength to compensante their economic and science handicaps : the pillage.



Vs A.I you can fill up limitless on their extractors, village etc. the A.I very rarely see you and react. You can then compensate the economic power the others civ have (for exemple the industry and influence bonus of the wild walkers) with the raids.



But, not in multiplayer, where they are very quicky outperformed in science, where infiltration rarely works well because good players knows how to round up with efficacity.



One of the las patch added to them +8 dust to the monument, but it's absolutely not enough to get out their head from the water.

Dear Avilyss i was making a guide on steam and knightofphoenix recommended i come here. Anyways i'm wondering if you would allow me to advertise a link to your guide on the steam community guides page. I'll advertise the link in the table of contents with you as the creator of the guide clearly mentioned.

Curious about something...

Scientific Victory

Unless you are a masochist, this victory should be the farthest thing from your mind

Why do you say this? I haven't put massive effort into optimization, but so far my best science victory time (Endless difficulty, Normal game speed) with no tech trading on one city was in the 160s on Mezari and 130ish on Forgotten. And tech trading or more cities would speed it up for both of them (hilariously, I could have shaved at least another 5-10 turns off the Forgotten time if any of the AI had actually researched one of the Era VI techs (one or more may have gotten Difference Engine, but none of them had an Era VI tech other than that)). I actually wound up winning a simultaneous Economic/Scientific victory since I had to buy out all five Era VI techs -- and it was a mediocre start for the Forgotten too.



In short -- it seems you can probably win Scientific Victory faster with Forgotten than any other race due to cascading Dust income actually "being" science.

I just sped through another game with no tech trading and Forgotten, one city, peaceful. No spying for tech, no pillaging, no nothing. Won Economic Victory turn 126, Science Victory turn 127 (30% research cost thing literally happened as I hit era 6 and I paid an extra 25k for Dust Distillery, wound up being about that much short of buying the final Era VI tech "in time"). Screwed up a lot of stuff as well and had an average start at best. Going to practice refining the technique a bit, probably will also engage in some tech trading and maybe steal a tech or two (but won't have time to steal more than a few later era techs, realistically speaking). Wonder if I can get it below 110.



It gets even more crazy if you do custom Forgotten and scrap stuff like Pillage for Dust Efficient, more trade routes, 30% dust on cities, etc.

New record: turn 111 Science Victory (bought last tech on turn 110). Biggest map possible with 8 opponents, did get a good starting area (lots of dust tiles with both Glass and Titanium, no initial luxes though and only one anomaly) along with Museum (and Megapole, but that's pretty common). On the downside, didn't get the type of governor I wanted until turn 76ish and literally 0 trade routes until turn 94 since not a single AI settled a region surrounding my capital until then. I think if I actually get the trade routes sooner that I might be able to break turn 100 for Science Victory.

That is impressive Balkoth! Did you make all these attempts on a huge map? The AI tends to be a lot more aggressive in smaller maps due to lebensraum, including large with 8 players, so I am not sure going for science victory is that viable when under that much pressure.



But in any case, that is still quite impressive. Well done!

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
That is impressive Balkoth! Did you make all these attempts on a huge map?

I did, with like 80% land. I think it's the first I've *overestimated* the AI's settling capability.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
The AI tends to be a lot more aggressive in smaller maps due to lebensraum, including large with 8 players, so I am not sure going for science victory is that viable when under that much pressure.

Interesting you should say that. See, I decided to redo it on a smaller map in an effort to break turn 100 -- specifically, Large with 8 players. I "cheated" in that I set every opponent to Drakken as well, to ensure I could attempt to propose peace and get map exchanges/good trade routes ASAP. The catch, of course, is that the Drakken seem ridiculously aggressive early game until they get the peace tech...and they ALL know where I am too!



I also had a really bad starting area and spent several turns traveling to what looked like it could be a promising desert...and was. I settled on 4 anomalies (only one minor faction village, though, the 5% Food guys and no early game strategics or luxuries). Missed the Museum by 3 turns (though didn't expect to get it after having to move for several turns and start with the dust heavy desert area)...got the Megapole on turn 37-38 though, which is the earliest I've ever done it.



End result? Turn 93 Science Victory (meaning bought last tech on turn 92).



And I'm sure that more turns could be shaved off as well by someone better/more experienced. I definitely could have sold a lot of my techs to the AI earlier in the game to finance new tech purchases, though I think I did reasonably well at buying/trading for their tech. Also might have worked better to really focus on buying early era techs (late game, that is, because they're much cheaper) unless the tech was really essential -- by the time I got the food techs in Era V, for example, my city probably only had like 20 turns to grow with them. Skipping those and having the citizens on Dust instead would probably have shaved off a turn or three (ditto for some other choices).



Some points to consider...



1. the first Era VI tech (assuming *exactly* 45 techs prior to that) costs 93420 science. Early on I did a one city game with Mezari and got the city to 18k science per turn. A week or two later I repeated the experiment and got the city to 22k science per turn (and we're talking around turn 130-150 range time here for those numbers). But let's even say you manage to get to 30k science a turn through a crazy single city or a well developed empire. If all five techs stayed the same cost and didn't increase, you'd need 467100 science to get all five, which would be 16 turns.



2, the first Era VI tech (assuming *exactly* 45 techs prior to that) costs 93420 dust. This last game, on one city I was making 44k dust per turn on turn 80-85. If all five techs stayed the same cost and didn't increase, you'd need 11 turns to get all five. So the Forgotten already have an "edge" in this regard -- it's easiest to get high dust than high science, basically.



3, the 20% bonus science perk from the Empire Plan is NOT multiplicative on top of everything else. I loaded a save of a game where I had 11596 science in a city...and a whole 468.5 of it was from the Empire Plan.



4, the 20% cost reduction in research from the Forgotten Empire Plan IS multiplicative on top of everything else (well, there's not much else in the category, but yeah). So that 93420 dust for an Era VI tech? Becomes about 74736 dust needed with the Empire Plan. And would take 9 turns to buy five techs at that price.



In my particular game I hit Era VI on turn 83. And bought the fifth tech nine turns later. You would need 50k+ science to accomplish the same feat...and there's no way you have 50k science on turn 83 (or remotely close to it).



Now you might be thinking "Er, every faction can use Roving Clan governors and have better early/mid/late game presence/power/economy/etc." That's completely true. The difference is that none of the other factions can leverage the dust spiral directly INTO science...so the Forgotten can reach the end-game much faster. Any dust that isn't needed for retrofits/heroes/buyouts/etc can be leveraged into science immediately...at a better rate than science itself is due to the 20% discount.



This also is vanilla Forgotten, to restate what I mentioned in previous posts. If you stripped out stuff like Pillage, Search Party, ability to steal tech, etc and replace those with economic traits? Gets even crazier.

That is very impressive and interesting, I never thought to play the Forgotten in such a way. Worth a shot!

TheDeadDude wrote:
Dear Avilyss i was making a guide on steam and knightofphoenix recommended i come here. Anyways i'm wondering if you would allow me to advertise a link to your guide on the steam community guides page. I'll advertise the link in the table of contents with you as the creator of the guide clearly mentioned.

I'm flattered, really! I don't mind if you link the guide at all.

GAME MECHANICS (GAME STAGES)



Early Game

With a general understanding of the mindset I play with, let's go over the game stages (Early, Mid, Late, End).



For the Early Game, your focus is going to be on getting your Dust Engine started and your Production Engine started. The basic breakdown is:

• Divide your army and explore
• Emphasize searching ruins and pacifying villages in the region(s) you're in or will be expanding to
• Carefully manage your hero, keep her a governor when possible but don't hesitate to assign her to an army if necessary
• Expand rapidly, there is no better time to get your cities made than early when people can't do much about them
• Establish your game plan, know how you're going to win and make every decision with that goal in mind
  
  

Expanding

Expand deliberately. Spend the early game scouting out territories that are worth expanding to. Plenty of forest tiles, strategic resource deposits (luxury if you plan to use them), good minor faction choices (preferably with more than one village).



Scouting

Stay on the move. Information is the name of the game for the Forgotten. The more you know about your enemy and the less they know about you, the more the deck is stacked in your favor. Try and scout out your enemies' capital cities, check their resource deposit locations and minor factions, get an idea for the type of game they're setting up to play and do start putting together a plan to hinder it.



Caution

Play carefully. The Forgotten want to stay hidden, don't worry about getting the Legendary Deed achievements unless they benefit you (the one that grants an initiative bonus to your armies is worth working toward but only if it's not going to put you into a terrible position). Don't engage in a fight unless you know it's going to end in your favor and focus more on preserving what you have this early in the game.



Midgame

The Midgame transition occurs once you've got your starting cities (recommend between four and six cities if you can get them) and their basic infrastructure laid out. By this point, you should be in Era II and your cities should all have the basic layout for a solid production facility (Mill Foundry, Empire Mint, Seed Storage, Sewer System and Strategic Resource Harvesters).



At this point your focus changes from expansion and developing infrastructure to putting into motion your victory plan. Know what type of victory you're wanting to achieve and begin making every decision with that victory in mind. Your cities should now largely be producing units primarily, only sprinkling in buildings when you purchase a new research that grants an important building (and you should buy the buildings out whenever possible).



It is also around this time that you'll shift your workers primarily to Dust and only move them back to Industry when you really need to. (Spreading them to Food in Winter to prevent starvation if necessary and Influence as necessary to meet Empire Plans and/or execute infiltration actions).



Marketplace

Purchasing the Mercenary Market early isn't vital but getting it before you get to Midgame should be a priority. Pay attention to the Market, especially the heroes and units as you can not only see what's available to you but also track what your enemies are purchasing.



Keep your eyes out for good heroes that are going to help you accomplish your goals. If you see a good governor hero, for instance, grab them and use them to help fuel your engine. If you see a good general, grab them and use them to help your armies. If you see a good spy, grab them and use them to sabotage your enemy.



But don't try to do it all! Get a governor and generals or a governor and spies, get just generals, just spies or just governors but don't try doing all of it or you'll spread yourself too thin. Remember, specialization is important to the Forgotten, grab the heroes that will get you where you're trying to go.



Trade Routes

Building Trade Routes is helpful but not vital, the influx of Dust is helpful but you don't benefit from the Science. The primary benefit is simply the roads, the ability to get around the map easier is pretty beneficial to your overall mobility.



Shipyard

Unless you have a pressing need to get units to another continent or island, this research is a waste of time. Also keep in mind that Forgotten boats do not benefit from stealth.



Managing your Hero(es)

At this point, you should have a primary governor hero complete with the Dust from Forests skill to help power your economy. You should also have or be on the lookout for a good general or spy depending on how you plan on winning the game. Moving your heroes around frequently and keeping them where they're going to give you the most benefit will help immensely.



Research

Moreso than Early Game, it pays to be prudent with your research choices in Midgame. Research begins to get very expensive around Era II and especially Era III so at this point it becomes very important to choose your research path carefully. Make sure you take research that gives you a benefit you can exercise to accomplish victory, otherwise it's probably not worth the investment.



Late Game

The Late Game transition occurs when Guardians start hitting the field and you're no longer laying the foundation for your victory condition, you're actively executing it. Keep in mind that if you're executing your victory condition plan, so are your enemies! At this point in the game your ability to purchase research is severely hampered, your opponents are likely eclipsing you in terms of research (most of them are in Era III maybe even Era IV and you're likely still in Era II or have just hit Era III). It is at this point in the game where Infiltration can begin to benefit you the most in terms of stealing technology if you need it.



Late game is essentially Midgame with escalation. Bigger units, bigger cities, bigger numbers but ultimately the same game. The added difficulty here is that you will almost inevitably be behind your enemies in terms of research and technology, a weakness that you'll compensate for by hindering your opponents and continuing to play the information game. Pillaging occurs very quickly at this point in the game and making good use of your stealth to track and ambush enemy armies will help you punish any mistakes they make.



Endgame

The Endgame. This is what it has all been leading to. Endgame occurs when you're no longer engaging in skirmishes and simply trying to hinder your opponents but are now putting the finishing touches on your victory.



At this point, you should no longer be worried about research and the Dust Engine you've spent most of the game building and maintaining now becomes your greatest asset. The combination of high production on your cities and a vast stockpile of Dust should allow you to quickly and efficiently field armies, make purchases from the marketplace and stay in competition with your enemies.

An interesting way to play Forgotten Balkoth but it seems like a lot of manipulation goes into it to make it possible.



Let me explain the reasoning behind the original statement:



While a Science Victory is definitely possible, I think it's ultimately inefficient. Your observations regarding how the bonuses and Empire Plan work not withstanding, the Forgotten will generally not have many opportunities to advance Science at the rate needed to achieve victory against a skilled opponent.



Some observations on my end: The smallest map you played on is Large (correct me if I'm wrong), which provides a lot more liberty for expansion, reduces aggression, reduces expansion pressure, increases resource availability, increases overall economy availability and increases travel time for enemy units to and through your territory. Most games I've seen played are on Normal or smaller map sizes which changes the landscape quite a bit. Namely, it forces you to invest a lot more into military in order to avoid getting overrun by an adversary playing a strong military game, lowers the overall economy on the map (reducing Dust availability without reducing the cost of the research) and reducing the number of expansions you're able to procure.



It should also be noted that this guide was written not just from a "versus AI" standpoint but also for multiplayer and most of the points and suggestions made within it are under that context. A human opponent is going to be doing a lot more to disrupt your science game than an AI opponent will. First, you certainly won't have as much success trading techs for Dust to a human opponent because if you're outpacing them that severely in science, they're going to know what you're doing with your economy. You're also going to have to contend with them being more adept at harassing your cities and units, snatching important territories from you and generally disrupting your play style.



I don't dispute that what you've suggested is possible and it is certainly very interesting and a unique way to play the Forgotten that I might play around with a bit myself. I've simply found in my limited experience that a decent Vaulters or Ardent Mages player is going to outpace your science growth and most players will keep you under pressure sufficiently enough to keep your Dust invested elsewhere other than science.

Avilyss wrote:
I'm flattered, really! I don't mind if you link the guide at all.

Nice! if your interested in my guide on steam here is the link.



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604155159



I would be happy if you could drop by with a few things to add to it or just check it out.

Avilyss wrote:
While a Science Victory is definitely possible, I think it's ultimately inefficient.

Isn't that true for every faction?

Avilyss wrote:
The smallest map you played on is Large (correct me if I'm wrong), which provides a lot more liberty for expansion, reduces aggression, reduces expansion pressure, increases resource availability, increases overall economy availability and increases travel time for enemy units to and through your territory. Most games I've seen played are on Normal or smaller map sizes which changes the landscape quite a bit. Namely, it forces you to invest a lot more into military in order to avoid getting overrun by an adversary playing a strong military game, lowers the overall economy on the map (reducing Dust availability without reducing the cost of the research) and reducing the number of expansions you're able to procure.

Honestly? I only played on Large to guarantee every luxury, because not having access to Glasssilk from the market or trade would be crippling. Keep in mind this is also on ONE city. Ever. I had no expansions at all. Which means I'm not sure why it would lower the economy -- technically the trade routes would be slightly worse since they can't cover as much ground, but it wouldn't change all that much. I was also actually selling a lot of military units due to immense production -- could have easily just, y'know, kept those without sacrificing too many turns overall.

Avilyss wrote:
It should also be noted that this guide was written not just from a "versus AI" standpoint but also for multiplayer and most of the points and suggestions made within it are under that context.

I mean no offense, but I didn't get that impression. Things like the governor choice felt more like single player "lore" choices -- 2 influence per level, 4 dust per level, and 5 dust from forest tiles? I'd much rather have governors like the Wild Walker hero with 4 food per level, 6 industry per level, +1 industry on forests, 20ish raw production, 24% cheaper buildings, 45% industry bonus, and 90% reduced city upkeep. Or the Necrophage with 6 food per level, 4 industry per level, 24% cheaper units, 30 raw food, and 45% growth. Or several other choices. Especially since you advised limiting boroughs, which drastically limits the benefits of that +5 dust per forest tile.



My goal here isn't to go through the guide and try to pick it apart...but it didn't really read like a "ruthless multiplayer guide" when I went through it.

Avilyss wrote:
A human opponent is going to be doing a lot more to disrupt your science game than an AI opponent will. First, you certainly won't have as much success trading techs for Dust to a human opponent because if you're outpacing them that severely in science, they're going to know what you're doing with your economy. You're also going to have to contend with them being more adept at harassing your cities and units, snatching important territories from you and generally disrupting your play style.

I'll point out that I literally never traded techs for Dust except to buy the final Era VI tech and shave off a turn. I also wasn't outpacing the AI -- I was trading them good techs in earlier eras they had skipped at the time. The adept at harassing and such applies to all factions as well -- everything is "slower" in multiplayer as a result. But since this strategy is based on one city, it's basically like playing a Cultist style game...except you don't have to go out and convert villages or conquer people.

Avilyss wrote:
I've simply found in my limited experience that a decent Vaulters or Ardent Mages player is going to outpace your science growth and most players will keep you under pressure sufficiently enough to keep your Dust invested elsewhere other than science.

*Every* faction is going to outpace your science for a long time. Then you pick up a bit with the Transmuter/Refinery/Highway Outposts. Then pick up even more with National Craftworks. Then bulldoze ahead with Customs House. It's like Broken Lords...except instead of buying population with Dust, you buy Science with Dust. Slow start, insane end-game.



As Mezari, for example, I'm usually picking up a tech every 3-4ish turns for a long time. As Forgotten, that's more like every 7-8 turns starting in Era II...then wind up buying 4-5 techs in ONE turn end-game.

I appreciate the criticism Balkoth.



As I said, you've found an interesting and inventive way to play the Forgotten and I don't have any intention of saying that what you've suggested is inferior or inadvisable, simply that it isn't a style I've had a lot of experience playing with and why I originally suggested avoiding a Science Victory in this guide.

That's a fair point, and I think most people haven't even considered it either. And, in all seriousness, I might never have considered it...except the person who got me Endless Legend as a gift a month ago said "Win a Science Victory with the Forgotten on Endless and then I'll bow to your mastery!" So I spent a fair amount of effort trying to figure it out -- and originally I was relying on trading for 1-2 of the Era VI techs and buying the other 3-4. And then I noticed I could win Science faster as Forgotten than as the "actual" Science factions.



I'm also working on a guide for it, inspired by this guide, hopefully can post it (new thread) today or tomorrow. Won't be as in-depth as yours at first, but want to get it out there and edit in more stuff later, y'know?

Balkoth wrote:
I'm also working on a guide for it, inspired by this guide, hopefully can post it (new thread) today or tomorrow. Won't be as in-depth as yours at first, but want to get it out there and edit in more stuff later, y'know?

Please do. If you´re beating Endless with a single forgotten city without Animal Husbandry by turn 80, there must be something you´re doing very right.



It´s also worth noting that on smaller maps you´d get the economic victory before the scientific one, so that´s a great reason why "this victory should be the farthest thing from your mind" in op´s words.

BPrado wrote:
Please do. If you´re beating Endless with a single forgotten city without Animal Husbandry by turn 80, there must be something you´re doing very right.

Like I said, I'm still new to the game, but I'm not really seeing the point of the Husbandry Center -- with the exceptions of "Tons of Industry for Settlers and then use Husbandry to grow back up for the next one" and "Need to grow city to 30 size/15 districts for Legendary Deed." Neither of which is relevant for one city.

BPrado wrote:
It´s also worth noting that on smaller maps you´d get the economic victory before the scientific one, so that´s a great reason why "this victory should be the farthest thing from your mind" in op´s words.

Looked at some stuff, and it seems you're right on 2 or 4 person maps (unless you can trade for an Era VI tech or two, but these wins are so fast that even Endless AI don't have those techs). 6 person maps is entirely doable, though if you try to work Dust rather than Industry for buildings or units (which is less efficient for making buildings/units so that's already a bad idea) then you could win presumably win Economic Victory on 6 person prior to Science Victory.



On the flip side, being able to win Economic Victory that early is still faster than probably every other faction. And it's about spiraling out of control once you start getting Dust Techs. Even Broken Lords can't literally just buy Dust Driven Distillery the instant they hit Era VI.

I think sometimes the most efficient way to play isn't always the most fun or interesting.



I also think that EL isn't exactly meant to be the most balanced game ever; within reasonable imagination, but not to exact/precise levels.



When I first started playing EL, it was all about figuring out the mechanics and becoming as efficient as possible; now, it's about making my games as interesting as possible.



It would probably be more interesting for Forgotten to not be able to buy science better than they can spy it.