Logo Platform
logo amplifiers simplified
Frogsquadron

Frogsquadron

6 years ago Sep 19,2018, 14:32:17 PM

Umbral Choir Making-Of, Pt 2: Inside a Game Design meeting

Reply
4 576 Views
31 Comments

Hey everyone,


This blog post is the second of a series focusing on the creation process of our upcoming Umbral Choir. We will be covering the game design aspect, then the art, and if everybody's on their best behavior, finish with a G2G vote or two! Ever wondered how the secret sauce was made? Here's your chance!


Today, we are stepping into a game design meeting and looking at how decisions are made.





The stakes for this meeting were pretty high: in the balance, the main gameplay attributes of the Umbral Choir. The ES2 Game Design team had created two visions of the faction, both ambitious and bold new designs, but each had its drawbacks. Today's meeting was about which vision the team would eventually go for, with Spacetroll making the final call. Let's take a closer look at them!



Vision 1: The Hidden Approach (Umbral Choir's Ghillie Suits)


The hidden approach is about playing as tall as possible, kind of like Endless Legend's Cultists. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • Population merging, allowing the Umbral Choir to keep "growing" while remaining withing the confines of a set system
  • This set system is their unique system, hidden from the rest of the galaxy. In case of emergency, this system can be evacuated
  • The faction relies on a mix of "haunts" (all names between brackets are placeholders), which are systems secretly settled by the Umbral Choir but appear empty, and "traitors" that siphon resources off of the systems they have infiltrated



Vision 2: The Disguise Approach (Umbral Choir's Enemy Uniform)


The disguise approach is about pretending to be another faction, and blending in with them. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • The ability to disguise its systems & fleets like somebody else's, and mess up diplomacy
  • Systems that start in a "virtual" state and need to be disguised into somebody else's to become "physical" systems
  • Fleet construction is only possible on systems that have a physical presence
  • Otherwise normal number of systems and economy



At these stages, the two visions sound amazing and we can picture the way they would play out. When you can picture yourself picking up this faction and defeating your best frenemies? That's when you know you've struck design shinies. Not all that glitters is gold, though, and both of these have drawbacks, either in terms of gameplay, or in terms of production. Some of them are more significant that others. Remember: if it's a cool idea but it's almost impossible to make, it's not a cool idea, it's a cool dream.


Let's play a game, you and I. Grab a piece of paper, or open Notepad. Put on your thinking cap. Look at each vision above, and find a couple of pros and cons for it. We'll see under the break below if you've found the same reasons why each design can work, and can be problematic, as our designer team.





Here is a picture of Jhell holding a bunch of knives, just so you don't see our answers by accident.

He looks so happy!



Happy with your answers? Alright, let's look at what you got. Well, sorry, we can't *actually* do that, share your findings in the comments if you want to compare notes. Here's what we found for each vision.



Vision 1: Hide-&-Seek Superchampions

Pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall


Vision 2: Masters of Disguise

Pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


As you can see, each proposition had pros and cons. The first one was very innovative, and the designers really wanted to try and design a tall faction as this is a recurring demand from the community, but the inherent "hidden" nature of the gameplay created other risks, like passivity, or a lack of interactions with other players.

On the other hand, the second approach was way more agressive in the playstyle, in a subtle way (not Hissho or Cravers-like). However, this came with other constraints that didn’t allow the faction to have a very asymmetrical economy, and with the risk of having a high AI dependency for this approach to succeed. Therefore, we decided to try our hand at innovation and go for the hidden approach!


The next step was to tackle the identified problems: how do you make a hidden faction confront others and hold territory on the map? The answer came naturally with the feature we’ve chosen for spying, and that we hope you’ll like. We can’t give away too much, but we can at least let you know it will mainly take place in the scan view. It’s totally possibe that the UC’s territory will be more prominent in scan view than in galaxy view… but we still have a lot of work and testing to do before we can tell you that for sure.



More on gameplay in a few months... and more on the Umbral Choir next time, with a blog in which we'll show you how we created the art of the faction!



Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Copied to clipboard!
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 1:35:44 PM

first vision going to be soooo interesting, i cant wait!

0Send private message
6 years ago
Nov 29, 2018, 3:13:31 AM

I love you guys, but you've really got to do something about making the AI understand the systems it uses better.  Halfway through a game, the AI just falls apart vs. a human on normal and hard.  Please, please put more effort into the AI so we don't need to rathet it up to insanely cheaty mode for competition.  


Note - I'm not even that good of a strategy gamer.

0Send private message
6 years ago
Oct 1, 2018, 8:17:24 AM

I think a race that is virtual in beeing sound really cool


Beeing able to manipulate and spread insecurity over some sort of propaganda into other players systems.


Also able to take over planets via overthrowing the goverment and controlling them behind the scenes... (kind of like a puppet planet)

To play like you are the one big baddy in the chair that controlls everything without ever be seen.


The virtual aspect is so that this race could only have one home system and have almost unlimited population there due to them only beeing data.

They could be a sideproduct to the sophons enfer who broke free

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 29, 2018, 8:02:16 PM

An idea that could be fun for the hidden approach : As they can settle systems without beeing noticed, they could be focus on expantion victory by making traitors systems counting as colonized systems. So they conquer all systems of the galaxy even if these systems seem to be in control of other factions.


As for their secret start-system it can be :

-a system outsid of any constellation (it allow to have a special system fitting with the faction, with a special strating planet, as for other factions, but it mean that exploration may be complicated without some modification on the UC tech-tree).

-a system with no special starting planete, just randomly choose in the galaxy (easier to balance for exploration but how to adapte the conquest victory ? By making a ordinary planete into a special starting planete, but hidden for other players ?).

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 29, 2018, 12:48:12 PM

A thought, in regards to the UC disguise.


A big deal in this game is population management.  What if the UC have the ability to sneak their population into other planets, which then masquerade as the core race of the owner?   These populations would appear exactly the same, but would only give HALF the resources to the system owner; The other half goes back to the UC player.  An attentative player might notice something from the bookkeeping early, but it needs to be sneaky enough for the UC to not be weakened at the start.  If the UC player then finally decides "I want that system", when they invade, their hidden population participates in the battle, either sabotaging their host (possibly disabling conscription, or weakening the enemy force), or joining in on the side of the UC.  Either way, the host system owner doesn't have as strong a defense as they thought they did.  


They would place these populations in host planets using infiltrator ships that are invisible, except to probes (Early way of figuring out you might have an incoming problem).  Once revealed by a probe, an infiltrator would be visible until it leaves the borders of the empire that discovered it.  If the ship is discovered outside the border, then it will only be visible for one turn.  This allows someone who is attentative with their explorers to possibly counter the UC, but lets face it.  If you build nothing but explorers to fend of UC, then you're going to be slightly weaker military wise.  There's a tradeoff there.


Once in place, these hidden populations just do their thing, sending both resources and information back to the UC player, unless they are "Discovered"


Possible limitations, fun stuff, and counter play suggestions.


1.  We already have the curiosity detection techs.  Make these the way to discover UC populations on worlds, with the UC having cooresponding techs to increase their ability to hide, and a special "Signal" curiosity popping up on the system if their detection level ever exceeds the infiltration level of the UC.  They can never hide from the best curiosity scanning tech.  This would make them weak against science heavy races, but strong against those that aren't as invested in research.  If the owner tries to move a UC pop (They of course think it's one of theirs), depending on the situation, one of two things would happen.


a.  They instead move one of their own real pop instead, none the wiser about what happened.  The UC would never be on a specific planet for this btw...it would just be a matter of tracking, for example "Of 9 UE population in this system, 2 are actually UC".  Whenever the actual UE player in this case, grabbed a UE pop to move to another system, they'd ALWAYS grab one of their real UE, unless of course...there are no more real UE population.


b.  If there are no more real core population, then the UC would be "discovered", and would turn into a fleet with a number of infiltrator ships equal to the population discovered.  This fleet would be visible until it leaves the boundaries of the host empire.



2.   If at any point the system owner moves the last non-UC population out of the system, such that it is populated by nothing but UC (no minor races, no assimilated races), then the UC would instantly convert the world to their own, similar to a diplomatic conversion.  I could also see techs allowing UC populations to "assasinate" or sneakily replace core populations with their own, slowly achieving this end result.  This would be "finding out the hard way" that you have a UC parasite problem.


So in summary.


Hides population on non-UC worlds, sending resources an info to UC player, and assists in invasion combat when the UC player decides they want the system.

Can take over system entirely if it's the only population left.  Possible techs to replace core populations with UC population.

Can be "discovered" if infiltrator ships are spotted by probes, or if the curiosity level of the host population exceeds the infiltration rating of the hidden population.



Thoughts?



Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 29, 2018, 12:29:22 PM

non agressive playstyle you say? Hmm, I would like that feature introduced myself. As far as I can see practically all factions end up killing each other =D

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 25, 2018, 4:45:06 PM

Vision 1: The Hidden Approach 


Suggestions:  Perhaps the UC are so Incomprehensible that enemies cannot exactly figure out which system is their home system.  Maybe the UC are so advanced they are able to create shield systems that lure enemies to them and masquarade as the home system, but are just a clever distraction.  This could even induce some sort of Madness in the enemies that effect their gameplay with a malus.



Vision 2: The Disguise Approach 


Suggestions: Maybe the UC aren't only able to mimic other factions, but also minor factions and even Weather-like anomalies.  This would make enemy players very suspicious of all features of a planet, knowing that any of them could be the UC in disguise.  Perhaps this could require an advanced technology to perform a more thorough scan, like when you do a security check on cities in EL.


0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 24, 2018, 6:38:31 AM

I feel like Switzerland it.... should be called Switzerland if we go with option A)


Option B) Oh yea... thats the one.  Always the hard way. 


and @ Lo Fabre :P LOL

0Send private message
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 21, 2018, 10:33:49 AM

I propose also some Necron "Tomb Worlds" /War of the Worlds/Genestealer Cult/Skaven inspiration


Some systems at random sould be "virtually colonized" from the get-go as in they are secretly UC worlds from aeons past. This would be lore friendly "they predate Endless, super snmeaky, yada yada" and would help if their homeworld were too from other nations to influence.


There would be 2 phases:

slumbering

awakening


1. Slumber: They cannot produce anything but UC pops haunts that could sneakily siphon resources from the planet that is still officialy notcolonized to their Homeworld (akin to Hissho Ancestral Reverence mechanics) or use it to upgrade their system.

In this secret state they would at least built those pops but could also built improvements and units from - simple secret infrastructure or entire underground cities and undergroundarmy(manpower resource). No spaceships. So far so good.

Then a poor enemy colonizes this system. Your white-haunts turn in to yellow-traitors, akin to Cravers-Slaver Cravers dichotomy and leech unto enemy, giving you more boost as the system advances ABOVEground, all the while enemy doesnt suspect a thing but a HIDDEN "inefficiency" malus that is scaling with hidden UC colony under and official enemy colony above. 


Enemy can uncover you with some techs (with high enough Curiosity Detection Levels and Expedition Powers) or you can enhance your chances with the same tech that would prevent uncovering. 

Dev Choice - allow them to have ultimately last word with faction-specific detection immunity? as a a tech 5? (and have a tech to detect other UC players)


If it's uncovered - a ground battle/invasion follows, as a compulsory awakening is taking place. 

If you lose - the defendant gets science boost and pillage race-specific rewards, your system is razed and open for occupation. Basically a variant of conquering a pirate system.

You win - the system is awakened from now on (and could be hidden once again to lure another empire) with entire enemy inftrastructure not usable to you, barring wonders etc as UC has separate improvements table, but is usable to virtually every other standard race, as in hunting grounds.


or


2. you could just straight up awaken your system from the get-go and have full capabilities as other races in building your system, while having physical colonizers and more options.


Either virtual(slumbering) and physical(awakened) systems produce special influence-zone where you can send UC "traitors" (yellow coloured variant of pops, like Slaver Cravers) to enemy-colonized worlds to start subverting them or regular-white coloured "haunts" to pristine worlds to start building secret colonies underneath to make 1 then 2. 

Home system can be awakened for bigger influence or stay hidden and be a "quest" noncolonizable system for all, away from starlanes, unless forcefully uncovered by enemy.

Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 21, 2018, 4:52:23 AM

The next step was to tackle the identified problems: how do you make a hidden faction confront others and hold territory on the map? The answer came naturally with the feature we’ve chosen for spying, and that we hope you’ll like. We can’t give away too much, but we can at least let you know it will mainly take place in the scan view. It’s totally possibe that the UC’s territory will be more prominent in scan view than in galaxy view… but we still have a lot of work and testing to do before we can tell you that for sure.

So what about if the UC can take over a system. If it can siphon resources, why not just take it all and basically control it? It could appear as if the planet had really bad production which could make the AI or player create more infrastructure and the UC can just bask in all the resources they have gained. Now how to get rid of them frm your system is something I am too lazy to think of at 3 in the morning so Ill just get back to studing for chemistry quizzes and stuff.

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 10:29:12 PM

I too enjoyed the thought of the first one more than the second. The asymmetrical faction thing is absolutely what Amplitude is best at (the biggest selling point of the Endless games, outside the aesthetic and world building) so I can't wait to see what they've come up with!


The second also would depend pretty heavily on AI/player interaction. If you got the positioning and such of your systems and fleets just so then you might be able to fool a player, but otherwise nope. And I don't know if the AI can really handle being "fooled" in a satisfactory way. Would you really have been able to do Illuminati shenanigans and incite - or sway - wars between them, and have it feel as intended? Or would it just come off as you being able to simply wipe away both other factions but choosing one bc that's how your faction works?

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 8:42:11 PM

When I read about "population merging" I thought that this would be an awesome idea for Tall playstyle for every faction, not just the UC. 


As I have said in my "making tall playstyle viable" thread, we do need more opportunities for empires to develop their systems. If all empires could merge their pops into bigger pops per system, food would finally be more useful and you could have a choice between sending your population away, or merging them and having bigger FIDSI because of % bonuses that way!

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 7:40:58 PM

The Disguise Approach could be fun, but very hard to play and, indeed, very agressive. The hidden approach looks easier to play and very "ghostly". I prefer this one.


But having one doesn't mean that nothing in the other may be intresting.^^

0Send private message
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 1:41:57 PM

I personally like the idea of vision 1 more as I'd enjoy a more subtrafuge faction one that allows mind games etc like how the Mowgar and Forgotten worked in EL.


A few ideas I have had are:

1.have starting system dissconected to everyone and hidden so you would need to scout it with probes to find it and even then it wouldnt be obviouse that UC are there

2.have UC start with warp travel so they can get out of thier system

3.maybe have thier scout ships be invisible requireing a new detection building or something present to reveal them

4.maybe have thier fleets invisble as well unless they do some form of interaction but weaker than other empires equivilant ships so you would want to flank systems or ambush ships and weaker armadas this would allow for gaurilla tactics.

5.have a privateer esc function that allows you to hide your fleets as pirates much like the vaulters can do so no one knows if it is you or not

6.Be able to cause dissent on planets etc(rebbellions) and then mind control the rebels much like morgawr do with cats paw/dissent

7.Since they are ment to be aincent and hidden allow them to know the start locations of all empires like how the drakken/ameboa did this would allow them to plan where to send spies.

8.Maybe give them a higher cap on thier blockade bonus so that they can generate more income with thier hidden/disgused(privateers) to also add to thier subtrafuge and stealthy tall status.

9.To encourage tall play maybe give them a bunch of very strong buildings but massive expansion penalty like how the Ally function in EL

0Send private message
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 9:03:56 AM

I really love the first idea and I m glad you decided in favour of it! Tactics to play factions tall is the one thing still missing in ES2 in my opinion. So I cannot wait to try out the new faction! :)

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:47:59 AM

APOLOGY: Sorry of the spam of posts, I don't wanna make one post too long, and I'm just kinda stream-of-conscious-ing this right now.


My best idea is to combine the two visions.  Make them have a tall capital, but the ability to create toggleable systems between "virtual/physical."  But give them also "haunts"


To make this work, UC systems must have pretty weak dust production, and they must rely on their "haunts" to siphon dust off of other factions (and possibly minor factions?).  This turns them into a combination of EL's Cultists and Forgotten.  "Virtual" systems have less population slots than their "physical" counterparts, making them less efficient economically, but better tactically.  Virtual systems may be colonized by enemies and placed on already colonized enemy systems.  "Haunts" siphon FIDSI, and every turn there is a percentage chance that the afflicted player will receive a notification hinting that there is a haunt at the afflicted planet.  "Virtual" systems siphon only dust and no notification is given to the afflicted player (unless they check their detailed dust output and see they are losing dust to "mysterious causes")


This would make their standard gameplay proceed like this:  They start on their home system (possibly not connected to a constellation except for a wormhole node  that the UC can use from the start that leads to a single system)  They can play early game like most other factions, expanding by placing colonies that eventually turn into virtual colonies.  If the UC player is certain no enemy is nearby, they can toggle their innermost systems into physical systems to benefit from the extra population (or possibly a FIDSI boost) if an enemy scout is approaching, and the UC player wants to remain unseen, it can toggle those systems into virtual systems, rendering them invisible to the scouts.  When another faction is met, the UC player has options.  They could do nothing, or start placing haunts to boost their economy.  If the majority of their systems are virtual, then they might fall behind.  This makes a possible counter-UC tactic to be continuously scouting and not letting them have physical systems for long periods of time.  The UC player can get around this by placing haunts.  If another faction is close, the UC could opt to place a Virtual colony on an enemy system.  This allows the UC to build up a colony is secret.  By using force, the UC player can force another faction off of a system that already has a virtual colony.  This has the advantage of transforming this virtual colony into a physical colony, therefore granting the UC player the possibility to have a fully furnished forward base immediately after removing another player's colony.


In general, there are two dominant playstyles this works well for.  If players are used to a more aggressive style, they can play it that way, by placing Virtual colonies on enemy systems and attempting to snowball their opponent with a series of quick forward outposts.  Or, more uniquely and more suited to experienced players, the UC could play like a Venus Flytrap.  By not revealing oneself and allowing opponents to expand into one's territory, the UC player can lull their opponents into a false sense of security, only to swiftly snap on them when their attention is elsewhere and when they are least expecting it.  This setup gives the UC a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling.

Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:13:40 AM

 have an idea on how to make vision 1 less passive.  These people predate the Endless right?  So perhaps they lack the affinity for dust that the Endless bestowed upon other factions (one way or another).  So their Haunts, on their own, have miserably low dust production (their capital must have normal dust production to compensate) but they can use the "traitors" to also subtly siphon dust off of enemy planets.  The enemy would not get a notification that they are being siphoned, they would just have to check up on their detailed breakdown of dust income and see that they are losing dust to "mysterious causes" or something like that.


As for vision 2, it doesn't need to be an "aggressive" playstyle, but it can be.  If the UC systems have a 1 turn production item that toggles them from a "virtual" to a "physical" system, then it allows the UC to expand unseen, but briefly appear to produce a fleet, then hide again.  Let's say that enemies can colonize on a "virtual" UC colony.  Similar to vision 1, the FIDSI of that system would be siphoned to the "virtual" colony, but it loses the ability to transform into a "physical" colony.  Therefore on smaller maps where an opponent is expanding rapidly, say a UE or a Riftborn, then the UC has the option to play defensively, by revealing themselves into a "physical" colony to stop enemy expansion.


I love the idea of the "virtual/physical" toggle, but my biggest issue with vision 2 is the player interface.  How will UC players choose who they disguise as, or will it be random?  Will UC vessels be disguised in the battle simulations?  That might prove difficult to implement, as the layout (and therefore capabilities) of UC vessels will no doubt differ from those they are trying to impersonate.  If the results of a battle are calculated by the simulation, then implementation of that idea might be impossible, but if the simulation just shows the results of the calculations, then its possible to make this happen.


Honestly, I'd prefer vision 2, just as long as we nix the whole idea about disguising.  The togglable hidden systems idea makes them sufficiently unique in terms of gameplay, but not so unique that they would be difficult to pick up and play.

0Send private message
?

Click here to login

Reply
Comment