Three Moves Ahead did a revisit after the Galactic Statecraft update, and they have quite a few concerns about the game

https://www.idlethumbs.net/3ma/episodes/endless-space-2-revisited

Float wrote:

Three Moves Ahead did a revisit after the Galactic Statecraft update, and they have quite a few concerns about the game

https://www.idlethumbs.net/3ma/episodes/endless-space-2-revisited

I've never really like TMA and this podcast is just another example of why. They're far too cynical for me, especially on 4X games. 

That being said, some of the criticism is legit and probably the only things holding ES2 back from mainstream success, i.e. the sometimes "lonely" feeling of ES2, the AI, and the occasional "endless messages" issue. 

DevildogFF wrote:

I've never really like TMA and this podcast is just another example of why. They're far too cynical for me, especially on 4X games. 

That being said, some of the criticism is legit and probably the only things holding ES2 back from mainstream success, i.e. the sometimes "lonely" feeling of ES2, the AI, and the occasional "endless messages" issue. 

Rather than cynicism I would call it more exhaustion with how MoO, 20 years later, still constrains the space 4x genre. Luke Plunkett still likes the game and Rob Zacny really wants to like it more, they even call it the best of the current generation. But both want ES2 to go beyond and advanced the genre, like Endless Legend did.

I think the main issue with space 4x is the lack of geography, of terrain - the problem with vast empty space that they mention. Terrain is one of the things that makes EL really good and distinctive, for instance. But I have no real idea how to deal with that when it comes to space.

Float wrote:

DevildogFF wrote:

I've never really like TMA and this podcast is just another example of why. They're far too cynical for me, especially on 4X games. 

That being said, some of the criticism is legit and probably the only things holding ES2 back from mainstream success, i.e. the sometimes "lonely" feeling of ES2, the AI, and the occasional "endless messages" issue. 

Rather than cynicism I would call it more exhaustion with how MoO, 20 years later, still constrains the space 4x genre. Luke Plunkett still likes the game and Rob Zacny really wants to like it more, they even call it the best of the current generation. But both want ES2 to go beyond and advanced the genre, like Endless Legend did.

I think the main issue with space 4x is the lack of geography, of terrain - the problem with vast empty space that they mention. Terrain is one of the things that makes EL really good and distinctive, for instance. But I have no real idea how to deal with that when it comes to space.

I disagree. Lack of terrain is not a problem. It is simply something that isn't a factor in space games. I keep coming back to my favorite space 4x title SOTS when I see comments like these. And to me the answer is always to embrace what a literal universe of possibilities can offer. Sword of the Stars had no quests, no building of structures on planets and no curiosity scanning. But it did have a universe full of variety. There were ancient and powerful remnants of past civilizations from religous Heralds of the apocalypse to swarms of autonomous insect-like drones whose original function was lost and now only want to multiply, to massive world killers and rogue AI. All of this stuff was there to make you change your tactics, alter research choices and ship designs and ally with other factions if you wanted to survive. The universe felt alive and like it wanted to kill you.

In addition to that, diplomacy made sense. First contact with another space faring species was a time of tension with each side having to make a choice of shooting first or waiting to see if the other side would. Then came research into how to communicate with another completely different race. Their language and culture and deciding if you wanted to pursue peace or just a temporary cease-fire so you could deal with another hostile race. It is still one of the simplest and best diplomatic systems I have seen to date. The AI has yet to make me feel like it actions are illogical. 

I DO agree that MOO/MOO 2 has been the security blanket of too many space 4x games. Its past time to start thinking outside that box. Space 4x games should be filling a new player with wonder in a way that terrestrial 4x games cannot because those games are terrain limited and scope limited. Space is about thinking on a huge galactic scale and all the weird and terrible possibilities that can bring. Space 4xs should not really play like terrestrial ones, but we keep somehow forcing those types of mechanics. Hell...all modern 4x games still use flat maps...in space! 

I be very interested to see what TotalBiscuit thinks of the game. I would love to see people like BlueDrake42 review it, but  he isn't really into 4X, sadly. If i didn't have so many political videos to make, id be making a positive review right now. While I personally i have a high opinion of the game at this point, i it would be better to get reviews from people who have a long record of honesty. Some on that list were involved in some rather serious dishonesty in the past, GameJournoPros anyone?

I'm just going to go a little bit off topic here to comment about 3D map in 4x games. The humans are able to understand concepts like matter in space&time, It's more difficult to reflect this idea on a 2D screen or paper. We understand things like depth because of eyes and inner ear as we already observed in real life but bringing this to a 2D "map" would bring lots of complications. Complications starting from how to make a 3D interface, map modes to giving simple move order. A true 3D working brain wouldn't need a list of things to read it would be like unlocking a new way of learning and we still store information in 2D concepts.

Homeworld was working because It was an action strategy game. All we do was selecting units and clicking on another. Innovative that was, it wasn't fun as it looked. Even only a basic resource gathering and unit spamming strategy game was enough to make people go sick. It was ahead of is time and still is. Imagine all the depth of endless space in a 3D interface.

By how the current progress of our storing information is progressing I say maybe in another 1000-1500 years we would be "able" to have fun 3D 4x games. I think Endless Space 2 creates enough illusion with the lines.

Let me finish this, with a scene from I think one of the top10 sci-fy movies of all time: Contact. https://youtu.be/ePa6eUxhkYo?t=4m43s