I feel their power is heavily based on with what system you can find at the start. I'm sure on smaller galaxy sizes, the turns spent looking for a good system will harm them as you go up in difficulty. I tried them out on a 10 player sized Spiral-6 on Serious and found a five planet system with great anomalies, both starting strategics and Redsang within a few turns. I'm only 120 turns in, but the game has been a breeze from there. I feel the ability to get an amazing home system is just as important as their portals, but that's all down to luck. 

I'd have to play a few more games to really give a verdict. Other posts have highlighted weaknesses they have that I haven't come across yet. They're very fun though; the Argosy is probably one of my favourite faction abilities, next to gene splicing.

I would not call them OP. The portals are a nice feature for sure, but the upkeep can drain the economy rather fast if we don't have a good supply of dust. Personally what i really do like is the versatility of their ship's slots; lots of support modules so we can make some crazy design. I really like their scouts, lots of probes :). Didn't find much use for the privateers, the AI love to make truces with the pirates so by extension we can't attack factions in NAP with them.

I found the privateers option to be really useful for engaging in assorted dickery with AI civs. Like, turning any planet they settle near your borders into your hunting ground. Or, load them up with boarding pods and send them out to get you a fleet. In my first game in the leaked DLC, I managed to assemble an entire Craver fleet of hunters and coordinators from the captured spoils of war. Then, I parked that very fleet (disguised as privateers) over his home system for 10 turns, then took it and turned it into hunting grounds. All without ever declaring war :) 

fgalkin wrote:

I found the privateers option to be really useful for engaging in assorted dickery with AI civs. Like, turning any planet they settle near your borders into your hunting ground. Or, load them up with boarding pods and send them out to get you a fleet. In my first game in the leaked DLC, I managed to assemble an entire Craver fleet of hunters and coordinators from the captured spoils of war. Then, I parked that very fleet (disguised as privateers) over his home system for 10 turns, then took it and turned it into hunting grounds. All without ever declaring war :) 

I guess that is the way to do it. Also, blocading a system with an outpost get rid of that outpost in one turn (no supply, they die out), doing it with privateers might be a good way to hold back the competion without the diplomatic consequenses... 

Foraven wrote:

fgalkin wrote:

I found the privateers option to be really useful for engaging in assorted dickery with AI civs. Like, turning any planet they settle near your borders into your hunting ground. Or, load them up with boarding pods and send them out to get you a fleet. In my first game in the leaked DLC, I managed to assemble an entire Craver fleet of hunters and coordinators from the captured spoils of war. Then, I parked that very fleet (disguised as privateers) over his home system for 10 turns, then took it and turned it into hunting grounds. All without ever declaring war :) 

I guess that is the way to do it. Also, blocading a system with an outpost get rid of that outpost in one turn (no supply, they die out), doing it with privateers might be a good way to hold back the competion without the diplomatic consequenses... 

Hell, if you really want to keep your opponent from expanding, you can park a fleet in their territory, and every time they build a colony ship, you can chase it down and kill it (you have 2 utility slots on even the basic attackers and protectors, which can give you speed 10 with hyperium engines). Unfortunately, the Unfallen AI almost always seems to sign a non-aggression pact with the pirates, so you won't be able to kill vineships that way, but the Vodyani AI usually doesn't. Of course, the Vodyani AI is so weak anyway, that crippling it even more just seems cruel....   

Ugh. Privateers. (makes an elaborate, nay ritualistic, series of frustrated noises)

nuclearrussian74 wrote:

i3ackero wrote:

I played them several days ago and I realized they are a bit overpowered, but maybe I was just lucky with good systems around me. Okay. But yesterday I played a multiplayer game as Voulters. There were 6 players and 2 of them were Vaulters. We (Vaulters) had no problems with points income and left other players far away.

I think the colonization is too easy, cheap and fast and gates are availale too early or should be limited by any way.

What galaxy generation settings did you use?

You mean type? I went with random and I got an eight spiral. The teleportation ability with minor factions meant I was not as constricted for expansion.

BlimBurn wrote:

So far I think they're the second worse faction on the game next to vodyani... quite dissapointed tbh.

Vodyani frustrate me. The AI seems, on occasion, very ruthless with them. But I tried them once and was very unimpressed.

Imo, the Vaulters is a balanced faction to play with. Slow colonization early, not-that-amazing traits and slow population growth are fair setbacks for a good defense network/science output. The ship models are fine.

It's a plauseble strategy to assimilate minor factions to expand in the early game. And their systems do count as core-systems, so extra approval!

The only weird thing is that i always find some nice unique planets (Tor, Teonha or Bilgeli) on a awkwardly high frequency. Everything else is OK.

I still think Sophons are better overall cause you don't have some weird mechanic to use their full strength (such as :gather essence, deplete-management, vine-growth, etc). Just tech up all the way to science victory and think about how to survive, waiting the (boring) victory screen.

Suis3i wrote:

You'd have to run more test games as the Vaulters before coming to that assumption lol

This is b/c Endless Space 2 is designed so each experience can have vastly different circumstances

So far the best answer in this thread.

Kingu wrote:

I feel their power is heavily based on with what system you can find at the start. I'm sure on smaller galaxy sizes, the turns spent looking for a good system will harm them as you go up in difficulty. I tried them out on a 10 player sized Spiral-6 on Serious and found a five planet system with great anomalies, both starting strategics and Redsang within a few turns. I'm only 120 turns in, but the game has been a breeze from there. I feel the ability to get an amazing home system is just as important as their portals, but that's all down to luck. 

I'd have to play a few more games to really give a verdict. Other posts have highlighted weaknesses they have that I haven't come across yet. They're very fun though; the Argosy is probably one of my favourite faction abilities, next to gene splicing.

Still on my first game. Everything is pretty much set on normal when it comes to Galaxy Generation. In this game I have to manage a lot of bad systems. Mainly, I've taken 3 planet systems (got one 5) and even a 2 planet system because of Strategics and Luxury Ressources. Gameplay-wise it feels as if these Systems are stepping stones to discover the Galaxy further. It feels interesting to play and is challenging. 

A couple of really good Systems and I probably wouldn't feel this way. The entire feeling would be different and it's likely that I'd feel like some in this thread who find Vaulters to be OP:

I just replay it again.

This time, it was totally hard. When Titanium & Hyperium are scarce, they are seriously hard to play.

At late game 2 of my systems almost got absorbed by Lumeris, I need to be constantly at war with them.

nuyu wrote:

I just replay it again.

This time, it was totally hard. When Titanium & Hyperium are scarce, they are seriously hard to play.

At late game 2 of my systems almost got absorbed by Lumeris, I need to be constantly at war with them.

What can help is getting a couple of Vaulter heroes. One of the early skills for the Vaulter affinity on heroes is free titanium/hyperium generation, meaning you can get a steady supply of it even if you find none.

Kray wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

You'd have to run more test games as the Vaulters before coming to that assumption lol

This is b/c Endless Space 2 is designed so each experience can have vastly different circumstances

So far the best answer in this thread.

Thanks Dude 

One thing i noticed playing the vaulters is i'm always stranded for dust (ie have to sell stuff all the time to make up for the dust drain). The portals may be cheap to build but they come with a high maintenance so it's not a good idea to build them everywhere. Also found out while playing that while the Argosy gives easy colonisation, to keep up with other factions we have to actually invade. The buff to ground combat is really helpful at that.

PotatoesAreBland wrote:

I am worried the Vaulters are a little over powered.

It was my first time playing on Endless difficulty, and, yes I did some save scumming to compensate for mistakes like sending a fleet to it's death, and, selling the wrong luxaries. And a few times just because I was frustrated by being in an alliance but also loosing lots of resources to diplomatic pressure. But I won for the first time on Endless difficulty.

You'd have to run more test games as the Vaulters before coming to that assumption lol

This is b/c Endless Space 2 is designed so each experience can have vastly different circumstances

Also what pirate difficulty you were playing, how many factions there were, the galaxy size, resource scarcity, etc can all change how strong each faction will be during that game. 

As for me both Vaulters in EL and ES2 are overpowered. They sync way too well with my science and defensive play style.

I'm not a veteran players here, but from my point of view, for late game power house I vote to Horatio & Cravers

I've not played them much yet, but I think they are OK so far.

The teleportation ability is amazing though so I understand that it might be OP :D

Maybe disable teleportation until system level 2 or slightly increase the cost of building one. I'm not really in favor of tweaking their core mechanics now, but those might viable ideas if Vaulters appear to be too overpowered in the long run :)

My issue with the vaulters thus far is exactly the diplomatic pressure and small borders. On higher difficulties, they suffer from being swallowed by in by influence, and short of declaring war, you can only ask nicely to stop converting systems. 

So far I think they're the second worse faction on the game next to vodyani... quite dissapointed tbh.

i3ackero wrote:

I played them several days ago and I realized they are a bit overpowered, but maybe I was just lucky with good systems around me. Okay. But yesterday I played a multiplayer game as Voulters. There were 6 players and 2 of them were Vaulters. We (Vaulters) had no problems with points income and left other players far away.

I think the colonization is too easy, cheap and fast and gates are availale too early or should be limited by any way.

What galaxy generation settings did you use?

Devs need more technology tree and explore. VAULTERS good DLS Thank you Developers!

The Vaulter early game is amazing, but I wouldnt argue the point that they're overpowered. Their traits besides the unique colonization ship aren't that good (-15% food, empire happiness only when within core-world limit, and early piracy, which doesnt have a use other than to get around a peace you signed too early). Their main pop is a tuned-down Sophon while their minor pop is likewise a tuned-down Horatio - planetary-defence damage bonus is a a bonus for winning a loser's game (even if they take ages to take your planets, you're already crippled when this happens to you. And if not, it's just a very minor advantage). They don't have anything unique for pulling ahead in the mid-game after their golden ages other than the portals feature (so you can maybe colonize more riskily, but a lone planet near another empire's influence blob is still a ticking time bomb you have to deal with).

If we're comparing how well they do on Endless difficulty, I'd argue Cravers are still the easiest. You don't need to save scum as it just involves getting the quest cruiser, then invading everyone and all minor factions in sight as you snowball with the front-loaded FIDSI you get from their traits and superior CP. It certainly doesn't seem like Vaulters are any more overpowered than a human-controlled Craver that priotitizes sensible tech choices and manages the depletion/approval mechanic properly.

Ridiculi wrote:

I think the easiest way to balance them a bit would be to increase the resource and industry cost of portals, or make it a system improvment that unlocks once you've unlocked the spaceport (I have the technology to teleport my ships over any distance, but I can't send civilians from one system to another? How does that work?)

I think another way to balance them would be to decrease the amount the "Golden Age" bar increases each turn as well as how long it takes to get a free colonization.  Golden Ages are an interesting mechanic, but I think if you make it take much longer to completely fill, players will be more likely to spend the extra dust and resources to colonize early and it will take many more resources to colonize as well as they do now.

Golden Age per turn decreases everytime it activates until it reaches a point-per-turn of 0.8

It's already vastly reduced and reducing it anymore would make it pointless to have the mechanic in the game (more on that below).

The Golden Age helps negate the effects of the Black Thumb II that the Vaulters suffer from and since it's temporary and to get a maximum Golden Age once it @ a .8per turn you need to wait 37.5 turns for a 30 turn Golden Age, Furthermore, early game Vaulters do suffer from colonization issues, as they only get 1 ship (the Argosy) that is active every 8 turns, less than the average 3-6 turn colonization ship cost of other empires. And unless you're swimming in resources early on (which probably means you're playing at a lower difficulty or had an amazing start) the Vaulters have to wait for the Argosy to be at 6 turns or less on the restocked bar, to cost-effectivily colonize systems. The Extra dust to colonize early also increases with inflation, and once total dust in circulation goes into the 10s of thousands, it becomes economically unwise to spend that on colonzing a system a few turns early. 

For portals, they're counted as an intial item (same as Drone Networks and VR), which is why the cost is far lower than other system improvements. 

SirBagel wrote:

The Vaulter early game is amazing, but I wouldnt argue the point that they're overpowered. Their traits besides the unique colonization ship aren't that good (-15% food, empire happiness only when within core-world limit, and early piracy, which doesnt have a use other than to get around a peace you signed too early). Their main pop is a tuned-down Sophon while their minor pop is likewise a tuned-down Horatio - planetary-defence damage bonus is a a bonus for winning a loser's game (even if they take ages to take your planets, you're already crippled when this happens to you. And if not, it's just a very minor advantage). They don't have anything unique for pulling ahead in the mid-game after their golden ages other than the portals feature (so you can maybe colonize more riskily, but a lone planet near another empire's influence blob is still a ticking time bomb you have to deal with).

If we're comparing how well they do on Endless difficulty, I'd argue Cravers are still the easiest. You don't need to save scum as it just involves getting the quest cruiser, then invading everyone and all minor factions in sight as you snowball with the front-loaded FIDSI you get from their traits and superior CP. It certainly doesn't seem like Vaulters are any more overpowered than a human-controlled Craver that priotitizes sensible tech choices and manages the depletion/approval mechanic properly.

I'd agree with Sir Bagel. Cravers are still the strongest early-mid game faction on Endless Difficulty (the only difficulty I play at) 

Suis3i wrote:

Golden Age per turn decreases everytime it activates until it reaches a point-per-turn of 0.8

It's already vastly reduced and reducing it anymore would make it pointless to have the mechanic in the game (more on that below).

I wasn't aware of that, I stand corrected :P

Ridiculi wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

Golden Age per turn decreases everytime it activates until it reaches a point-per-turn of 0.8

It's already vastly reduced and reducing it anymore would make it pointless to have the mechanic in the game (more on that below).

I wasn't aware of that, I stand corrected :P

Lmao, yeah I found out when the Vautlers were accidentally release early, trust me it's such a pain to go from 1.8 per turn to .8