If I'd said +0% for 0% MP -> +25% for 100% MP, anybody would be fine with this idea :/ :/ :/

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

There is allready an additional +10% food to manpower generation. It is hidden in the science discoveries from Era 2 or 3 (i can't remember).

Seen it. I think this is an empire improvement. Also not sure if this is an "extra" or it alters the original proportion between food fro growth and food for manpower. Never tested.

lo_fabre wrote:

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

There is allready an additional +10% food to manpower generation. It is hidden in the science discoveries from Era 2 or 3 (i can't remember).

Seen it. I think this is an empire improvement. Also not sure if this is an "extra" or it alters the original proportion between food fro growth and food for manpower. Never tested.

I've built it multiple times in the same system, and am not sure that it has any real effect - or any effect beyond the first instance of it. What I think it does is tithe an additional 10% of food generation towards manpower and is intended to stack with itself, so that you can reduce waste food in systems with maxed population. Still, it isn't explained very well and so I can't be sure. That's Early Access for you.

Good call! Yes if your empire manpower is full then the part usually reserved for it is no longer deducted from the system's food.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

Also what if :

- hulls with 0% MP get -25% to HP, to DPS and to move points.

- hulls with 20% MP get -20% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 40% MP get -15% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 60% MP get -10% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 80% MP get -5% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 100% MP gets +0% HP / DPS / move

(rounded up)

Reason would be when Mecanics / Artillery / Navigation crews are full, then your ships works better.

If your ship have bonus to MP modules, then hulls with say 120% MP would get say +5% to HP / DPS / move etc.

By changing HP, non full MP ships would explode easier, so you need more ships, so you consume more MP.

If you needed more and more ships the less you have MP to get the same military job done, then once you goes in the -10% (or another number) malus to growth, then you stay in it.

You can win a war spaming 0 MP ships today, this would nerf this.

Combined with the 1 turn / 10 turn growth nerf, never researching the +10% to MP discovery in Era 2/3 (I forgot. This discovery will give you 1 turn of growth less than all other faction at peace) + 0 MP ship spam + only orbiting ennemy systems is the right method to win a war actually.

This would also give MP generation a lot more importance than today.

Sorry, but I'm against this idea. MP should only be used for invasions, not for ship efficiency. Soldiers are soldiers, not sailors.

Although MP should definitely play a role for boarding actions, although I don't think something like this will be in the game. Although it would be damn cool.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

Also what if :

- hulls with 0% MP get -25% to HP, to DPS and to move points.

- hulls with 20% MP get -20% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 40% MP get -15% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 60% MP get -10% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 80% MP get -5% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 100% MP gets +0% HP / DPS / move

(rounded up)

Reason would be when Mecanics / Artillery / Navigation crews are full, then your ships works better.

If your ship have bonus to MP modules, then hulls with say 120% MP would get say +5% to HP / DPS / move etc.

By changing HP, non full MP ships would explode easier, so you need more ships, so you consume more MP.

If you needed more and more ships the less you have MP to get the same military job done, then once you goes in the -10% (or another number) malus to growth, then you stay in it.

You can win a war spaming 0 MP ships today, this would nerf this.

Combined with the 1 turn / 10 turn growth nerf, never researching the +10% to MP discovery in Era 2/3 (I forgot which era. This discovery 10%-> 20% will give you 1 turn of growth less than all other faction at peace each 5 turns) + 0 MP ship spam + only orbiting ennemy systems is the right method to win a war actually.

This would also give MP generation a lot more importance than today : if you're a war faction, then all-in for production is the right method when MP should have its importance.

-edit- damaged ships should loose MP, also.

If a ship lost 50% of its remaining HP in a battle, then it should loose 50% of remaining MP. This would allow pre-emptive attacks on fleets that you know being invasion fleets.

I also don't agree with this plan but would like to see a mechanic in place that would not allow you to build a ship if you don't have the manpower needed for it.
So that you wouldn't get ghost ships without any crew.
Had a discussion about that in this thread:
https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/22524-turn-60-thoughts

Since this is far future I am sure a lot of system are automated and a very small crew is able to use the ship as well as a full crew.
Specially I don't see why HP should be changed. Crew has nothing to do with that.

There is allready an additional +10% food to manpower generation. It is hidden in the science discoveries from Era 2 or 3 (i can't remember).

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

Then you will continue to 0MP ship spam and passivly invade systems by just orbiting like today :/

There is no point in having full MP ships today if you're not going for direct planet invasion.

There should be at least one thing that makes us say "ok, I REALLY need a MP gaz station". For any ships.

Also, if considering HP damaged ships should loose MP, then you can attack a fleet just to slow it (because if it loose MP, then it would loose HP/DPS/move).

This can be a secondary wargoal even if it's a suicide mission for your small fleet.

Today, if you kill the slowest ship of an ennemy fleet, you actually just made that fleet moving faster, isn't it strange ?

You can only invade them that far. The last bit is always fought by ground troopers, so you just can't conquer without MP. I had lots of fights were even 100 MP in fleets weren't enough to finish off the last defenders of a system. If you try to invade before their local MP goes to 0 it's just gg, really no chance of successful invasion in any case.

However, I agree with having full MP ships for just ship fighting is pointless. That's why I'm waiting for the update which adds the MP modules.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

If I'd said +0% for 0% MP -> +25% for 100% MP, anybody would be fine with this idea :/ :/ :/

Nope!  Nah, not trying to be mean, but I really see MP only as ground forces, nothing else. They really shouldn't play a role in ship fights. However, they can surely benefit in other things than just ground battles to make MP more important.

Only way I'd want MP to have any effect on space battles is if we have Fighters, Bombers and Dropships, with the last one gaining in strength depending on MP compared to target. Would make Fighters more useful by association, and MP would be an important factor for all ships.

I don't see the ships crew as storm troopers and I would rather see ships have 0 manpower without a "drop pod" module or something like that.

But the devs already expressed that is not the plan they have in mind as each ship should be able to invade but with limited capability (you can try to invade with a single exploration ship but will never win).

So what I suggest is this:

- building a ship needs manpower to staff the crew. That would be a one time cost and those would not be able to invade a system or be reflected in any way.

- each ship has room for storm troopers to board the ship and be ready for invasion. The decision if you load them on the ship or not is up to you.

- manpower can be transferred between ships at the cost of an action point from all ships taking part in the transfer.

- as manpower is just additional crew that act like passengers until the invasion it doesn't matter if you have zero or full.

What do you think about that?

This is a good compromise samsonazs, yes. I like that.

This would be a nice solution, but:

- crew should still have a meaning on ship.

So anything with DPS/HP/Move or number of fighters / bombers, or anything related to a boost of some sort would be handy (Exploratory ships : "when crew is full then..." exemple +move. Attacker ship : "when crew is full, then..." exemple +DPS. etc). Or the idea of anyone that got a better idea :)

- damaged ships should loose crew and troops.

- as I don't understand why troops should be automaticly loaded by ships, so they would have to be a ON/OFF switch on the system screen (ON: automaticaly feed the ship's troops, OFF: never feed them). Crew should replenish automatically though. That makes a little more micro but I think it would be OK (compared to today's situation, that switch is alway on ON)

- it's a lot of IRL work to implement and may not be in line with Amplitude's plans.

- I'm not sure about the manpower transfer from ships to ships or from ships to system part of this. I'd like that but it would need a new screen I guess (select ship/fleet A, right click on ship/fleet B that is in the same system and call that screen. On this screen, you could make transfers from fleet A to B, B to A, or A to system if the system is yours, or B to system if the system is yours. Then push an OK/cancel button).

IHMO this should cost you either all move points or 0, (0 would give a right for mistakes until end of turn but makes manpower ship whores a second line asset, whereas with all move points, I like those risking their lives in front lines).

The problem I have with MP is that it's distributed automatically, while I'd like to proiritize it. E.g. I have a fleet that I need to load with MP to assault AI's planet. Indeed, it gets some of the generated MP, but my other orbiting fleets of colonizers, leechers, probe-launchers and others that I don't want to have MP take a huge deal of it, slowing down the load time on my battle fleets.  Same with planets, some of them have different priorities than the others. 

I'd like to have more control over that if possible.

VulpusAlbus wrote:

The problem I have with MP is that it's distributed automatically, while I'd like to proiritize it. E.g. I have a fleet that I need to load with MP to assault AI's planet. Indeed, it gets some of the generated MP, but my other orbiting fleets of colonizers, leechers, probe-launchers and others that I don't want to have MP take a huge deal of it, slowing down the load time on my battle fleets.  Same with planets, some of them have different priorities than the others. 

I'd like to have more control over that if possible.

I agree. Oftentimes, I prefer to have a few "military outpost" kind of systems where I'd like to have precise control of manpower, but I can't. System could definitely stand to use a little more micromanagement there.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

THANK YOU ! :)

Just a question though :

"A part of their growth" is transformed into manpower at a 1:1 ratio.

What is the part of the growth, 

- when the system still have room to generate population : 50% ?

- when the system have no more room for population : 100% ? Or 50% and the rest is wasted ?

Growth is actually how food is called in the files (same way voydanis are vampirilis and lumeries are called venitians <.<) if you are a dev you may call it growth because you are used to, but it's food to players ;)

#theguyfiddlingtoohardwiththefiles

I belive adding a tech that would allow surplus food to get into manpower once you caped your pop would be good

Thanks for the guide! It's pretty helpful to actually understand how the whole MP-system works.

How do we know, though, how much manpower we get out of each food that is automatically consumed for manpower? 1 for each 1?

It is indeed a 1:1 rate :) (added).

the thing is there is no way for now to put "weight" on the distribution of manpower in our empire, all our ships and all our systems will receive the same amount of troops while we may need to actually focus them (for the creation of an invasion force for instance). The ability to toggle the generation of troops from manpower in a system (and it's production line) should be a nice addon (or the ability to send troops from ships to refill empire manpower)

many possibilities, much work to do such wow

jhell wrote:

It is indeed a 1:1 rate :) (added).

Thanks for the clarification.

Pejman wrote:

the thing is there is no way for now to put "weight" on the distribution of manpower in our empire, all our ships and all our systems will receive the same amount of troops while we may need to actually focus them (for the creation of an invasion force for instance). The ability to toggle the generation of troops from manpower in a system (and it's production line) should be a nice addon (or the ability to send troops from ships to refill empire manpower)

many possibilities, much work to do such wow

Seconded!

If a system has reached maximum production is their any spill over in unused food for manpower production? Is their anyway to increase the amount of food used for manpower production?

If a system has reached maximum production is their any spill over in unused food for manpower production?

I suppose you meant to say population instead of production? Anyways, if your system is full, it will continue to provide a part of its growth to manpower (the rest is indeed wasted).

Is their anyway to increase the amount of food used for manpower production?

Several ways :). Most notably through laws and a tech (Survival Suits).

What is the part of the growth,

The base part of the growth taken for manpower is 10% (of the raw food generated by the system, that is, before food consumption is taken into account). You can make it vary using the ways mentionned above.

- when the system still have room to generate population : 50% ?

- when the system have no more room for population : 100% ? Or 50% and the rest is wasted ?

It's the same part regardless of system fullness. Currently when your system is full, in order to optimize your food output, you can enroll 1 population unit to gain a flat amount of manpower (it's like a system improvement that you queue, "Exotic Rations").

Will add those to OP.

Hi thanks for detailed infos.

Yesterday I've faced really weird things with 1.21 build and manpower, 

I had to build improvement "Exotic rations" (conversion of 10% food to manpower)  to be able to add manpower to the empire, even if a lot of my systems were full (max pop and, so every food goes to manpower right ?).

Manpower on  most systems were full as my ships too, but my manpower balance was still negative (though Empire manpower was stuck at 0, preventing me any manpower upgrades).

Do you know if it's the expected behavior ? 

Thanks

There is a building transferring food to production so that it doesn't go to waste.

As for manpower you can always produce "Exotic Rations" so that each turn you lose 1 population but get it back right away as you have so much food production.

That is 300 manpower so a reasonable number.

Problem here is the micro as you cannot queue this item multiple times (maybe we could have that changed?)

i can always set it as infinite and it will have it's effect every turn, do you think it could be good?

Thinking about it, will be possible to create an infinite improvement that generates manpower from your excess of food, once a system has maxed its pop?

Another question: in the image of military screen, I can read, just below the manpower panel: "BATTLE PLAYS DECK".

Perhaps it has something to do with suggestions in these forums and the new battle system for upcoming updates??

 (max pop and, so every food goes to manpower right ?)

No, currently the same % is applied even when the system is full (we are discussing solutions to tweak this).

Do you know if it's the expected behavior ? 

It's hard to say with only this info, maybe you used manpower to upgrade your troops, or for outpost actions, etc. If you have a save we can try to take a look and see if there is any problem :).

Problem here is the micro as you cannot queue this item multiple times (maybe we could have that changed?)

i can always set it as infinite and it will have it's effect every turn, do you think it could be good?

I was discussing that with Meedoc today. We will be considering a solution to the micro problem, but not sure in what direction yet. @Pejman I saw your mods, keep up the good work and thanks for bringing quick fixes to the community!

Another question: in the image of military screen, I can read, just below the manpower panel: "BATTLE PLAYS DECK".

Perhaps it has something to do with suggestions in these forums and the new battle system for upcoming updates??

As you know we're reworking the battle; this is a part of the rework, more precisely, the "Battle Play Deck", detailed in @MysteryArts post here. It's still heavily WIP :)

lo_fabre wrote:

Thinking about it, will be possible to create an infinite improvement that generates manpower from your excess of food, once a system has maxed its pop?

I do think a bonus item in production queue as you describe would be helpful, maybe an additional +10% food to manpower generation?  I wouldn't want to be able to convert all of the excess food into manpower, too easy to resolve the difficult situation of over-producing vessels that way.  Not sure if that's what you were suggesting.

AquaticSonarKey wrote:

lo_fabre wrote:

Thinking about it, will be possible to create an infinite improvement that generates manpower from your excess of food, once a system has maxed its pop?

I do think a bonus item in production queue as you describe would be helpful, maybe an additional +10% food to manpower generation?  I wouldn't want to be able to convert all of the excess food into manpower, too easy to resolve the difficult situation of over-producing vessels that way.  Not sure if that's what you were suggesting.

I was suggesting something like "Public 3D printing " or "Planet cracker", this king of infinite improvements that give you dust or science from idle systems.

My idea is making the same, but instead of converting industry into dust/science, it converts food into manpower. It can only be queued when system is at max pop (according to this system lvl, colonized planets, etc.., so your max pop ATM, and not theoretical max pop), and when its in the queue, this system is only producing manpower, not any other thing. It also should require unlocking via tech, quest or whatever you like.

I also considered an improvement like the "Biofuel plant" from era VI that converts excess food into industry, but not sure if this can be overpowered in late game. So I didn't posted it, and think that is better having a downside to this method, like the proposed before: you need a full and idle system, and of course need to think if its better to use it for dust or science.

May be working a bit on it, is possible to make it an idea? Not even sure.