jhell wrote:

- when the system still have room to generate population : 50% ?

- when the system have no more room for population : 100% ? Or 50% and the rest is wasted ?

It's the same part regardless of system fullness. Currently when your system is full, in order to optimize your food output, you can enroll 1 population unit to gain a flat amount of manpower (it's like a system improvement that you queue, "Exotic Rations").

Will add those to OP.

Another question, what if empire manpower is full, is part of the growth used for manpower is wasted, or just used for growth ?

I hope it's the second. If manpower is full, then systems should grow better. Being in total peace since a long time should work toward population growth ?

Cool !

This means "by the moment you contruct a ship, or someone is attacking you", you grow less. This mecanism is nice.

So, maybe it's not a bad idea to increase that base 10% growth to manpower to a lot more (like 30-40%).

10% means a faction at war will lose, if this faction can't produce fast enough its manpower, something like 1 turn of growth each 10 turns, comparing to a faction of the same size in peace.

1 turn per 10 turn does not seems to be a lot ?

This is not a big nerf or is it just me ?

Also what if :

- hulls with 0% MP get -25% to HP, to DPS and to move points.

- hulls with 20% MP get -20% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 40% MP get -15% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 60% MP get -10% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 80% MP get -5% HP / DPS / move

- hulls with 100% MP gets +0% HP / DPS / move

(rounded up)

Reason would be when Mecanics / Artillery / Navigation crews are full, then your ships works better.

If your ship have bonus to MP modules, then hulls with say 120% MP would get say +5% to HP / DPS / move etc.

By changing HP, non full MP ships would explode easier, so you need more ships, so you consume more MP.

If you needed more and more ships the less you have MP to get the same military job done, then once you goes in the -10% (or another number) malus to growth, then you stay in it.

You can win a war spaming 0 MP ships today, this would nerf this.

Combined with the 1 turn / 10 turn growth nerf, never researching the +10% to MP discovery in Era 2/3 (I forgot which era. This discovery 10%-> 20% will give you 1 turn of growth less than all other faction at peace each 5 turns) + 0 MP ship spam + only orbiting ennemy systems is the right method to win a war actually.

This would also give MP generation a lot more importance than today : if you're a war faction, then all-in for production is the right method when MP should have its importance.

-edit- damaged ships should loose MP, also.

If a ship lost 50% of its remaining HP in a battle, then it should loose 50% of remaining MP. This would allow pre-emptive attacks on fleets that you know being invasion fleets.

Then you will continue to 0MP ship spam and passivly invade systems by just orbiting like today :/

There is no point in having full MP ships today if you're not going for direct planet invasion.

There should be at least one thing that makes us say "ok, I REALLY need a MP gaz station". For any ships.

Also, if considering HP damaged ships should loose MP, then you can attack a fleet just to slow it (because if it loose MP, then it would loose HP/DPS/move).

This can be a secondary wargoal even if it's a suicide mission for your small fleet.

Today, if you kill the slowest ship of an ennemy fleet, you actually just made that fleet moving faster, isn't it strange ?

I don't see them as ground force or even a security force since there's no point in having MP in exploration or colony ships.

I see them as crew.

Anyway, I can't think of a reason that a 10% HP left "ship" (or "soon-to-be-wreck" should we call it) still get their full MP. MP should suffer casualties.

There is (was ?) allready MP modules. I can clearly remember mounting them on medium or big ships in base EA version of the game. All they does is invade faster systems : MP is meh if it's a one-barrelled riffle like that.

No invasion plans / no invasion risks means no MP needs.

No MP needs means 80% of the time, you using MP constructing ships / nerfing your growth / nerfing your defense regen with no other purpose than non-using a non-usable system.

It's just nerfing you for nothing and you can't avoid that. It seems to be a cost, then. And if it's a cost, it should buy something.

Non-defense MP should have another, peacefull or not, purpose than just "invade activly a system faster". I don't know why MP should only be related to military conquests.

MP should make all your ships working better because most of the turns in this game, you're not conquering or be conquered. And still it's a waste of growth you paid for.

I'd say "I'm a paying in growth ship builder, gimme ma betta ships"

I don't care if it's 25% or 5% difference, but replenishing a ship's MP should be something you want, no ?

Why today's best min/max move to do is letting your 0MP fleets rest on a system you don't control, this is unlogic ?

If MP would add to a ship's efficiency, there could be MP canons in this game (weapon that kills other ship's MP).

MP could be used on a lot more wide strategical level than today's "I can invade you quick or not".

MP should be ship's blood. They should add to your ship's HP because you embark troops with mecanics, they should help the ship to choose the best interstellar route and they should assist and target the ennemy better than a 0MP drone would.

-edit- now, I'm not a "this idea only" guy : it would be okay for me if MP would give a ship some fighters/bombers (say 1 fighter for 20 MP or anything). I just want a valid reason to want to replenish my MP on my planets or willing to construct 100% MP ships.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

I don't see them as ground force or even a security force since there's no point in having MP in exploration or colony ships.

I see them as crew.

If they're crew they shouldn't be able to do ground battles... In any case I could see them as a kind of marines in space: Forces used for ship defense and land ing operations. Or how about this: The crew of a ship would have to be filled with a minimum of manpower (say, 5) to make the ship work, while there is a stock of MP (like, 10) that could help with ground invasions but also replace crew and the last stock would be only invasion forces that can't replace crew. When anchoring a ship in one of your systems you could reasssign MP between each groups if needed.

Anyway, I can't think of a reason that a 10% HP left "ship" (or "soon-to-be-wreck" should we call it) still get their full MP. MP should suffer casualties.

I can support that.

There is (was ?) allready MP modules. I can clearly remember mounting them on medium or big ships in base EA version of the game. All they does is invade faster systems : MP is meh if it's a one-barrelled riffle like that.

Well, it was very similar in ES1 with the Invasion modules, tbh. Except that you now need a resource to have invasion power.

No invasion plans / no invasion risks means no MP needs.

No MP needs means 80% of the time, you using MP constructing ships / nerfing your growth / nerfing your defense regen with no other purpose than non-using a non-usable system.

It's just nerfing you for nothing and you can't avoid that. It seems to be a cost, then. And if it's a cost, it should buy something.

Sure, first assigning MP on ships is an arbitrary choice on this point. Though I guess keeping ships in the hangar adds their MP to the systems MP in case of defense, I too think one should be able to decide where the MP goes. However, I still think having MP modules will alleviate this problem, too.

Non-defense MP should have another, peacefull or not, purpose than just "invade activly a system faster". I don't know why MP should only be related to military conquests.

It would be nice if one could transport MP from one system to another with ships. So you could indeed repurpose offensive MP (as in: on ships) to defensive MP (on systems). I'm gonna post an idea for this. Link will be provided soon. Edit: https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/ideas/229-moving-manpower-via-ships-manual-manpower-assignment

MP should make all your ships working better because most of the turns in this game, you're not conquering or be conquered. And still it's a waste of growth you paid for.

I'd say "I'm a paying in growth ship builder, gimme ma betta ships"

Oh, oh, I am indeed conquering most of the game... xD In the grim dark future, there is only war between the stars...

I don't care if it's 25% or 5% difference, but replenishing a ship's MP should be something you want, no ?

Only in case I want to secure the system after bombardment since...

Why today's best min/max move to do is letting your 0MP fleets rest on a system you don't control, this is unlogic ?

...empty ships can still bombard the shit out of those poor buggers down there.

If MP would add to a ship's efficiency, there could be MP canons in this game (weapon that kills other ship's MP).

MP could be used on a lot more wide strategical level than today's "I can invade you quick or not".

MP should be ship's blood. They should add to your ship's HP because you embark troops with mecanics, they should help the ship to choose the best interstellar route and they should assist and target the ennemy better than a 0MP drone would.

I understand where you want to go, but I still think keeping those two sides of the war separate makes more sense.

-edit- now, I'm not a "this idea only" guy : it would be okay for me if MP would give a ship some fighters/bombers (say 1 fighter for 20 MP or anything). I just want a valid reason to want to replenish my MP on my planets or willing to construct 100% MP ships.

Well, I'm not sure about 1 fighter/bomber for each X MP, but I'd go with something like this: Since the devs themselves said MP is not only human(ish) resources, but also war material, fighters and bombers should indeed count as MP, too. And these can indeed be used for space battles. So if your fighters/bombers die in a space battle, you lose some MP on the corresponding ship. Seems good for me. Just tell if you'll post an idea like this.

mixerria wrote:

I don't care if it's 25% or 5% difference, but replenishing a ship's MP should be something you want, no ?

Only in case I want to secure the system after bombardment since...

Why today's best min/max move to do is letting your 0MP fleets rest on a system you don't control, this is unlogic ?

...empty ships can still bombard the shit out of those poor buggers down there.

I don't understand this :

- a 0MP friendly ship on ennemy system passivly bombard the ennemy system and/or is an aggressive move for your diplomacy.

- a 0MP friendly ship on friendly system passivly bombard your Empire MP, since it wants to replenish MP. <=== What I was telling is "Here, OK, but what is my benefit ??"

- a 0MP friendly ship on a nobody's system makes no problem (either to you by MP vampirizing, or to your diplomacy). Best min/max move to me.

Since MP appears to be a cost for peacefull empires (paid in lost grow and defense regen), what does this buy ?

Refilling manpower of ships should buy something, for any of each 5 victory condition oriented faction to profit. Even in FIDSI, I don't know.