Or at least most Etherial Concepts that cannot be touched or utilized in the physical plane...

is it even necessary to comprove things scientificly in order for them to be accepted?

Just one question: When a ship enters a "warp travel" of this sort, does it achieve some sort of Alternate Dimension or something in space which make its virtually inexistent in our current reality, and impossible to apply sch terms of "speed" because the alternate dimension touched by this form of Warp Travelling goes beyond the normal laws of our current universe?  

Hey, nice again Mr.Velorace.

I think such an Aciubierre drive is based on reversed gravity field, which means that on the ship's bow it is just like a G field caused by a large mass object, and behind the stern, it is a reversed G field. So that the space in front of the ship is compressed, and behind it, space is forced to be expanded. So that would actually give us a movement even we may won't need to move at all.

And, well, I came out some days and had a thought about how much realistic should we be, or should our ES story be.

Questions like yours it's just currently unknown because we even not yet finished our understanding of the fundamental principles of our universe. 

But, since we are a 4X game based on some galactic empire's expansion and conquest maybe in the future or some other universe, perhaps we should not focus so much on the laws of physics we now have even it is somehow very fun to us :) 

(After all, if we accept that modern physics told us which FTL and instantaneously message transforming are unlikely to be possible, the law of our game is just collapsed. 

Velorace wrote:

Well, this seems an interesting point you just touched hojo. I think this conversation has led to one more question: When you reverse the gravity in a field and travel trough space in that G-FIELD reversed gravity, there is a slight possibility (as we don't know the real truth yet) that this reverse gravity field is either INSIDE or OUTSIDE our universe... which means..

#ScienceGoneCrazy

Yes I know, that idea itself is kind of tricky in science, but many theory is also like this one which is possible in theory but impossible in reality. 

And I think that "pathway method" or different functions is...well I have to say that sounds more possible but we don't know and can't observe. And somehow I make my own sure that if such an FTL have a slope larger than 45 degrees it can no longer be concerned to totally fit our acknowledge at now, at least some or a few laws won't be functional. Which is why I thought it is a hyperspace or somewhat else.

Still remind me of the question I put out before: "How much realistic should we be", and that came to an answer: Instead of its possibility in reality, maybe I should concern more about "How it will be functional to this game IF we ASSUME that is TRUE in this game".

So that I still think a visual change to those FTL jumps to make them more 'realistic' and 'modern science like' is a good idea in some future. And more things or thinks about that is always not useless in my opinion.

This conversation is really turning philosophic 8D

Velorace wrote:

This conversation is really turning philosophic 8D

Well, my personal somehow like some philosophic :)

So there are...well not many but some theories exist with hidden variables to deal with or hidden conditions to be achieved first, which mean that with those hidden things, I can neither be proved true or proved wrong...and also it just can't be observed. Those theories are definitely disputed, but still a somehow functional theory in some cases (like pilot waves or the warp drives). So that, science theories when it goes deeper into the unknown, to prove someone is mostly in mathematics ways and that will make confuses to how it will be functional in reality (or maybe just not functional). 

See we now using quantum mechanics everywhere to predict things or build PC and networks, but still, we're even not fully understand how its functions truly are or how it truly means. So that even confused and can't have a clear say about its functions, some may be wrong, but at least these theories will help us to solve questions, or if it could not, it may show us a path. I think so :)

HoJo wrote:

Velorace wrote:

This conversation is really turning philosophic 8D

Well, my personal somehow like some philosophic :)

So there are...well not many but some theories exist with hidden variables to deal with or hidden conditions to be achieved first, which mean that with those hidden things, I can neither be proved true or proved wrong...and also it just can't be observed. Those theories are definitely disputed, but still a somehow functional theory in some cases (like pilot waves or the warp drives). So that, science theories when it goes deeper into the unknown, to prove someone is mostly in mathematics ways and that will make confuses to how it will be functional in reality (or maybe just not functional). 

See we now using quantum mechanics everywhere to predict things or build PC and networks, but still, we're even not fully understand how its functions truly are or how it truly means. So that even confused and can't have a clear say about its functions, some may be wrong, but at least these theories will help us to solve questions, or if it could not, it may show us a path. I think so :)

Intersting. i always thought there are some scientists where too stubborn whit some theories that are related to our current reality, and unable to at least consider other theories of "different dimensions" or something like that because they just can't be proved, even plausible in certain logical terms. 

For example, do you believe in the possibility of different dimensions? I always thought it is possible to define its existence from logical chains.

Did you noticed that the scientific method of comprovation is limited to the human understanding of this universe and is unable to explain what lies Beyond our understand? 

HoJo wrote:

Velorace wrote:

Just one question: Haven't you said that travelling faster than the light speed is virtually impossible, because it's the fastest speed anything in this universe can attempt to move?

If something moves beyond that speed, doens't it mean it simply excedeed "the laws of our space" and any universal law we can concebe (The universe we see is basically what we can concebe of it, as human beings) will not be applied to the vessel moving in 2 times the speed of the light because it will simply "cease to exist" for us until it exists the hyperspace?

Yeah, I think I just forgot something. 

We now have such ideas about the speed of light is the fastest speed anything any objects or any matter that moving in the space. 

But the idea of warp is actually tried to avoid that question by 'warp' space itself. So it is not moving in the space so fast but space itself warp and curved, to let the ship moving faster, but that ship is not moving in the space faster than the speed of light.

So it would be this:

Actually, I had forgotten something about the space be curved would look like blueshift on its front and redshift behind it. And its shape may seem to be shorter than it would be.

But that would apply to a ship moving in the space which is close to the speed of light. When space itself became curved and warped, well...maybe not like this. And I just can't think it out right now.

So at least myself truly think this won't break the rules of the universe, as it seems to be very rational and theoretically could do that.

Just one question: When a ship enters a "warp travel" of this sort, does it achieve some sort of Alternate Dimension or something in space which make its virtually inexistent in our current reality, and impossible to apply sch terms of "speed" because the alternate dimension touched by this form of Warp Travelling goes beyond the normal laws of our current universe? 

Also... if you cut space in half, will you move in speed of light still... but, "doubled" speed of light? 

if it is doubled speed of light because "I AM cutting space in half" aren't still space travel virtually impossible because it would take YEARS (in speed of light) to cross one system to another? 

I think true space travel, whit that much technology, should attempt to cross space in a speed faster than the blink of an eye. I wonder if there is a known way of achieving such! :)

Velorace wrote:

Did you noticed that the scientific method of comprovation is limited to the human understanding of this universe and is unable to explain what lies Beyond our understand? 

You just went deeper and deeper into science philosophy my friend.

Things like additional dimensions, they are just perfect functional in mathematics, and also perfect to confuse someone's known about the reality even if he is a scientist.

I thought some could be wrong but since nowadays we don't have a better theory for that...Emmm, maybe?

I can't give u a decisive answer about those, If ask that like would we or could we finally take a fully understand of every fundamental law of the universe? The answer to this we will or will not is just the same as those theories, impossible to be known, at least for now. 

Useful? Well not so much for now. And for some good reasons? Emmm...always a matter about the curiosity or a exploring of science itself. And there is always someone who wants to have a look or have a try. 

A hint at least for myself could accept is that we are just normal observers of a universe, and science is more like a logical observer who considers reason more than sense. And will an observer finally come to know all? Well...again we don't know now.

Very philosophical, and when science itself goes further, more philosophy will always come to it. :/

I only wanted to shot laaaazors. Why the hell I'm reading all of this? 

Just guessing on the warp animations for the combat cinematics, I don't think that the ships exist in between their starting point and their destination, they simply materialize from a portal/wormhole a given amount of time after they embark. You can pull some "its basically magic" tomfoolery to solve the issue of it taking years to get anywhere worthwhile.

EruWan wrote:

I only wanted to shot laaaazors. Why the hell I'm reading all of this? 

Because scientific philosophy is AMAZING??? :D

Here's another wrinkle in the discussion. What we actually see in the combat view -- the only time we actually see ships "warping in" -- seems to be a *local* movement within the star system, not the long-distance FTL jump between star systems. That's because we can only engage another ship in combat after we have both entered a star system, and basically parked in an orbit around the star. It's a short, in-system hop of maybe a few light minutes or light hours at most, that might be compressed in game time before the combat view kicks in.

So what we're seeing in the game visuals may not be a relativistic FTL jump at all! 

If every ship has an inertialless drive (a very common sci-fi concept, although it breaks Newtonian physics), they might just be instantly speeding up to an in-system drive speed and then instantly slowing down, to match speed with the enemy when engaging in combat. 

We see a burst of light around the ship when it disengages the inertialless drive. That could be a Cherenkov radiation burst interacting with dust particles where the combat takes place, because photons accompanying the ship don't have inertia to begin with.

Just thought I'd throw that in, to mess with everyone's heads. :)

All the rest of the discussion would apply to travel between star systems of course, but this is the only time we actually see ships "braking" into local combat.

Zenicetus wrote:

Here's another wrinkle in the discussion. What we actually see in the combat view -- the only time we actually see ships "warping in" -- seems to be a *local* movement within the star system, not the long-distance FTL jump between star systems. That's because we can only engage another ship in combat after we have both entered a star system, and basically parked in an orbit around the star. It's a short, in-system hop of maybe a few light minutes or light hours at most, that might be compressed in game time before the combat view kicks in.

So what we're seeing in the game visuals may not be a relativistic FTL jump at all! 

If every ship has an inertialless drive (a very common sci-fi concept, although it breaks Newtonian physics), they might just be instantly speeding up to an in-system drive speed and then instantly slowing down, to match speed with the enemy when engaging in combat. 

We see a burst of light around the ship when it disengages the inertialless drive. That could be a Cherenkov radiation burst interacting with dust particles where the combat takes place, because photons accompanying the ship don't have inertia to begin with.

Just thought I'd throw that in, to mess with everyone's heads. :)

All the rest of the discussion would apply to travel between star systems of course, but this is the only time we actually see ships "braking" into local combat.

Yeah! u pointed out one thing that I didn't pay much notice to, the STAR LINEs! And yes that is important!

It is more tented that in ES when across huge distances between systems, they using Star lines, which is like to be some ancient Endless portals or gates, or maybe just a kind of thing just exist there and allow them to be used as wormholes. And it is those Star lines connecting the systems and form constellations.

So that does make sense.

But go into the part of an Inertialess drive, I wonder this thing itself is also kind of undefined functions? (Definitely it's not an impulse thruster or Inertial drive.) Well that...well I just don't know well about the details of an Inertialess drive.

So there is some agreements about between systems we mostly use Star lines, but still we have warp drives and wormholes also be used, and in the system, it is just hard to say which one we are actually using. (Considering that warp drive is not an initial technology) Or maybe both of them?

Still I agree about the Cherenkov radiation burst could be our visual at now in the game, that also indeed makes sense. 

And to the photons, I think yes it is not carried with the ship, but what about the photons came from the ship, like if we have some searchlights or just lights aboard the ship, I think those will behave as I told if the ship went faster than light speed. 

Another more is: maybe we should have more visuals about the Cherenkov radiations if we consider that movement in the system is FTL, or if not FTL but like 3/4 of the speed of light, maybe we would have some Unruh radiations?

X)

Velorace wrote:

Hey hojo, i got ANOTHER question to nutcrack your mind: 

You said it is possible to travel back and fowards in time according to the fact events, of all sorts, emanates some sort of "light", and the events that do not emanate any sort of those are not concebible by the mind, and therefore, basically do not exist in our current reality, because there is no way our minds can acess such information and "decodify it" as some sort of event, or existence in first place. 

But do you know the theory about Destiny? that everything that exist works together for... doing X thing in Y period of time as if... Everything in the universe is already definitive? 

But that is the point, hojo. there are some people in this world that refuses the concept of destiny, that everything that exist or will exist is already predifined, because of this argument somebody else created:

"Does destiny applied to human beings, if they are capable of making decisions? If human beings can make decisions, and decide between two concepts which they want from themselves, doens't this means destiny cannot be applied upon them, because they are able to change their destiny whit their decisions?"

And now comes the Great Nutcracking Question. if it is possible to travel trough time, in order for things to even exist in a possible future, they need to be defined by something else, and one factor that can define what will happen in the future, is destiny. 

But now, if destiny does not exist, like the sentence above explains, how a ship can travel back in time to X spot of time and space, if there a COUNTLESS Timelines that can be possible and occur at the same time... or probabilly, do not even occur, like, who knows? Science?  So back to the question: How can something travel back in space and time if there are a multitude of options for the future? and if a ship comes back from the future and say: DO NOT PRESS THAT BUTTON. but, and if they did not even press it an alternate timeline? 

Will all different timelines succumb into chaos, making it impossible to travel back in time and killing the ship in the process of warping trough the speed of light due to the crazy mechanics of our universe, or is there an alternate source of timeline that makes future more than predictible, like the legends of our past, the Oracles, did?

First, I personally am still don't so much agree or understand that FTL is equal to time travel. Also in my opinion, time travel is some kind be BANNED. And if say that it is determined FTL is equal to time travelling, I would believe more that both are BANNED rather than time travelling is possible to be functional. 

Time paradoxes are just basically prevent anything to be changed in the past, it is both its functions and purposes to exist. Maybe only observation is allowed or they will prevent any changes.

But if say really u can do changes: Butterfly effects. 

Or, maybe, there need some Copenhagen theories. It is said that in quantum level, everything is indeed unsure, but when like 2 or more superpositions combined, thing going move towards the sure. The same function in this part is the observer paradox when you observe a superposition. And all that will make the old timeline and the new timeline begin to combine and merge. (Which in this part of merge is somewhat same of the Butterfly effects. This is also usually be seen in Sci-fi stories.) And since we don't fully understand how brains or ganglions work, free wills is not very sure to say it exists or not. 

And I don't believe in Parallel universes. As it is only an early theory attempt to solve the paradoxes caused by Copenhagens' uncertainty. And it just makes it more uncertain.

Slowhands wrote:

The devs are all running off to work on advanced degrees in particle and quantum physics. All game content on hold for the next 3 years  :)

Well, at least we will have some new things maybe 3 years later :) 

(Posit a DEV... finish his degree in QFT... :)