You made some good points. I was really afraid that it will turn out that way for Hissho, but I hoped other factions would also raise in power level because of behemoths and all. I really like your proposal of creating a decreasing Keii penalty for every system beyond overcolonization. But I think 0.5 or even 1 point would not be enough to keep them from invading, because they already gain a lot of Keii in the process and they can later leave 1-2 systems to continuously subdue them. I would say -2 Keii per turn for every planet past the cap. Only hard limitations like that can make them balanced the way they are without changing other stuff.

You have to think about this from a game settings point of view.  How would this work on a larger galaxy with pirates off?  Just curious?

You may be right, in that there needs to be something to decay kie the larger your empire gets, but on one hand think about every setting playable and go for there.  You make the same arguement I make, they are too weak on large galaxy open settings and too strong in the small ones.  

But what would you say if I turned off pirates and minors count to low and then played a game? 

Agreed. It's too easy to keep nearly constant 100 Keii with plenty to spare for their unique abilities and laws while completely ignoring over-expansion. On the same subject of Keii OPness, the faction quest reward below is way too powerful as well. Due to ease of keeping Keii high it's basically a free permanent global +50% DMG bonus, again something that is even more powerful than the Militarists' last tier law with high influence upkeep cost (+33% Weapon DMG & +33% Troop DMG, upkeep 4 Influence / pop).

I also find it kind of silly that currently the most expensive Keii consuming ability by far is normal colonization after you've hit colonization cap, instead of the very powerful AoE buffs for Behemoths that help numerous fleets and systems for several turns. I know that's supposed to be their playstyle but maybe both of the extremes need to be toned down somewhat so colonizing one system when you're over limit isn't 10x more costly on your Keii than the Order of the Red Blade or Way of the Obsidian Eagle that cost mere 8 or 5 Keii respectively + a very small amount of T1 strategic resources. I really like your idea of over-expansion being tied to passive Keii cost: that way Hissho retain their unique happiness gimmick but still need to deal with it and could also keep their constant conquest in motion by fighting more and more to stave that passive cost they get from over-colonization.

Regardless the active abilities probably need to get their costs increased, or left as is but with other changes to compensate. Right now it doesn't really feel like I'm making an exchange between a powerful ability or empire happiness since I can so easily get both.

I'd say Hissho absolutely need some sort of Keii passive cost, even just -1 or -2 per turn would go a long way.

I would also say that Approval maluses from planets and anomalies need to become Influence maluses for the Hissho, both to justify their Religious theme as a way to keep their population faithful on planets, and a way to make them no longer able to completely ignore the cost of settling and developing lower tier planets and negative anomalies.

Hissho had a passive keii cost in the beta and it did not play well, In short, it made them just like the necrophages if you aren't fighting you die, which is not ideal when you don't always have other empires to fight nearby.

The sacrificing a pop for keii is only available a third of the time, what sacrificing a pop does changes each election.

Keii gain from battles is determined by the balance of the battle so it takes a lot of careful planning to get a lot of keii from them, you can’t just overpower them and all depends on the RNG of galaxy generation as you don't always have enough pirates and minors also other empires can take out the pirates/minors before you do to starve you of keii.

There are also large costs of laws, as many use keii and expansion via colonizing always costs a lot without waiting a long time (which increases the chance of outposts getting blockaded, attacked etc.) 

Excluding the Mining probe bug the Hissho doesn’t seem that unbalanced maybe slightly overtuned but not more than other factions are on certain game settings, the main issue is they need to be counted in a different way to most empires, blockading outposts and starving them of keii sources (pirates & minors) from them are quite effective. They are a tempo faction after all, if you (or RNG) do not take actions against them they will become powerful similar to the cravers.

Many of the arguments being put forth are ones put forth in the beta by others and even me but the Hissho were changed. There are designed so that it’s possible to not die if RNG gives you no sources of Keii (which was a major issue before) and to thrive when they have many sources them.

It's very easy for other militarist factions (i.e. Cravers/Sheredyn) to keep their approval at 100% simply through declaring war on every minor faction you meet, and then later on every major faction on that won't immediately bother you plus the one/two you are actively conquering. Even with the slave drivers trait, Cravers can happily run all systems on ecstatic for the majority of the game so long as you don't expand too much. Given that all other militarist factions have very easy ways and means to keep approval high, and no one is calling them out for being OP, I can't see how this is an issue for the Hissho. I gather there are some balance problems with behemoths right now, but their high approval really isn't something that sets Hissho apart from any other militarist faction. 

Just as an example: Last game with Cravers, 8 players, Endless difficulty, normal speed, large galaxy, turn 115 supremacy victory, never dropped below happy on a single system for the whole game and 90% of the game those systems were on ecstatic. I never have more than 2 Cravers per planet, so just imagine the disapproval penalties from slave drivers.

To hammer the point home, Hissho have to 'spend approval' in order to make the most of their faction traits, in exactly the way Cravers do. Functionally, in that regard, the two are very similar. So it's really not a major issue.

Just on the ecologist point - Hardship Ready is a good law, but it's not as good as some of people make out. Not only do you only get 75% FIDSI from those planets, but with the food changes, it's not as if you will be filling up those planets anytime soon at the start of the game. Colonising those planets also prevents the use of mining probes. So it's often a waste on any faction that doesn't produce enough food in the early game to utilise it well (like Horatio or Unfallen). You're also delaying those extremely strong militarist laws. I'm not saying it's not a legit strategy to switch to ecologists, but it's not without it's drawbacks and it's certainly not OP.

TL;DR - 1) All militarist factions can easily maintain very high approval throughout the game like the Hissho. 2) The spend Keii mechanic is very similar to the Slave Drivers mechanic in terms of 'spending approval' for more FIDSI, yet (I gather) Cravers aren't considered OP, and 3) Going ecologist isn't that beneficial.

WeLoveYou wrote:

It's very easy for other militarist factions (i.e. Cravers/Sheredyn) to keep their approval at 100% simply through declaring war on every minor faction you meet, and then later on every major faction on that won't immediately bother you plus the one/two you are actively conquering.

I thought the minor faction war declaration approval bonus was still an unfixed exploit and not an intended gameplay mechanic? It doesn't make a lick of sense you can just declare wars on every minor faction on the other side of the galaxy and get instant 100% approval without putting in any effort on conquering them. After all as far as I'm aware the opposite Pacifist law doesn't give approval bonus for being in peace with minor factions, does it?

WeLoveYou wrote:

To hammer the point home, Hissho have to 'spend approval' in order to make the most of their faction traits, in exactly the way Cravers do. Functionally, in that regard, the two are very similar. So it's really not a major issue.

CyRob wrote:

Keii gain from battles is determined by the balance of the battle so it takes a lot of careful planning to get a lot of keii from them, you can’t just overpower them and all depends on the RNG of galaxy generation as you don't always have enough pirates and minors also other empires can take out the pirates/minors before you do to starve you of keii.

There are also large costs of laws, as many use keii and expansion via colonizing always costs a lot without waiting a long time (which increases the chance of outposts getting blockaded, attacked etc.) 

You're both forgetting the Hissho can easily choose when and if to use most of their abilities, there's no ticking clock forcing them to fight (like Cravers), and no real downside for ignoring the most expensive abilities. Or in some cases the Hissho are actually more powerful when not using any abilities. The problem is that and the sheer contradictory difference in ability costs, with strong ones being cheap and weak ones being expensive. The only point in the game they're absolutely forced to spend Keii is the start for colonizing the first few systems and getting enough infrastructure up to build their first proper fleet.

The abilities that do cost the most Keii like the planetary FIDSI specialization (25 Keii) and normal colonization after hitting colony limit (can easily go over 70 Keii even at max food) are over-priced gimmicks that are never ever worth their high cost and their effects are neglible, whereas the actually powerful Keii zone abilities (0, 3, 5, 8 Keii respectively - active 10 turns) are so ridiculously cheap they might as well have no cost at all. And only the production bonus ability is something you want to keep on at all times, others are situational for when you're actually fighting, and even then it's not like Hissho ships are weak and absolutely "need" the abilities active in order to survive. Or let's not beat around the bush, some of the most powerful abilities like the quest reward that gives permanent +50% weapon damage bonus across your empire do in fact not have any cost at all and further intencivize you to just keep 100% approval to reap the rewards of both high approval and ludicrously high weapon damage, instead of spending Keii on anything.

The only Keii related abilities that are at least somewhat balanced in my opinion, as in both very useful AND very expensive on Keii are some of the unique laws: the empire wide +25% FIDSI law (1 Keii/turn/system) for example, but keeping it up is hardly a requirement for functional Hissho since yet again, they have no economic penalties from faction traits they would be needing to compensate for. The other unique Keii consuming laws are kind of opposite in that they're expensive at the start, however neither of them scale with empire size and thus they become more cost effective as the game goes on.

Cravers and other militarists have to manage their conquering with the right pop management, expensive approval laws (that also take valuable slots), approval buildings, luxury resource lvl ups and autonomous administration improvement, government types and so on while also being temporarily slowed down by over-colonization on both system and empire level whenever they conquer more. Cravers' unique government that disallows rebellions is already considered a boon and allows them to expand infinitely on paper, but falling low still gives the usual FDSI penalties. Conquered systems also have to go through ownership change. In any case all other warmongers are hit with various economic penalties for over-expansion, whereas Hissho can ignore all of those gameplay features completely without any real downside whatsover.

Suis3i wrote:

It also would make the Hissho, who can, as of right now, afford to not constantly attack people, a complete warmonger faction that would collapse otherwise (Hissho =/= Necrophages or Cravers). Lastly a passively reducing Keii mechanic was tried, and failed in Beta. So arguing this, over attempting to come up with solutions to balance other “OP” parts of their kit is pointless (though, they’re pretty balanced right now, in my opinion).  

How is a complete warmonger faction that can afford to constantly attack people without ever collapsing any different? You're aware that's what basically Hissho are, right? The Hissho can and will be even more aggressive than war-crazed Cravers and it is in fact their optimal / only playstyle, because no current gameplay mechanic whatsoever (passive costs or active abilities) consumes enough Keii to act as a stopgap against endless Hissho conquests, and on the other end their only limitation makes them unable to expand peacefully due to very high colonization costs.

Mechanically Hissho are even greater warmongers than Cravers both because of their overpowered abilities removing all conquest limitations and the faction's colonization limitations cutting off peaceful approaches.

It makes no logical sense to include a passively Keii (honor) reducing mechanic, as that is not how honor works (at least in East Asian Cultures; which is where they seem to have drawn inspiration; time does not reduce ones honor, failures and actions do).

The dishonorable / bad action in question is a badly managed inefficient empire, in-game terms the over-expansion penalty. I don't know how the beta did passive Keii costs but over-colonization threshold would actually work towards downplaying Hissho war-craze, which should be something you like since you don't seem to see them as complete warmongers like Cravers or Necrophages.

Also if you want to talk about what's realistic or logical, how is colonization a very dishonorable action (enough to tank entire empire's approval) but over-expansion isn't?

hera35 wrote:

How is a complete warmonger faction that can afford to constantly attack people without ever collapsing any different? You're aware that's what basically Hissho are, right? The Hissho can and will be even more aggressive than war-crazed Cravers and it is in fact their optimal / only playstyle, because no current gameplay mechanic whatsoever (passive costs or active abilities) consumes enough Keii to act as a stopgap against endless Hissho conquests, and on the other end their only limitation makes them unable to expand peacefully due to very high colonization costs.

Mechanically Hissho are even greater warmongers than Cravers both because of their overpowered abilities removing all conquest limitations and the faction's colonization limitations cutting off peaceful approaches.

The dishonorable / bad action in question is a badly managed inefficient empire, in-game terms the over-expansion penalty. I don't know how the beta did passive Keii costs but over-colonization threshold would actually work towards downplaying Hissho war-craze, which should be something you like since you don't seem to see them as complete warmongers like Cravers or Necrophages.

Also if you want to talk about what's realistic or logical, how is colonization a very dishonorable action (enough to tank entire empire's approval) but over-expansion isn't?

The difference between the Cravers, a faction that literally is a complete warmonger as, "if they do not continue to expand, discover, and exploit new worlds, their society will eat itself to death." (aka they'll die off if they don't keep conquering) and the Hissho, a faction with a history of Clan and Familial warfare is huge. I'm aware, that the Hissho cannot just constantly attack. It's more strategic than continuously sending Craver fleets to whittle an enemy down, b/c as the Hissho, if you engage in conflicts that you may lose, the Keii cost could turn out to be quite significant, not only would you lose ships (and the Strategic Resources and time to build them) but it would also deduct from your public order, and cause you to possibly be unable to make use of their special abilities as well as an inability to safely spend Keii on colonizing planets. 

You're greatly mistaken if you think that playing as an aggressive, expansionist warmonger is the "optimal/only" playstyle. Day one of the expansion being released for the public (and every game I played in Beta) I played my normal, defensive, non-expansionistic, and reserved playstyle. And I won every single one of those games. Oh, and before you ask if it was "normal, sandbox, hard, etc" those were on Endless difficulty with Endless difficulty pirates. Hell, I even tried a few games w/o pirates and I did fine. It's not hard to prioritize Keii granting quests and Legendary Deeds, and only settling during the Blood Ritual so that you can spend a few turns sacrificing the population that spawns to offset the cost of colonizing. I don't even like farming pirates, I get rid of them as soon as possible b/c it's not economically viable to spend time building ships that could be spent gaining system improvements. 

Mechanically the Hissho have the potential to be played as more aggressive and expansionistic warmongers than the Cravers, but the faction is not only centered as being played that way. 

It makes literally no sense that you would have a passively reducing Keii mechanic tied into the number of planets that they own over the colonization threshold. Over colonizing has nothing to do with a badly managed, or inefficient empire, the over colonization mechanic tied into public order has to do with your people disliking your tendencies to over expand and send them (them being your people) off to alien worlds regardless of how efficient or inefficient your empire is being run. 

And no I don't conflate warmongering and conquering other inhabited worlds with the passive colonization of uninhabited planets. Only your guy's proposal would harm passive players more than aggressive players. And if anything would force players who want to play the Hissho to be aggressive in order to gain more planets and to offset the Keii reduction. B/c the alternative is to not colonize and play passively. 

Colonization can be viewed as dishonorable action if you're perceived by the populace to be spending too much time sending them off to other worlds instead of focusing on your duties or b/c a large part of feudal Japanese honor was taking actions upon yourself not sending others to do something for you.