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Need help with Tower of Temporal Paradox

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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 1:32:04 PM

Oh god, this is embarassing. How could I forget to change the name of RuntimeModule? 

<RuntimeModule Name="KaizenWorkflows" Type="Extension" Version="1.0.0">

This should've beed first thing that I had to think about, but I was so captured by my ideas I went directly to simulation and completely forgot about it.

Of course the game sees only one of them in the order of which folders appear, so when they called KaizenOffice and KaizenWorkflows it's Office appearing, and when it's KaizenOffice and 1129577679 it's latter because of alphabetical order.

Please, have these two humble offerings here: KaizenOffice.zip, KaizenWorkflows.zip

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7 years ago
Dec 7, 2017, 1:13:48 PM

Well, it does (in context of calculations indeed Drone Networks add +10 Industry only 1 time, and Distributed Energy adds 10% one time), and it doesn't - how Dust is different in the colony than Industry? Don't we have 

same thing - a composition of values? Same goes for other FIDSI, the only difference in them is icon, color and the name from what I saw in Simulation.

And can you please do me a big favor and take a look in KaizenWorkflows mentioned earlier to get the idea of what effect I was saying previously?


Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 7, 2017, 2:17:49 PM

I think I understood what you meant: 

Let's say we have 100 industry and 10% bonus (which "ticks" for +10%/turn) and there are no more improvements built, no more population growth etc.
2nd turn: it would be 110 industry with absolute value of bonus added of +10

3rd turn: 120 industry with +10 +10
4th: 130 with +10 +10 +10 and so on because the only thing that changes is that "tick" of resource that tracks turn number.


So, lets say we built HippoZoo on 3rd turn that adds 50 industry, if I understood you correctly what we would have will be: 

start: 100 industry

2nd turn: 110 industry with +10 from bonus and 100 basic

3rd turn: 170 industry with +10, +10 from bonus and +50 from HippoZoo and 100 basic

this means, that on the 4th turn the absolute value of bonus added would be 10% of 150 (base+HippoZoo but not from KaizenOffice because of what you said) === 15 and we would have
4th: 185 industry with +10, +10, +15 from bonus and +50 HippoZoo and 100 basic 

and from 4th turn on the absolute value of bonus added would be 15 because sum of the values that compose industry are 150 (100 basic and 50 HippoZoo). Which will still indeed be equal to those "famous" 10%.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 7, 2017, 3:48:31 PM

Oh, forgive me if I was too annoying or pushy. Please consider my thread as an ask for favor which you could assist in when you have time, it's not like I make requests with deadlines or something like that. Honestly, the rate of which you answer already surpassed my wildest expectations and I would've been happy with 1 post in 1-2 days. Of course, I would like to thank you wholeheartedly for all your attention and support, it is really helpful, I have much better understanding of how things work now than couple of days ago. Have a good time.

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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 11:17:33 AM

Hey, I wanted to check the other mod you sent me, KaizenWorkflows, but unpacking the archive in my folder doesn't make it appear in the mods menu in-game (KaizenOffice appears, though)

Could you double-check your file?

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 11:36:55 AM

This is very strange but I experience same thing. I made this mod and published it on September 7 Kaizen Workflows on Steam . Recently I had to re-install my system so what I did I just went to Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\392110\1129577679 (this is where mod is downloaded by Steam) and copied the contents of it to the Community folder - and somehow right now it's not appearing anymore so I can't even update it. Have no idea what this is about.


EDIT: the mod itself (on the "Workshop" tab in MODS in main menu appears and works perfectly)

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 12:02:55 PM

So, well, here's the thing - if I copy entire folder from Steam\steamapps\workshop\content\392110\ and don't touch it's name 1129577679 - the mod begins to appear at "Local" tab in Main Menu -> MODS. So I provide it here 1129577679.zip . But the moment I rename it manually to KaizenWorkflows it disappears. Just what the hell is going on there.. 

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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 1:16:28 PM

I haven't looked yet but I think there's something weird going on with Kaizen Office because now, I have Kaizen Wrokflows but Kaizen Office disappeared so you should check if they don't conflict due to something you'd have forgotten to change? (I presume you started Kaizen Office from a copy of Workflows or something, but I could be wrong haha)

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7 years ago
Dec 7, 2017, 1:05:45 PM

Your logic would work for tangible resources that can be stocked, like Dust, because you stock it and proc on it on the next turn.

Industry is simply a composition of values. So if I have 100 Industry then I build a +20 Industry building, I have 120. If I end the turn without adding anything else, I will still have 120 next turn, not 140.

Same goes for percentages: if I have 100 and add a building that adds +50% I will have 150. Next turn, I will still have +50% so 150 and not 225.


Does that make any sense to you? :)


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7 years ago
Dec 8, 2017, 2:21:27 PM

I had a minute so I took a quick look at it: from what I've seen the whole issue seems to revolve around the fact that Kaizen Workflows "externalizes" its permanent effect since it needs to stay when you remove the thing from the queue.

However, I think Office only procs the effects "internally".


Have you tried having a Property on the System and not on the Building that is incremented by the effect of the Building and then applied to the System Industry?


Something like that:

Then you'd have to find a way to reset the stocked increase value if you scrap the Improvement so it stops affecting your system but having it work the way you want would already be a nice first step.

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7 years ago
Dec 9, 2017, 1:22:28 PM

I reworked the mod and tried a couple of things. Copied descriptor of ColonizedStarSystemStateColony and modified it by:

<!-- KaizenOffice BEGIN -->
<!-- Properties -->

<Property Name="KaizenOfficeSystemProductionStock" IsSealed="true"/>
<Property Name="NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction" />
<!-- Modifiers -->
<Modifier TargetProperty="NetSystemProduction" Operation="Addition" Value="$(KaizenOfficeSystemProductionStock)" Priority="15" />
<Modifier TargetProperty="KaizenOfficeTransferredProduction" Operation="Addition" Value="$(SystemProduction)" Priority="14" Path="ClassColonizedStarSystem/StarSystemImprovementKaizenOffice"/>
<!-- KaizenOffice END -->

So there is KaizenOfficeSystemProduction - an "externilized" Property, which is then modified by:

<SimulationDescriptor Name="StarSystemImprovementKaizenOffice" Type="StarSystemImprovement">
<Property Name="MinimumKaizenOffice" BaseValue="0"/>
<Property Name="KaizenOfficeTickStock" BaseValue="0"/>
<Property Name="NetKaizenOfficeTick" BaseValue="1"/>
<Property Name="KaizenOfficeTransferredProduction" />

<!-- Expected: +100 +200 +300 +400 etc directly modifying SystemProduction  -->
<!-- Actual: +100 +200 +300 +400  -->
<!-- <BinaryModifier TargetProperty="SystemProduction" Operation="Addition" Left="100" BinaryOperation="Multiplication" Right="$(KaizenOfficeTickStock)" Path="./ClassColonizedStarSystem" /> -->

<!-- Expected: +100 +300 +600 +1000 etc SystemProduction is modified by "external" KaizenOfficeSystemProduction which is affected by Tick adding +100 every turn -->
<!-- Actual: +100 +300 +600 +1000  -->
<!-- <BinaryModifier TargetProperty="NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction" Operation="Addition" Left="100" BinaryOperation="Multiplication" Right="$(KaizenOfficeTickStock)" Path="./ClassColonizedStarSystem" /> -->

<!-- doesn't work at all unless BaseValue for NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction is specified, obviously because Percent needs it -->
<!-- <BinaryModifier TargetProperty="NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction" Operation="Percent" Left="1" BinaryOperation="Multiplication" Right="$(KaizenOfficeTickStock)" Path="./ClassColonizedStarSystem" /> -->


<!-- on Sophons default 34 Industry system: +34 +68 +102 - somehow KaizenOfficeTransferredProduction is equal to $(SystemProduction) without itself, even is it's externilized -->
<BinaryModifier TargetProperty="NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction" Operation="Addition" Left="1" BinaryOperation="Multiplication" Right="$(KaizenOfficeTransferredProduction)" Path="./ClassColonizedStarSystem" />

</SimulationDescriptor>

As you can see, there are a couple of "experiments" I made for testing - you could uncomment each one to see for yourself if you wish (only one should be in use however).

So the results are: if there is externalized stocked value (NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction in this case) which is increased by KaizenOfficeTick  then the rate of SystemProduction increase grows every turn indeed (2nd example). However, when I try to transfer SystemProduction value to KaizenOfficeTransferredProduction and use latter to increase NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction that is used then to increase SystemProduction again, the rate of increase doesn't grow (4th, uncommented example). Question is:  according to my thinking SystemProduction should contain value of KaizenOfficeSystemProductionStock, this means that transferred value also should contain it effectively increasing NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction completing the self-affecting cycle, but somehow it's not like that; is this me thinking wrong?

I guess providing full code wouldn't hurt in case it's needed? KaizenOffice.zip

EDIT: typos. Have a nice weekend :)

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 9:43:11 AM

From what I can tell, it's NetKaizenOfficeSystemProduction that remains at 43 (the Industry my System had at turn 1)

I'm wondering if it's not an "intended" behavior to prevent loopd in the Simulation and other neverending cycles.


I'll investigate the Infinite Improvement in Kaizen Workflows, see how it works.


Edit: from what I see, it seems to work relatively the same, so it might be simply that Infinite Improvements are processed differently..? 

Also, you probably don't care at this point but pointing out that Kaizen Office is missing a prerequisite so it can only be built once in a system.


On another game I tried, it appeared it didn't work at all which seems really odd so I'm deleting the mod and reinstalling it.


Edit2: Apparently, having this Kaizen Workflows activated breaks Kaizen Office, causing the latter to have no effect..?

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 10:07:05 AM

So, is this the final verdict: I can't make identical effect of KW on a constructed building (KO) and should stick to previous variations without overwriting descriptors etc.?

Also, ofc I do care, but there wasn't the need to add prerequisites and balanced cost (it costs only 1 production to construcs atm) if the whole thing doesn't work :D

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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 10:51:25 AM

You can't have KW and KO activated at the same time, because they both overwrite ColonizedStarSystemStateColony descriptor, so one cancels the other. This was an issue back in the days with other mods that overwrite same descriptor

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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 11:22:35 AM

I should have said "you don't care *yet*" ^^


It's not a final verdict. I wouldn't claim to be enough of an expert to be adamant on the fact there's no alternative solution.

However, you might want to stick with a scope you know you can do with the time you have on your hands and do something a tad less ambitious but which works well, polished and debugged.


However, I don't want to discourage you from attempting to get the results you want! It's always good to try something new and learn by doing!


Cheers!

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7 years ago
Dec 11, 2017, 11:42:33 AM

Thanks a lot for all your help. I guess at this point I'll have to disappoint the person requested specific variation of KW because of all these problems, but it was very interesting and insightful, I probably will make some other stuff with what I learned in the process. Thanks again for all your time, attention and support. 

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7 years ago
Dec 7, 2017, 8:52:22 AM

Normally you can work on the ColonizedStarSystem, which is either the ClassColonizedStarSystem Descriptor or ColonizedStarSystemStateColony Descriptor depending on your needs.

In this case I reckon both could work.


Looking quickly at the XML, I realized that what we commonly use to affect the Industry of a System is the Property SystemProduction, maybe you should try that instead of the NetSystemProduction.

Updated 7 years ago.
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