Ship Designer: Module Editor for Customizing Ship Modules

Kaada wrote:

Ok I understand your idea much better now.

But I believe it won't work as you like it.

That's exactly what this idea was promoting.  The only difference between what you've described and this idea is the proposal to have *2* slots for attaching resources instead of one. 

Amplitude made it very clear in their Forums that they want to keep the game mechanics very simple and easy to understand. 2 Slots per Module may possibly be just ignored, or changed by Amplitude.

I actually disagree with you on this point.  If we were talking 3 or more slots than yeah, I would definitely agree.  Which is why when I was toying with the idea of a third slot for a color changer, I thought it would add a fun dynamic to multiplayer, but ultimately decided against proposing it for the very reason you've now pointed out.  I wanted to add flexibility and customization to the ship designer via the module editor, but also keep it reigned in and prevent it from getting over complicated by adding a ton of extra slots for good reason.  With that in mind, I think 2 slots would be fine and preferable as it gives the most bang for buck.  In other words, it provides the most benefit with the least detriment.  As you said, it would create an extra step when designing your ships, but not a detrimental one.  I think one slot is too few and would end up limiting the module editor to only creating the modules that already exist in game.  Basically a single slot editor would also create another step, but would only allow you to create the modules that already exist in game and would technically solve the issue with scaling.  But that's it.  So one new step, but only has one new benefit over the current system.  Where as a 2 slot editor would create the same one extra step, but provide the following benefits:

1.  You would be able to fine tune your weapon/defense configurations via your combination choices.  Such as:

• Leaving them blank would result in just having the basic white module.  
• Filling one slot while leaving the other blank (useful if you're low on resources and need to conserve those resources but still want/need a boost to your weapons/defenses.  
• Double up on one resource (basically creating the resource based modules as they currently exist in game now).  
• Apply one of each of 2 different resources (creating hybrid modules.  Also has the secondary use for if you're low on one resource, so the conservation argument works here too).

2.  Also solves the scaling issues currently present in game.

So basically the 2 slot option still only creates one extra step, but adds a considerable amount of functionality to the ship designer.  Whereas 3 slots might provide very little added benefit over 2 slots, but risks making the ship designer cumbersome to use.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm simply saying that in my opinion, I think 2 slots is the ideal solution for the reasons stated.

Also it could happen that "Pro Player" try all Combinations to find "The very best!" and make it very hard for newcommers to play the game online.

Honestly, that happens in every game regardless.  And there's no real difference between everyone using the same one option in a limited game, or a limited group of options out of a multitude.  This is a concept that you will never avoid in any game.  Everyone wants to use the same character builds in an MMO.  Everyone wants to use the same gun in Battlefield or COD.  Everyone wants to use the same ship configuration in Star Trek Online PvP.  It's unavoidable and it will always happen no matter what you do.  Hell even in Star Trek Online PvP example I gave you there, there are "Pros" who use builds that specifically take advantage of glitches within the game to give them an unfair advantage.  My point is, that issue is unavoidable and you will find it in every game.  Whether they're number crunching, glitching the system, or just plain cheating, you will always get those so called "Pros".  The number crunchers I like to call more clinical than art and usually end up being very predictable as a result.  They're good, but they never beat the more artistic and clever "Pro" players.  These are the players that use every part of the game, not just one build type of a ship or glitch in the game.  These are people who adapt the situation and player and make decisions on the fly.  

My point is Endless Space is one of those games that's more nuanced than that, like Civilization V.  There's more ways to actually win a game than by simply beating each other over the head with a club, so to speak.  Whether it's science, influence (culture), economic, domination etc.  There's no way anyone can win on all fronts in one game, and the only people that would try are the ones that really don't know what they're doing and as such should be helped by other players to learn the game proper, because the game is specifically designed to prevent that scenario.  There is no all encompassing way to win every game the same way using one "number crunched" ship build.  Sins of a Solar Empire is a great example of this, where literally everything is able to be countered.  There is no all encompassing strategy.  In order to win, you have to read the battlefield.  You have to watch what the other player is doing and you have to adapt the situation and it's constantly changing.  Like the Borg say, adapt or die (so sorry to use a star trek reference, as you can tell, I'm a geek lol).  ES2 like many of the best strategy games is like this.  The game as a whole is too complex for any one thing to become an instant win, which is why I think this is a non-issue in relation to the module editor concept.

Unless the Game has some kind of Total Number. Meaning that every Ressource Slot gives you different stats but overall is not more powerful than an other combination.

Yeah, that is the idea, but not necessarily so rigidly.  This was where balancing would've come into play, and admittedly is a little bit harder to do.  Also, we were looking at the idea that the resources themselves add additional effects that are unique to that specific resource.  Such as Titanium adding increased accuracy, or Hyperium adding increased critical chance etc.  To kind of pull resources out of the usual "this resource simply increases damage number by X" trope and give resources their own kind of personality or identity.  To really make them feel worthwhile.  At the same time, I also agree with you that there should be limits to this.  Such as I do not think someone using the highest level Quadrinix and Orchilwhatever build should lose to ships using only titanium and hyperium modules.  Not unless the quadrinix build is vastly outnumbered.

Here are the basic guidelines for how I was thinking custom modules should work stats wise:

• It would be nice for resources to have their own unique effects to give them their own unique personality (ie increased critical chance, Improved armor/shield penetration etc.)
• Resources from an earlier era should not be more powerful than resources from a later era
• Hybrid modules from a resource generation (ie titanium and hyperium) should be more powerful than either resource would be on their own, but not "more" powerful than any resource from a higher generation (ie adamantium or antimatter) would be on their own, but should still "compete" with them.

Also bare in mind that the scarcity of strategic resources on any map in any generation would in turn have a significant impact on your builds.  So you may have researched Quadrinix, you may have even found some on one of your planets, but your supply may be so limited and so slow, you may not be able to afford a big heavy Quadrinix build.  But you may be able to apply it in limited quantities to your builds, which could be really helpful, especially if your in war and losing ground and really need to get these new ships in the field as soon as possible and in decent numbers.  This is where the module editor would help.  You could apply one Quadrinix to one slot and then choose another resource such as Antimatter to the other slot for that module.  In effect creating a hybrid module.  Not as powerful as full Qaudrinix on it's own, but more powerful than any earlier generation resource (ie adamantium and antimatter) would be on their own or hybrid.  And definitely more powerful than the basic white module would be without resources.  This way, even at low stock, you could still at least use your new resources in a fewer conserved amount until you can build up your stock levels.  I think if they used those guidelines, they could maintain the balance they already have in game now, but greatly increase ship design diversity.  And this also prevents the possible "ultimate ship build" issue you were worried about earlier.

Sorry for the long posts.  As you can tell, I never give half answers.  Hope this helps.

lo_fabre wrote:

To @Kaada:

Think we got not only the consent to continue ValhallasAshes work, but also his readiness to continue himself. At least that seems from last post.

Oh absolutely!  That's what I see these comments sections as for.  The place to discuss and refine the idea to make it better.  I'm not the only one here nor the only one who wants this idea to succeed lol.  So yeah, feel free to discuss and theory craft to your hearts content.

Example of proposal #1: Each resource of same group has same effect with different tier:

To explain this I'll speak only about weapon modules, but same should work by defensive ones.

My idea here is that resources are actually divided in materials and energy particles, in each group the high tier resource does the same as low tier but better, adding something to the white module. This way it will add as follow (numbers are hypothetical):

Material: Titanium: + 5 DPS, Adamantian: +10 DPS and Orichalcix: +15 DPS to the white module base value.

Energy: Hyperium: +10% crit, Anti-matter: +15% crit, Quadranix: +20% crit to the white module base value.

This with the new system allow you to choose between having DPS or crit enhanced, but as you can pic something different in each stage, you can end with something mixed like +5 DPS, +15% crit and +15 DPS options to your modules, being able to stack only DPS / crit or a mixed option, but you have to choose what you want best.

The good is that this makes things simple, but the bad is that at least one of your resources will be obsolete with your last choice (if not 2 resources if you pick always the same group.

This is pretty cool.  I really like this idea, at first glance.  But I need to start up another game and really break down the stats of the various modules including white modules to really see how these stats would impact the game.  I only have a late era save at the moment so I can't see the lower era white modules stats at the moment to compare with the current resource based modules stats.  I will do this over today and get back to you with more concrete feedback.  At least then I will have more detailed stats with how the current game layout compares with this proposal.  But my initial impressions are really good.

Example of proposal #2: Each resource adds a different effect:

As before only speak of weapons, but devs should be able to translate this into defensive modules.

Here my idea is that each resource gives a special flavour to the white module, but there's no tiers, only each family is someway applying similar flavours (think this is close to ValhallasAshes initial idea, but not sure). This way, to put examples of what each resource can add (numbers still hypothetical):

Materials:

- Titanium: +5 DPS.

- Adamantinan: better armour penetration

- Orichalcix: better accuracy if out of ideal range (not sure about that one, only as example).

Energy particles:

- Hyperuum: +10 crit.

- Anti-matter: better shield penetration.

- Quadranix: increased fire rate.

A you can see with new exclusive tech now you can choose: DPS vs crit, armour vs shield penetration and accuracy vs rate of fire, as example.

This allows good combos of module improvements if you can put two resources in each module. Also this is flexible, and allows you to adapt to your enemies fleet composition, but forces yo to plan this very from a far, as it has the downside that when you made a choice, you can't go back.

Contrary to previous proposal, this makes no resource obsolete, but at the cost of having to remember more things, and more complex choices.

Also I thought of special effects from each resource related to the weapon/defensive is applied, having various effect for same resource depending on where this is applied, but not developed this much, cause IMO make all system too complex.

It's a very good starting point.  Although I do wonder about the hyperium +10 crit when you've also given it to hyperium as it's base boost in the previous proposal.  But these are all debatable and tweakable.  Definitely on board with the armor/shield pens and increased fire rates.  Not sure on the accuracy one either.  Perhaps an alternative to accuracy since we don't know how much of an effect it would actually have at this point.

Matching with new exclusive techs (unlocking of resource slots):

IMO as said in previous post, the new exclusive techs opens a door. To put this as an example, imagine you have in Military tree an Stage 2 exclusive techs that allows you to have a resource slot in your weapons or in your armour, and same in Stage 4.

Having this two exclusive techs forces you to decide what you want: 2 slots for resources improving your weapons, 2 slots improving your defensive modules or 1 slot in weapons and 1 slot in modules.

I think this forces you into interesting choices, and may be even faction-related, but what I'm not sure is how far this is from original ValhallasAshes idea, so just consider this.

Honestly?  I really don't like that idea, because it might over complicate things and if implemented incorrectly, could easily put too heavy an emphasis on researching one over the other that could lock you out of options that don't really make sense to be locked out of, overcomplicating things in the process.  Plus I don't know how you could feasibly implement that on a resource tech basis since the 2 slot module editor is meant to apply to the white modules themselves and not the resources you've chosen to research.  IMHO I really think just sticking with the basic 2 slots per weapon and defensive module premise is the best way to go.  I may be misunderstanding what you mean with this one, if I have misunderstood, please feel free to elaborate on this one.

Support modules:

Well most of support modules are related to one resource, but there's still "white" ones: probes, an engine and manpower modules.

Some same principle may be applied to this. Still didn't thought about this deeply, you can put more exclusive tech in areas like science tree, allowing you to choose if you want to upgrade your probes with Titanium, giving them more durability of with hyperium giving them a broader detection radius. Same can be considered for manpower and the white engine.

Still work to do here, but we'll see how this goes.

I actually agree with your original assessment of support modules where they should remain as they are.  Resource specific and not modifiable.  Due to their very specific purpose/role it makes sense to have support modules require a very specific resource.  This also helps prevent the module editor from becoming too complex and cumbersome by limiting it to the module types that would best benefit from it.  So yeah, I agree with your original assessment.  The module editor should be limited to weapons and defensive modules.  Support modules should remain as they currently are.

As promised, here is the full breakdown of weapon and shield stats as we currently know them in the games current (Update 2) state.  I've also included sections which compare the strategic resources to the current basic white modules level at the time of strategic resource module unlock.

Test methodoly

Reseach both techs (weapon/shield) for each strategic resource module and check stats.  Compare to current White module level.

This spreadsheet contains all stats for all resources and white modules currently in game with appropriate comparisons.

Link to full size image if you have trouble reading it in the comment:  https://medias.games2gether.com/forums/valhallasashes/Module Stats 1080.jpg

As you can see, the problem of scaling is even worse than I originally thought and tried to explain.  After this test and data recording, it turns out that most of the resource based modules rendered obsolete before or upon completion researching them due to the issues with scaling that I've highlighted throughout this thread.  My original intention with compiling these stats was to provide lo_fabre with concrete stats to help him and us for theory crafting how resources stats would work with the proposed module editor.  The information I found turned out to be more than I bargained for.

@lo_fabre - please feel free to use these stats to help refine your ideas for possible stats for individual resources.

@everyone including lo_fabre - I've included a download for the full spreadsheet I created for the module stats.  You'll find it in the link below.

Weapon Stats.xlsx

There are slots already laid out for Orichalcix and Quadrinix, but since those resources are not yet in game, I've left those fields blank.

P.S.  The reason I also labeled resource modules with "identical stats" as "Obsolete on Unlock" is because they increase the cost of your ships production in resources (although they do save you a little in industry production cost, probably about a half-turn's worth), but provide zero benefit over the standard white modules, meaning it's more advantageous to just install basic white modules instead of resource based modules in those cases as well..  Hence "Obsolete on Unlock".

Lulz! wrote:

Looking at that spreadsheet makes it pretty easy to see that anything using the strategic resources doesn't offer much of any value to the player regarding ship design at this stage. I say "much of any" because they are "useful" in a sort of backwards sense; you can use the resourced weapons as cheaper alternatives to the higher tiered white modules, for a modest decrease in industry cost and near parity in stats.

You know what.  That one caught me off guard.  I've been going on the thinking that they cost the same industry wise and didn't actually notice that the resource based modules are actually cheaper from an industrial perspective.  But because these resources (in their current state) can be more valuable in the market rather than to save a half turn of production, I think I would still consider them obsolete on unlock at this point.  So currently, the adamantium and antimatter weapons are the only modules that are actually more powerful than the base white modules by the time you unlock.  But by so little, I doubt many will care to invest their research when the turns required to unlock would be better served elsewhere..  But seriously, thank you for pointing that one out.  That one completely slipped passed me.  I'll need to go edit that post to amend the piece of info.