Ship Designer: Module Editor for Customizing Ship Modules

VIPValhallasAshes

Shadow Guardian

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VIPValhallasAshes

Shadow Guardian

48 400g2g pts

8 years ago

Nov 22, 2016, 7:25:40 PM

Idea/Ultimate Goals: (This is a modification concept, not a redesign)

The concept for this idea is to accomplish the following goals:

Introduce a Module Editor for creating custom modules and thus greatly expand ship design possibilities.
Make researching resource-based modules more worthwhile and keep them competitive by making them scale better, maintaining their usefulness and relevance throughout the eras.
Clean up the Ship Designer interface and thus make the Ship Designer more intuitive and easier to use as a knock-on effect.

To accomplish the above goals, the idea is to propose to the Dev's that they add a module editor to the ship designer, to use for customizing ship modules instead of the current system where you have this huge list of ship modules, all of the same type, where the only difference between many of these modules (other than stats) is their resource variant. Where instead of the huge list, you could snap-in and snap-out resources as needed that add the unique modifiers associated with the resource to the base module type, creating the resource-based variants in the process.

Issues With The Current System:

Currently, when you research a new resource-based material (Titanium, Adamantium, Orilchalcix etc.) or substance (Hyperium, Antimatter, Quadrinix etc.). You can obviously use that resource in your ship designs and use their module counterparts to boost your ships stats. You have planets that have this resource that is mined, continuously filling your stockpile up to a maximum of 999. Any more you mine (which you can't stop), simply gets wasted/thrown away. The problem comes in once you research the next tier of resources. You have these new elements that are stronger and more powerful, so naturally you are going to use these as much as possible. So, what do you do with the old resources to which you now have tons of. Right now, not much other than diplomatic trade and a couple special support based modules. Other than that, they become pretty much, completely useless. Constantly accruing, and nothing to do with them. Why?

Well the problem hits when you hit the next level/era because of 2 things. One, you have these new resources that are considerably more powerful/useful than the previous, but you may have a limited supply, so you may not be able to use too much of them in your new builds for the moment. So you might think, hey, then why don't you mix and match with the older resources as well, then there's no problem right? Wrong, and that's where the second problem becomes glaringly apparent. Unfortunately, this is where we get into the issue of scaling. See, right now, as your tech/eras advance, so do your basic white weapon/shield modules (as they should). The base stats of these basic white weapons and shields become stronger and more powerful, but your old resource-based modules such as titanium and hyperium, do not. Which means that even your most basic white weapon/shield modules become even more powerful than the earlier resource-based weapons/shields rendering the older resources completely obsolete and useless as a result for anything other than a couple special support based modules. Example:

As you can see by the above example, the tier 3 basic module is now more powerful than the older resource based variant, rendering the older resource useless. And even if you consider the Hyperium Tier 2 variant, that one actually has the exact same stats as the basic tier 3 variant. So why would you bother to use the Hyperium resource variant, when all it does at that point is increase the cost in resources and provide zero benefit over the basic white module. All of these factors result in you now having tons and tons of constantly accruing resources that you literally can't do anything useful with.

Often times, making you wonder why you bothered wasting turns researching them for such relatively short periods of usefulness. This is where I think a module editor would be the perfect way to fix this problem and would literally give us everything we want and more.

Approach Proposal:

Instead of having researched a resource, then the Dev's having to create special individual listings for each and every weapon/shield module etc and specific stats for each these "basic" modules and various "resource-based" variants.

(As you can see, in the later era's, the options box starts getting overfilled with all the different variants of the same modules.)

All they would have to make are the basic white modules and stats and scale them through the eras like they already do (this would in turn save the Dev's considerable work). This way, apart from support modules, you would only have to select the basic white module types to attach to your ship:

(Similar to how it looks earlier in the game. Fewer listings for the same "type" of module. Drastically cleaning up the Design Interface)

Then add 2 interactable slots to each module while it's attached to the ship (whether it's a weapon or shield) to which we can attach resources to (whether you double up on one resource, or use one of each of 2 resources to make hybrid modules), and make the resources themselves, modifier based instead of actual individual modules. They modify and boost the base characteristics of whatever module they're attached to. That way, you could create your resource based weapons/shields, like you already can. But it means you could also make hybrid weapons, like torpedoes with adamantium housings and antimatter warheads. And on top of that, it makes all older resources useful again, because now that resources simply boost/modify the base characteristics of whatever module they're attached to, it means that all older resources will now properly scale with everything else naturally, giving them back their relevance in the later eras. Don't have enough antimatter? Fine, I've got plenty of Hyperium, I'll use that instead and still get a boost. Just a smaller boost. Or they could have a secondary effect/property that's unique to that resource, such as increased armor penetration or increased accuracy or critical hit chance etc that could keep older researched resources competitive in the later eras without breaking game balance. Greatly expanding ship design possibilities in the process.

This would also open the door for adding more module types without having to worry about further bogging down the current system with tons of additional listings. Such as new weapons like pulse wave blasters or defensive systems like point defense systems for defending against fighters and missiles.

Supporting Examples:

With the current system, adding just the above 2 examples of new ship module "types" would require a total of 14 new individual module listings in the ship designer. One for each basic white listing, then an additional 6 individual listings each to account for all of the resource variants as well. Resulting in 7 listings each, 14 listings total. That's a lot of listings for just 2 new module types. Where as the Module Editor would only require the 2 white module listings, and then those modules could be turned into the resource-based variants via the module editor. So you'd still have access to all the resource variants you already have, but also have even more possibilities due to the ability to make hybrid variants via the editor, in effect multiplying your possible options. All from just 2 listings. That's a big difference.

On that same note, lets use just 1 of the above new module types as an example. If you were to use the module editor, resource modifier-based approach proposed, and you were able to snap-in and snap-out 2 resource types. Including all variations of: no resources attached, one blank + one filled, doubled up, and one of each of 2, the total number of module resource combinations (only counting the 6 resource types we know of currently in game) skyrockets to a total of 49 possible combinations. That's 49 possible module configurations all from just 1 module type listing. Now scale that across all offensive and defensive modules and you now have a truly mind boggling number of possible ship design configurations.

The result? Drastically more ship design combinations. Considerably fewer item listings bogging down the design interface. Resource usefulness scales a lot better through the eras "naturally" without requiring developer intervention. And opens the door for the Dev's to add new module "types" to the ship designer (whether now or via future DLC) without having to worry about further bogging down the design interface with tons of new unnecessary separate listings. All from a relatively small modification to the current system. That's a lot of bang for your buck.

They can still have support modules require a very specific resource, like they currently do with support modules and I would like that, but I do think for the most part, that a module editor/resource modifier based system is the best option for weapon/defense modules overall.

Over the short term, it would take more work by the Dev's to implement this modification to the current system, but over the long term it would save them a ton of work and open the door for them to add more unique resources and/or module types later (if they so chose to), without bogging the ship design interface down with tons of unnecessary module listings. It would literally fix every issue currently present with resources and scaling and expand ship design possibilities by a massive amount, yet simplifying it at the same time. It's worth considering at the very least.

Updated a day ago.

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Out of Vision

The OUT OF VISION status is given by the dev team to ideas that are not compatible with their vision of the game or technically not feasible.

DEV The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales

status updated 5 years ago

While being able to customize your modules is an interesting idea with many possibilities, ultimately this could not make it into ES2. The level of micromanagement this would lead to did not fit well into the general design of ES2.

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VIPValhallasAshes

Shadow Guardian

Message

VIPValhallasAshes

Shadow Guardian

48 400g2g pts

8 years ago

Jan 29, 2017, 3:11:47 AM

Ok, first I'd like to preface this with an apology. Both of you are right. This idea is not dead. Not yet at least. I have to admit when I first ran into this issue/development, I had been up for 24 hours, tired and probably not in the right state of mind (due to the shock) to properly assess what I was seeing from all of the angles. As a result, I kind of flew off the handle and was harsher in my assessment than I should've been. Sorry for that and thank you both for your support on this idea. I'd also like to extend that apology to the developers for that less than polite post. With that, here's my input to both of your discussion points.

Kaada wrote:

As far as I know the Strategic Ressource Weapons and Modules are obsolete because the White Basic Weapons and Modules scale with the Era you are in.

That's correct. Which in certain games in normal circumstances might be fine, although I would prefer that they weren't for the reasons stated throughout this thread. ie tons of excess obsolete resources with no practical use for.

Kaada wrote:

So why don't Amplitude just takes the Strategic Weapons and Modules completly away from the Option bar?

My Idea is very simple.

1. You research the Tech for the Strategic Ressource.
2. You install a blanc white Weapon on your ship slot.
3. This Weapon Slot now has another Slot where you can put one of the Strategic Ressources in which are in a Sidebar.
4. You now have, as example, a Hyperion Weapon instead of the Blanc and you can change the Strategic Ressource whenever you like.

That's exactly what this idea was promoting. The only difference between what you've described and this idea is the proposal to have 2 slots for attaching resources instead of one. This would have several benefits:

1. You would be able to fine tune your weapon/defense configurations via your combination choices. Such as just leaving them blank (resulting in just having the basic white module). Filling one while leaving the other blank (useful if you're low on resources and need to conserve those resources but still want/need a boost to your weapons/defenses. Double up on one resource (basically creating the resource based modules as they currently exist in game now). Or apply one of each of 2 resources (creating hybrid modules. Also has the secondary use for if you're low on one resource, so the conservation argument works here too).

2. Would eliminate all of the scaling issues currently present in the game. Because now that resources simply boost/modify the base characteristics of the chosen basic white module they're attached to, it means resources would scale naturally with the basic white modules, because you could no longer have resource based module without an associated basic white module. It would literally render the issue of white scaling past resources a non issue, keeping all resources relevant and useful throughout all eras. Even if those uses are not quite as good as the higher level resources.

3. Drastically increases the total number of possible ship configurations at the same time that it cleans up the ship designer as a whole. More customizable and user friendly.

4. Would in the long run save the developers a lot of work and open the door for them to add more module types and/or resources (either now or via future DLC) without having to worry about bogging down the ship designer interface or accidentally breaking game balance. Since any one change would automatically scale throughout all eras due to the way the module editor would work (in theory).

Kaada wrote:

Right now I think of that idea more like of a color changer for the Basic Blanc White Weapon/Module. Making it from White to Blue/Orange/Red/Adamantium Orange/Green/Violett

I was actually toying with the idea of having a separate color slot for the module editor to attach a resource to, for if you wanted a specific color inherent to a specific resource, but wanted the boosts/modifiers from a different resource. Basically you would have 3 slots instead of 2. The first 2 slots would act as the boosts/modifiers for the white module their attached to. By default the color would be whatever resource you attached to slot 1. But if you put another resource in the 3rd slot, it would not provide any boosts/modifiers stats wise, but would override the color to the one associated with the resource you attached to slot 3. The downside is while you would get the colored weapons you want, it would also increase the resource cost of the ship. This concept I was toying with, but never actually proposed it here (because this idea is already complicated enough to explain, and there was no point making a new idea for it, since this concept relies on the idea that a module editor already exists), was mostly aesthetic and would provide no real benefit in game other than looks. But I did think it could make things a little more interesting in multiplayer. Where now, if you were to fight someone in multiplayer, you would see immediately what weapon types they are using as soon as they opened fire. But what if you couldn't? That's where this concept could come in. Basically, this concept could open the door to play mind games in multiplayer, by you being able to use adamantium torpedoes but have their color overridden to look like titanium torpedoes. Now you could never be completely sure about what weapons the other player actually has on their ships, because the colors are no longer a for definite indicator. It was just a fun idea I was toying with.

Kaada wrote:

Amplitude can still give those "Upgrades" some new or different attributes.
As example: Hyperion has Era 4 "15 DPS" and "15% Critical hit chance" and also does Damage over time "1 DPS for 3 seconds" cause Plasma damage. Titanium has "15 DPS" and "20% Critical Hit Chance" Adamantium as example does "23 DPS" and has only "17% Critical Hit Chance" but doesn't do Damage over Time, etc. Remember that are only examples and no real ingame stats.

Completely agree, which is where I was hoping this module editor would lead to.

Kaada wrote:

I hope you understand what I'm trying to write. My english knowledge is not the best.

Would be nice if you answer. Your Idea is not dead yet. But it has to be reshaped. Maybe.

You're English is more than understandable man. And believe me, I really appreciate the feedback.

------------------------------------------------

lo_fabre wrote:
This don't kills completely your idea. but yes, it now is very strong limited.

I agree. I think I overstated my case in that post. I was very tired and clearly not thinking straight nor properly assessing the ramifications of this update.

lo_fabre wrote:

What I like of your idea is adding the resource to a blank module and give it a new special flavor. Now you have to choose if you're able to add titanium or hyperium, then antimatter or adamantian, and so on.

From here there are two options:
Metals are only and improved version of previous, so Adamantian > Titanium but does the same better. Same for energy particles. If you go this way, you can still choose a metal in say Stage 2 and a energy particle in Stage 3 to compensate. The choice is what you want better, or if you simply want to upgrade same group. Also making mixed modules still keeps some sense.

Yeah, this was an aspect I clearly didn't think fully through at the time I wrote that post. The irony of it is. When I did the test, what you've just described there, is exactly what I did. And I did it for that very same reason lol. But when it came to writing that post, somehow I managed to completely forget that aspect of the tree. Goes to show you just how tired I was when I wrote that. I really should've slept on it and waited until I was more awake and clear headed before trying to write that lol.

lo_fabre wrote:

2. Each resource has different effect. Even if you have to select one exclusively in each Stage, that gives you the opportunity to select 3 resources to apply to your weapons and 3 to your defenses, this way you can make mixed modules, with less (a lot less) combinations, but still maintain some of your proposal alive.

Stats wise, I still think it should be limited to 2 resource slots per module. Early game it should only cost 1 resource per slot, that way if you doubled up on one resource, it would effectively create and cost the same as the resource based modules that currently exists in game. As era's and strength of resources increase, so too should the cost per resource per slot to keep the balance in game right. Same thing already happens in game where an era one resource based module costs fewer resources to install than a 2nd era resource based module. If we really wanted a third slot, I honestly like the idea of the 3rd slot simply acting as a color override. This way we can keep the module editor versatile, but also keep it reigned in to prevent it from getting too complicated and cumbersome to use.

lo_fabre wrote:

So, IMO this don't completely kills your model, but limits it. the main thing, IMO (not sure if was your intention) is still maintaining the blank modules progression independent of the special effects that modules give to them, allowing you to update your blank modules and its resources upgrades independently.

That was exactly my intention with this idea. It was to eliminate scaling issues by making resources dependent on the modules they are attached to. That way, even if your white modules do scale up with an era, the resources will remain relevant and useful because they simply boost/modify the base characteristics of the white module they are attached to. Rather than acting as their own separate entity like they currently do now in game.

lo_fabre wrote:

Also this opens the door for new techs: one that allows you to upgrade modules with one resource, and then another to unlock the second resource.

Really hoping to see new techs as well. And yeah, now that I've had time to rest and think it over, I can't believe I forgot that one when writing that post even though that was exactly how I did it in game for that very same reason. Live and learn.

lo_fabre wrote:

I don't completely lost my hope that something can be done this way.

Neither have I. I dropped pretty low after seeing all of the exclusion links, but I'm still hopeful and after both of you rightly pointing out the important pieces of information I missed in my previous post, I'm even more hopeful and now realize that the module editor could still be implemented quite easily and we could still reap the benefits from it. It may not have as big of an impact now as the initial brief outlined, but if it was implemented, it would still have a drastic and beneficial impact on the ship designer and gameplay as a whole.

Thanks again, both of you.

Updated 8 years ago.

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