Gameslayer989 wrote:
Actually you cannot turn a planet from a lower (betteR) tier to a higher (worse) tier. So many times i've wanted to turn those arids into lava's

Yes, you can, but you can't jump tiers.

You'd need to do Arid->Desert->Lava.

Tredecim wrote:
Have you played Armada 2526 by chance? It has almost the same options.

Nah I didnt play it.

But I played other strategies and what I am affraid to play is game with weapon of mass destruction what is stupid for me. Its like "Now we have thiz weapon_of_mass_destruction and we win already". If not players AI will get it. Lots of ppl like racing who will first get it. I dont and only option for me if so many of you insist to have it is switching in game options WOMD technology on/off.

But razing is ok

Scorched Earth is old strategy used by all civilisation (on our planet ) and lets say its "naturally" when U raze planet than you dont want/dont need to keep your enemy as far as U can. So there we come to point where pupulation like/disllike razing party.

We can assume in far future safety of species is more important than genocide other one. For Sowers or Automatons it will be maths to do or not. For others we can guessing. So in my opinion it goes with trait for some races. Still penalty for razing shouldnt be so big or big only for specified civs like Pilgrims for example.



Sry for my english.

FreedomFighterEx wrote:
i am fear that when in later game with warping, they might jump into unprotected system and raze them off ._.



should we implement star system improvement that slow down enemy warp speed if it come into range?

Isn't razing system owner only? Razing isn't really a tactic, you could nuke it or exterminatus easier than razing as enemy tbh... Razing systems, blowing it up to take all it's minerals? Instant boost to Dust and industry in system but the planet is now forever gone :3

Aureon wrote:
It is in the history of 4X's, though.



If you want something bigger, it's usually referred to as "Nuking".

And honestly, if you have a weapon that can send a sun into nova, i don't see why you'd need to have system ownership to use it.

Sun nova would have to be so late in tech that you'd be able to warp to systems instantly... but it would probably be frowned upon by your population

i am fear that when in later game with warping, they might jump into unprotected system and raze them off ._.



should we implement star system improvement that slow down enemy warp speed if it come into range?

I am completely fine with making anomalys and changing planet type, but destroying an entire sysem is very very extreme.



And if you did decide to raze a system, it would be... interesting, if the lowest happiness systems could revolt and turn pirate or something like that.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
That is not the definition of razing, either by Amplitude or by the dictionary.



Merriam Webster Dictionary: Razing: Completely destroy (a building, town, or other site): "villages were razed to the ground".



And Amplitude says that "It is perfect for Scorched-Earth strategies." This doesn't sound like de-colonization to me.



But if Razing actually meant what you said it did, then I would take no issue to Razing whatsoever.











As other people have said, I don't want ES to be MOO2 or GalCiv2. ES should be like ES, and the furthest that I want razing systems to go is de-colonization. (murdering of populous.)

It is in the history of 4X's, though.



If you want something bigger, it's usually referred to as "Nuking".

And honestly, if you have a weapon that can send a sun into nova, i don't see why you'd need to have system ownership to use it.

I don't think there is any point in me discussing this further until we see what the dev's have in mind. We could all be running in circles and in the end, get nowhere at all. I've stated what I had to say, and reiterating it another 50 times won't makes the slightest bit of a difference. I think we have dug our heels in.

Nasarog wrote:
Okay, let me explain myself.



I was not saying that I want Moo2, or GalCiv2, I was using them as examples of what can/was done. MOO2 was basically the Empire from SW punishing the rebels/dissidents. GalCiv2 was basically a big FU to the galaxy in preparation for all out war.



Anyways, here's what I am getting at. The razing of systems would add another level of depth to the game, assuming we get an actual end game mechanic which is lacking right now. As was stated, by the time you can use this tech, you've already won for all intents and purposes.



Cravers consume. This should be their normal way of playing. They consume all biological matter. The people on the worlds they conquer are nothing more than food for them. They needs some real tweaking because the 25% malus they get is not enough. When any system they occupy is taken over it needs to have 50%, 75%, 100% etc. There needs to be a new type of planet that has percentage of usability on it with it's own graphic representing that. THis by the way is my biggest gripe so far in the game.



United Empires/Sheredyn make slaves out of the population of conquered planets.



Hissho enslave/dominate the population for being weak, or admit them into their ranks for being defeated warriors looking for redemption.



Amoeba expel the captured population if they refuse to adopt their lifestyle or incorporate them into their society.



Horatio genocide the population for not being Horatio!!!



Pilgrims admit the conquered population into a UN type society.



Sophons either let them leave and keep a few around for study, or they let them stay and keep them all for study.



Sowers either expel or exterminate the captured populace because they aren't Endless.



Automatons adopt the survivors and integrate them into the koombaya world they run.



Again, what I am saying is not meant to be adopted wholesale. It's just an idea on how to introduce a late game mechanic as well as making the factions distinct.

I love these ideas, and I really do hope it won't be a Total War thing where you chose to take, loot or exterminate, it's been done and frankly it is to sterile and boring... Like Nasarog every faction should have it's own way of "razing systems".

Aureon wrote:
Razing is to remove all improvements and population, and have it return at turn-zero stage.

If you want to terraform into barren, there's the tech for that already.

That is not the definition of razing, either by Amplitude or by the dictionary.



Merriam Webster Dictionary: Razing: Completely destroy (a building, town, or other site): "villages were razed to the ground".



And Amplitude says that "It is perfect for Scorched-Earth strategies." This doesn't sound like de-colonization to me.



But if Razing actually meant what you said it did, then I would take no issue to Razing whatsoever.

Nasarog wrote:
Why do you dislike that?



Here's how Moo2 handled it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dO01h3d2xs



Here's how GalCiv2 Handled it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z97EhYC3B5g



Works for me.

As other people have said, I don't want ES to be MOO2 or GalCiv2. ES should be like ES, and the furthest that I want razing systems to go is de-colonization. (murdering of populous.)

Well you could have multiple levels of "razing systems"



1. Deportation - Relocates population(availible with a tier 1 or 2 tech) -(5-20)Approval on all systems with refugees(10turns). 1 pop remains

2. Galactic Genocide - Eliminates Population(availible with a tier 2 or 3 tech) -20 Approval in Ajacant systems(90turns), -10 approval on empire(30turns), very bad for diplomacy. 1 pop remains

3. Scorch the earth - terraforms to Barren(unless it's Gas/Asteroid/lava) removes the basic building, -5 per Population on razed planet for empire(30turns) and additionally to system and adjacant systems(90turns), planet gains cravers "depleted", diplomatic relation malus scales with collateral damage on personell.

4. blow it up - Terraforms to asteroid(Gas giantsand asteroids vanish completely but take 4 times longer to blow up), -5 per Population on razed planet for empire(30turns) and additionally to system and adjacant systems(90turns), diplomatic relation malus scales with collateral damage on personell, All Empires now Fear you, also removes basic building and wonders, incase a wonder is destroyed additional -10 on empire and even more mali to diplomacy.

SpaceTroll wrote:
Hi guys,

a big thanks for your input in the matter, and please feel free to keep discussing it. We will soon detail you what we have in mind regarding "Razing systems".



The big picture would be to at least offer the players to "decolonize" his systems and when conquering systems to have a choice of what to do with them (very much along the lines of what Lenon describes).

For that particular topic we did not have in mind to destroy suns or planets.



ST

I'm excited. Hopefully the razing negative will take into account Horatio's dislike for foreign colonists. Will this be only in the xpac or available in an update for all version of ES?

didn't read the whole thread but i used to play a Massively Multiplayer Strategy Game (browser based) named hyperiums for many years.



in that game you could blow up the planet using some kind of black hole generator device (last tech in the game) which destroyed the fleets in orbit too but took a long time to power up (so you had to defend the planet for like 36h with battles ticks every 2h), the rest of the system was badly affected in trade for a long time.

before we can have an intelligent discussion about the specific mechanics, we should define the basic purpose of this feature from the perspective of the attack and the defender. it doesn't make specific sense to start talking about granularity of planet vs system until we figure /how/ this mechanic will be used and for what reasons



From my perspective:



The Attacker:

1) They simply do not want to colonize a new system and start from zero approval.

- in late game when you start mass-invading systems this really hurts your empire's approval

2) They know they can't hold the system for long and just want to get rid of it

- I would assume razing a system would be harder than invading and it would take more turns, so this doesn't exactly make sense from strategic terms

3) They want to speed up the invasion of a system

- without sufficient MP, it is currently impossible to invade a system. by performing some kind of bombardment that destroys both pop and improvements, systems can become easier to invade.

- at the same time, systems should be able to deal damage to invading ships eg. ion cannon ala star wars



The Defender:

1) Scorched Earth?

- the only really damaging element is to reduce population since improvements can already be sold

-> perhaps scrapping of improvements should take multiple turns than simply destroying them as to make it sometimes advantageous to destroy the improvement

- you can't evacuate a system since it would break the Pilgrim Affinity

2) ??

The_Quasar wrote:
I don't want ES to be like MOO2 or GalCiv2, and I don't want ES to copy them... I WANT ES TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN BOTH!! It can't be that by copying them.



At present you can terraform to Barren, then Gas Giant, it you wish... you can also sell everything that's been built... you can move population off by colonisation ships...



If you wish to do all the above in one go, the tech should be VERY expensive, and probably off the bottom of the tech chart. Certainly it should be well beyond current terraforming. It should also immediately give you AT LEAST -50 and take EVERY other faction to Hostile with you, even your allies, but not quite to the same extent as the other factions. So in the majority of games it will never be used.

Okay, let me explain myself.



I was not saying that I want Moo2, or GalCiv2, I was using them as examples of what can/was done. MOO2 was basically the Empire from SW punishing the rebels/dissidents. GalCiv2 was basically a big FU to the galaxy in preparation for all out war.



Anyways, here's what I am getting at. The razing of systems would add another level of depth to the game, assuming we get an actual end game mechanic which is lacking right now. As was stated, by the time you can use this tech, you've already won for all intents and purposes.



Cravers consume. This should be their normal way of playing. They consume all biological matter. The people on the worlds they conquer are nothing more than food for them. They needs some real tweaking because the 25% malus they get is not enough. When any system they occupy is taken over it needs to have 50%, 75%, 100% etc. There needs to be a new type of planet that has percentage of usability on it with it's own graphic representing that. THis by the way is my biggest gripe so far in the game.



United Empires/Sheredyn make slaves out of the population of conquered planets.



Hissho enslave/dominate the population for being weak, or admit them into their ranks for being defeated warriors looking for redemption.



Amoeba expel the captured population if they refuse to adopt their lifestyle or incorporate them into their society.



Horatio genocide the population for not being Horatio!!!



Pilgrims admit the conquered population into a UN type society.



Sophons either let them leave and keep a few around for study, or they let them stay and keep them all for study.



Sowers either expel or exterminate the captured populace because they aren't Endless.



Automatons adopt the survivors and integrate them into the koombaya world they run.



Again, what I am saying is not meant to be adopted wholesale. It's just an idea on how to introduce a late game mechanic as well as making the factions distinct.







Before my little rant I must say this; I absolutely love the game and the following is just my heartfelt wish to make this game even better.





Here goes: The way the game handles conquering right now needs to be reworked extensively. The next expansion/DLC will handle ground combat which goes a long way towards needed depth in the game, but even if it takes you 10/20/30/40 turns/years after conquest, there must always be an element of the survivors that is rebelling or fighting the change. Another thing is that the tech tree needs to be majorly reworked, renamed and retasked so that each faction is completely unique. How does an Amoeba fleet conquer a Sower or Craver planet and just move in. None of the existing tech should be usable. It would need to be broken down into resources and then rebuilt to their spec. I can see this not being a problem with UE/Pil/She even Horatio (since they are all descended from Vanilla humans), or when conquering enemy factions that are the same as yours. The A.I. needs to be made unique for each of the groups. Again, this is all stuff that needs that attention, and it would help both the game, it's gameplay and our enjoyment. But that is a whole other topic and I honestly didn't mean to rant about it here.



Okay, rant off. Back to the topic.



Razing a planet/system can mean many different things, and like many have said, until we see the design document for the dev's ideas, this is all just as flapping our lips on a windy day.

The proactivity is good in this thread but until we see what is to come can't exactly be truly "for" or "against" the system.



The one thing that would be super cool - Racial Razing.

For example virus bombs for UE or locust scourging for the Carver

Maybe an Anti-Matter blast for Sophons?

Horatio shoe sale?? Haha



But on a serious note adding a certain type razing doctrine to races/affinities could spice things up...

Thoughts?

SpaceTroll wrote:
Hi guys,

a big thanks for your input in the matter, and please feel free to keep discussing it. We will soon detail you what we have in mind regarding "Razing systems".



The big picture would be to at least offer the players to "decolonize" his systems and when conquering systems to have a choice of what to do with them (very much along the lines of what Lenon describes).

For that particular topic we did not have in mind to destroy suns or planets.



But there is more to come!



cheers



ST

Hmm "decolonize" this sound so... friendly lol



Thanks for letting us know

Hi guys,

a big thanks for your input in the matter, and please feel free to keep discussing it. We will soon detail you what we have in mind regarding "Razing systems".



The big picture would be to at least offer the players to "decolonize" his systems and when conquering systems to have a choice of what to do with them (very much along the lines of what Lenon describes).

For that particular topic we did not have in mind to destroy suns or planets.



But there is more to come!



cheers



ST

Nasarog wrote:
Why do you dislike that?



Here's how Moo2 handled it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dO01h3d2xs



Here's how GalCiv2 Handled it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z97EhYC3B5g



Works for me.

I don't want ES to be like MOO2 or GalCiv2, and I don't want ES to copy them... I WANT ES TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN BOTH!! It can't be that by copying them.



At present you can terraform to Barren, then Gas Giant, it you wish... you can also sell everything that's been built... you can move population off by colonisation ships...



If you wish to do all the above in one go, the tech should be VERY expensive, and probably off the bottom of the tech chart. Certainly it should be well beyond current terraforming. It should also immediately give you AT LEAST -50 and take EVERY other faction to Hostile with you, even your allies, but not quite to the same extent as the other factions. So in the majority of games it will never be used.

Ca_Putt wrote:
Well you could have multiple levels of "razing systems"



1. Deportation - Relocates population(availible with a tier 1 or 2 tech) -(5-20)Approval on all systems with refugees(10turns). 1 pop remains

2. Galactic Genocide - Eliminates Population(availible with a tier 2 or 3 tech) -20 Approval in Ajacant systems(90turns), -10 approval on empire(30turns), very bad for diplomacy. 1 pop remains

3. Scorch the earth - terraforms to Barren(unless it's Gas/Asteroid/lava) removes the basic building, -5 per Population on razed planet for empire(30turns) and additionally to system and adjacant systems(90turns), planet gains cravers "depleted", diplomatic relation malus scales with collateral damage on personell.

4. blow it up - Terraforms to asteroid(Gas giantsand asteroids vanish completely but take 4 times longer to blow up), -5 per Population on razed planet for empire(30turns) and additionally to system and adjacant systems(90turns), diplomatic relation malus scales with collateral damage on personell, All Empires now Fear you, also removes basic building and wonders, incase a wonder is destroyed additional -10 on empire and even more mali to diplomacy.

That could be nice but I still support more the idea of faction specific raze system.

faction specifc stuff is all nice and unique but it spurs extra work for a feature that imho is not used in every game and needs to be balanced. And essencially with the scale of ES the difference between an Icky virus, nukes and destruction camps is negletible, the result is the same, the people are dead and everyone hates you I don't think these little differences would be worth implementing. Apart from two: Cravers eating up worlds. And Automatons/sowers genecising a place, aka letting flowers grow everywhere.



Essencially those could replace option 3



C3: Eat up! - when active it consumes population dependent on (system) population or Fleetstrengh gives 10FID per pop consumed. When active on an empty planet it terraforms: Jungle->Arid->desert->Barren; Terran->Tundra->Ice->Barren, Water->Ice->Barren. has no effect on tier 4 and 5 Planets. -5Approval on empire while active. Huge diplomatic penalty.

can be stopped by building an exploitation or neither population nor planet tiers remaining.



I thought about the use of a genesis device from Startrek but ... all stats I could think of would make it sorta pointless