jnkaiser wrote:
AS published an addon with lower QA-standards than the core vanilla game.

AS stopped community involvement.

AS uses their resources in another project.

AS ask how their next 4x game should be.



As you say: they havent declared yet, what the future of ES will be.



And I expect a clear statement whether the gamers can expect steady improvement the next months or not.

Delaying this statement is not an option AS has.

AS has strong community bindings.

Community will not stay when mocked.



regards,

JK



P.S: I remember Legends of pegasus from Novacore studios.

1) Yes that is true, if only for the massive swarm of bugs

2) Community involvement is alive as long as this forums is alive, as G2G is not specific to ES.

3&4) No studio stays alive if they only publish one game without sequels, new titles, etc. Amplitude has to move on, or they will die as a studio, thus I believe they are making the right choice in this respect.



As for the rest of your post, I agree. We need to know wither Endless Space will or will not be finite. Except I dont think amplitude would mock us on purpose like other dev teams, but regardless of that fact, yes droves of the community will be lost if mocked whether purposefully or inadvertently.



I just like to remember that Amplimath, at least at one point, called ES his dream. Whether or not that statement is accurate, I certainly hope they won't leave one of their dreams to rot, like,as you mentioned, Legends of Pegasus.

Endless Space and MOO2 are two different entirely different games. Each does something better than the other. I preferred the turn-based combat of MOO2 because it allowed more strategy and control over what was going on, and I preferred the ship creation and building of MOO2 and Galciv 2 as it provided you with far more customization options then ES does. Otherwise, though, ES handles economy and science quite well. Diplomacy could use some work, though. For example, the ability to convince other empires to make peace or declare war on another empire even when you are only at Peace with the empire you are trying to convince, rather than an Alliance.

I came for the looks and I stayed for the complexity.



Not only does Endless Space look beatyfull....its complex enough to keep you glued once you get it. The comparisons to MoO2 usually come from ES newbies who dont know all the details yet (no offense). IMO...Endless Space is the better game....kudos to MoO2 for being so old and still good due to design but it doesnt keep me at it like Endless Space does.



You dont understand the mechanics (yet) and thats okay....we all started out like that. Judging it due to incomplete information and lack of experience and claiming some other game being better just because you know the "other" game inside out and dont Endless Space is a bit unfair tho.

Hahahaha, you really put that mental thesaurus to good use

full agree with T41,



Economy is not "great". it's good, ok, accessible, simple, appropriate, fun, pleasant and functional but not Great.



Combat may be called boring, uninvolving, pointless, lame, gaaaayyyy, confusing, random and unremarkable but surely not horrible. And certainly not ugly!



I personally like the Combat as it is:

Pleasant, epic, Stylish, beautifull, thought-provoking, not stupid, Relaxing and flashy.

Just to give you some clearification about the development-status of ES.

This is information I got directly from the Devs at Gamescom.



Meedoc still is working full-time on it. He will eventually be pulled off but right now you can still try to direct him into the right direction.



When it comes to balancing, I think that LetoSilvermane who has done a lot here with his mod, should probably contact Meedoc by PM and tell him, I told you to do so.



Try to identify the parts of your mod that you feel everyone should have instead of what the game is like right now. I'm thinking of stuff like 100 Hull-Weakness on all ship-types and other crucial balancing-issues. Also AI-improving-changes had always been taken into consideration when presented to the Devs.

Explain why you think why a particular change in your mod is better than the current state.

Haha like the tag for this thread 3



I think ES combat itself is refreshing and original for an rts, ship design could be better, I mainly use the weapons I think the particular empire should use (Sheredyn I am using missiles, Sophons I use beams).



Economy, I feel, is interesting. Nothing fancy but gets you through the game with a light heart money wise. However I don't usually go for an economic victory so it takes a back seat except for buying things out



I hope amplitude will keep knocking out the kinks in ES but I am excited for EL (sorry about the ranting )

jnkaiser wrote:
And I expect a clear statement whether the gamers can expect steady improvement the next months or not.

Amplitude has currently people working on all three games, it is not because of the announcement of 2 new games that they have abandoned ES. You should have more faith in amplitude, really.

jnkaiser wrote:
AS published an addon with lower QA-standards than the core vanilla game.

AS stopped community involvement.

AS uses their resources in another project.

AS ask how their next 4x game should be.

The only problem that bothers me is that the AIs don't "adapt" the new mechanisms of Disharmony and can't provide enough challenges for players who have been on Endless difficulty for hundreds of hours.



And the multiplayer mode is like boardgames so it can't compensate the AIs like how many other co-op games do.



Easy and quick access is essential for most successful multiplayer games, but for the first game of a small company, I think it is natural to have a lousy multiplayer mode as a bonus for free or something like that.



And all the problems what Endless Space has are not what you said.



Needless to say, wrong suggestions will not be helpful.



The gameplay is great, but the combat could be too simple. Of course I imagine that it can be more epic than it is, but the devs can't and didn't make it. The reasons are obvious and forgivable.



But I believe they will improve all in the future with more funds and experience.

I think the game has reached the limit of the developers ability to make it better. Software projects grow in complexity until they reach the limit of the minds behind the software to manage that complexity. You know they are getting close to the limit when each release is two steps forward and one step back. They may be sick of struggling with the bugs and balancing issues and complaints related to Endless Space and just want to get out from under it and work on a new project.



Endless Space was a nice addition to the genre and I've had a blast playing over 300 hours of it. Unfortunately, it only took us about halfway to fulfilling the potential of a truly great 4x space strategy game. It's such an underserved market. I hope someone else takes up the challenge.

Just sharing some impressions.



Economy is really great. You can spend hours playing with different build orders on the same start trying to get the best FIDS by turn 25. Science is important, but not overpowered, being the first to get a couple of tier 4 technologies won't win any games for it but will boost your economy reasonably well. Different tech branches are often interdependent with resources from applied science opening new options from trade or military research. Different planet types are different enough to make you care. A huge hydromiel Eden tundra planet can be a FIDS powerhouse but won't win any games by itself. Vertical growth is well balanced against horizontal making you think twice as for whether to grab a new system or a new planet in old system.



Combat is horrible. Incredibly confusing. Ugly. Seemingly random. As you design ships you have no idea as for overall combat effectiveness, nor for cost effectiveness. It's amazing how combat in almost 20 years old MOO2 is not only clearer and better balanced, but even more beautiful. 3D view gives nothing in terms of strategy, tactics, visibility of combat mechanics and it looks rather ugly. Combat definitely needs improvement, in terms of clarity of mechanics, in terms of balance, in terms of ability to estimate the battle outcome before it occurs at least roughly.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
I think we would appreciate it if you would stop acting as though Amplitude has discontinued ES development. It is far from finished, but they have not declared whether or not they well develop ES and EL together.

AS published an addon with lower QA-standards than the core vanilla game.

AS stopped community involvement.

AS uses their resources in another project.

AS ask how their next 4x game should be.



As you say: they havent declared yet, what the future of ES will be.



And I expect a clear statement whether the gamers can expect steady improvement the next months or not.

Delaying this statement is not an option AS has.

AS has strong community bindings.

Community will not stay when mocked.



regards,

JK



P.S: I remember Legends of pegasus from Novacore studios.

jnkaiser wrote:


Amplitude-studios asks: What is behind the door?

Simple answer: a horde of angry and disappointed ES gamers!

I think we would appreciate it if you would stop acting as though Amplitude has discontinued ES development. It is far from finished, but they have not declared whether or not they well develop ES and EL together.

When ES started to become popular I was really excited and when I played vanilla I really found it good - even when I find that combat is horrible. Really nice graphics but horrible gameplay.

But all with potential and so I hoped, development will proceed.



Now, what I see with the add on is not what I wanted. The game is far away from beeing mature or being sound.

At the moment, game is boring and not balanced - even galciv II is more fun.



My question now: does the development team think, job is over with the DH addon?

Is the development team aware of the game not beeing balanced?



Amplitude-studios asks: What is behind the door?

Simple answer: a horde of angry and disappointed ES gamers!



greetings

JK

Ail wrote:
I'd like to mention that I did not like Moo2-combat too much either. Some modules, like Reinforced Hulls where totally overpowered and in the late-game it became absolutely tedious to control the combat with up to 108 ships per side. The 4x game where I like combat most right now is Fallen Enchantress: LH. It's much closer to Moo2 but prevents the tedium by limited stacking of units of one type and a much lower limit of partaking units.

+1



I am great fan of MoO 2 but its time leave it in peace and see what ES can do on each own. But yes its also true that some changes in combat are still needed.

muxecoid wrote:
J It's amazing how combat in almost 20 years old MOO2 is not only clearer and better balanced, but even more beautiful.

*Smashes On Keyboard* (result censored due to Spam filtering :P)



Please, PLEASE stop comparing ES to MOO2. Yes MOO2 is good. Yes it does some things better, and in my opinion, some things worse, but ES was never meant to take its place. Everyone has some kind of haze in front of their eyes before their first game that ES will be MOO4 with updated graphics.



Its a different game, and both are great games. Can't we just leave it at that?



btw I know your thread isn't about comparing ES to MOO2. But when you put it in your thread, its kind of hard to see anything else...



On the subject of your thread:



I have no love for the current BC system. Its just to much rock paper scissors (overused analogy, bu nevertheless apt.)

I would prefer to have something of a power control chart that you could use to send extra poser to missiles, shields, deflectors, repair, etc. etc. so that it would be a matter of strategy through design then by 'chance'.



As far as balance, I resent the fact that 75% of combat is one side trouncing the other side, and 20% is that both sides hardly do any damage to one another.

I partially agree and partially disagree.



Getting to know what's going on in combat mostly is a process of learning.

The more you know about it and the more expericence you have with it the better you'll become at predicting the outcome.



You will then see that it is hardly random at all but instead follows certain rules.



I also disagree about it being ugly. I actually feel it looks quite good.



Where I have to agree is that when you design ships, it's harder to predict the overall effectiveness since the effectiveness dramatically depends on what your opponent fields and how the designs counter each other. Also the fleet-size is extremely important.



Also the balance is heavily burdening it. The balancing development since the release of disharmony looks like pure experimentation with no clear outcome in mind.

As of now it appears that defenses on Large hulls are way overpowered and there's very little incentive to use something other than Kinetics unless there's gaping lacks in the defenses for the other weapon types.

The combination of fixed-tonnage-defense-modules and large-hulls having a bonus on defense-efficiency combines into too much surviving-power.

The thing about that is: It was even worse in older builds!



I'd like to mention that I did not like Moo2-combat too much either. Some modules, like Reinforced Hulls where totally overpowered and in the late-game it became absolutely tedious to control the combat with up to 108 ships per side. The 4x game where I like combat most right now is Fallen Enchantress: LH. It's much closer to Moo2 but prevents the tedium by limited stacking of units of one type and a much lower limit of partaking units.

Yea, I disagree. I love the combat and despise the economic gameplay. I want more depth, and hope that there will be a proper fleshing out in an expansion in the future.



Add one more for clarity and transparency. Been asking for that for almost a year now.

muxecoid wrote:
It's amazing how combat in almost 20 years old MOO2 is not only clearer and better balanced, but even more beautiful.

I do not like the cut of your jib.



Clarity, I agree, balance? That is up for debate considering how Bovine2's tech tree is designed to have balance for factions with different tech, where as ES is supposed to have players using all types within a short order.



And in respect (Or not) MOO2 is not a saint of a game by any means.

muxecoid wrote:
3D view gives nothing in terms of strategy, tactics, visibility of combat mechanics and it looks rather ugly. Combat definitely needs improvement, in terms of clarity of mechanics, in terms of balance, in terms of ability to estimate the battle outcome before it occurs at least roughly.

I don't know what is going on now and some people mentioned that the combat animations don't work as usual.



But I have to say when I play, the animations help a lot and I always watch it to see how every type of weapons and defenses works, and it is enough for me to reach the victory with every faction(except Harmony, of course) on Endless difficulty (of course, the AIs could be a threat if you limit your time to think and with Iron Man, not to load, or with tough combination of galaxy size and opponents)