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The Battle of Cheng : Multiplayer Harmony Battle. Bug?

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11 years ago
Dec 31, 2013, 11:58:21 PM
NOTE: T3 = Tier 3 , T2 = Tier 2



I'm going to attach the saved game so others can verify the results. This was a battle against another human opponent, on this turn but prior to the save I lost 1 full fleet (21 ships) in the Cheng system of Kinetic Destroyers (RK-KD ships) using the Nosebreaker Targeting Tactic. After that devastating defeat I saved the game because I thought it was bugged or broken or something that the devs/community might be able to answer and/or fix. Plus I have a second fleet in the system to try again with. Though it has 4 antiquated Kinetic Destroyers in the fleet. Also if it matters, I upgraded the RK-KD design with the Fleet Power Module (+8% Crit, +10% Damage, +10 Defense for Fleet) and still lost against this opposing fleet.



But here is the Break Down.

My Side : Harmony

Faction Advantages/Disadvantages : +36% Damage, -5% Accuracy

Harmony Empire Advantages : +80% to Damage, +80% to Defense from Abundant Resources (counting only strategic, not sure it applies to luxury)

Fleet: 21 Destroyers (17x RK-KD, 4x Defender 3)

RK-KD : 11 Tier 3 Kinetic Weapons Long Range, 1 Defense of Deflector, Shield and Flak

Defender 3 : Tier 2 Kinetic Weapons Long Range (I think 9 of them)

Fleet Total Kinetic Damage Rating : 9372



Opponent : Vaulters (Human)

Faction Advantages : No Combat Orientated Faction Traits.

Empire Advantages : Unknown

Fleet Size : 22, 4 Dreadnaughts, 3 Cruisers

Tian : 714 Deflect Defense

Beaer: 308, 259, 259 Deflect Defense

Fleet Total Kinetic Defense Rating : 3682



Now I don't expect to win these battles, but I do expect to bloody their nose a little bit. So what we have is a Kinetic Offense of 9372 vs a Kinetic Defense of 3682. Now if I focus fire a single dreadnaught it should die right? 21 ships firing 223 Kinetic Weapons at it (187 T3 Kinetic Weapons, 36 T2 Kinetic Weapons) versus 714 Kinetic Defense. Now I don't know how many modules of deflectors he had, I do know that the level of his ships in addition to his Admiral skews those values some. But for a "worst case scenario" you can reach kinetic defense with 18 T3 Deflectors on ship.



Now on a per salvo basis this translates to 23375 kinetic projectiles ( (187 T3 Kinetic Weapons x 125 Per Salvo) + (36 T2 Kinetic Weapons x 62 Per Salvo)) vs 450 Kinetic Projectile Defense (18 T3 Defectors x 25 Projectiles Deflected ). Obviously not all are going to hit, but I have enough fire power here to overwhelm his defenses 51 times over. Let's assume only 1 out of every 10 weapons fired hits, that's 22 hits with kinetic weapons, 17 of those are 125 projectiles, and 5 are at 62 projectiles, so 1985 projectiles (( T3 2125 projectiles - 450 Kinetic Defense) + 310 for T2 Kinetic Projectiles ) get through at 5955 base damage. Add the 116% and it should be around 11k or so of damage.



In any and all cases, I'm not sure what's going on, so I'm hoping a Dev or VIP can elaborate on the what and why of it. If nothing else just load the game and try using the different targeting tactics (nosebreaker, guillotine, spread fire) in the battle at Cheng. If you think that is working correctly, please explain what I'm not understanding.



Thanks!
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11 years ago
Jan 1, 2014, 10:54:16 AM
  • Your experience seems to follow the normal rules.
  • I can't load your game because I don't have the Vaulters.
  • I can make some good guesses about what happened.
  • You can load a game and play as another player or an AI. To do so you'll need to edit your saved game using any program that can open bzip2 files (I used 7zip). Do a search for (Some Numbers) . Delete it. Save it. Load the game as the AI and see what they were doing.
  • Your understanding of the combat mechanics is incorrect. Please consult the Endless Space Disharmony Wiki for much more information.
  • http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_(Disharmony)
  • With nosebreaker, you shot the first ship on the enemy's list, that means you were shooting at the 719 defense Dreadnaught.
  • Defense Modules have (at least) two effects, a special defense effect and the normal defense effect.
  • For T3 Deflectors the special is that the first 25 shots that would hit are blocked. This you have more or less correct.
  • The second is that each type of damage is reduced by the appropriate defense type. Math follows later.
  • With 719 defense you are not facing 17 T3 Deflectors. It is some number less than that, however the AI will have a ton of bonuses on that, so 17 T3 is as good as estimate as any for explaining what happened.
  • With that many shots, EvasionDisorientation approximately makes your accuracy ~88% in the Long Range Phase, and 85% in the Medium and Short Phase.
  • The accuracy loss due to racial ability is unimportant in this situation.
  • ~450 shots are blocked due to T3 deflectors.
  • Damage = damage * HullWeakness/(TotalDefense + HullWeakness)
  • 17 T3 Deflectors at 420 defense per deflector = 7140 Total Kinetic Defense
  • = damage * 100/(7140+100)
  • = 1.38% damage is dealt
  • This assumes that our defense calculation of 7140 is accurate. It is probably higher than this.
  • For my ease of math, let's just assume that you had a full fleet of your RK-KD destroyers (22 ships) with 11 T3 modules each.
  • That's 242 modules shooting, 215.7 (on average) hit. Each shoots 125 shots, so around 4 are blocked by the Deflectors. This leaves ~211 hits.
  • 211 * 125*3 = 79125 potential damage.
  • Reduced to 1.38% * 79125 = 1091 actual damage per round (Kinetics shoot 4 times per range phase) in the long range.
  • This is reduced by 50% in the medium and short ranges, so 545 in each of those.
  • This will also drop as you lose ships.
  • Your +80% damage and critical hits will increase this, but since our estimates for defense are complete guesses, it doesn't matter for this explanation.
  • With 7 Ships, the enemy could kill your entire fleet in the long range phase.
  • Total damage is estimated to be ~2000 barring any healing, if our estimates are close.
  • BattleCards would make a difference, if the AI had a working defense card, you might end up doing less than 1k damage total.
  • If the AI played healing cards, their ships may come out of the combat with more health than they started with.





  • Now you ask, what are you supposed to do about this?
  • You have the right idea, just swap kinetics for Missiles.
  • I like to have a mix of kinetics, missiles, lasers, and bombers in my glass cannon designs.
  • This keeps the enemy honest in his defense distribution. So he might trash your kinetic fleet (per your experience), but then has to suffer 459,000 damage worth of missiles.
  • To counter your ship mix, he has to use omnidefense (defenses of all three types), which makes him equally vulnerable to all weapons and reduces the amount of weapons his own ships carry.





Lastly, I've attached your edited save so you can see for yourself what they had.
Paradise Lost - Turn 169.zip
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11 years ago
Jan 1, 2014, 4:38:46 PM
I can't load your game because I don't have the Vaulters.




I don't have vaulters either. The human opponent I played did though. But you should still be able to load my game as me (Harmony).



For my ease of math, let's just assume that you had a full fleet of your RK-KD destroyers (22 ships) with 11 T3 modules each.

211 * 125*3 = 79125 potential damage.

Reduced to 1.38% * 79125 = 1091 actual damage per round (Kinetics shoot 4 times per range phase) in the long range.




As I said in my original post, the battle on this turn, but prior to the save was 21 RK-KD's as that is my fleet cap and was doing the nose breaker.



But let's go through the math just to make sure we are on the same page. Also I'm not sure if you are including the -5% accuracy in to your accuracy calculations or not...



Damage = ((( 231 * .88 = 203 hits ) - 5 for deflectors ) 198 * 125 * 3 = 74250 ) * 2.16 for 116% Damage Bonuses for 160380 Total Damage



Now Applying Damage is :



160380 * 7140 / (100+7140) = 158164.8 (This is the damage that is negated?)



160380 - 158164 = 2215 Damage Applied?



Let's assume the Tian has Intelligent Tools repair module, it will heal 10% of it's HP per battle phase correct? So let's say 600hp.



Phase 1 - Assuming a loss of 3 ships per combat round for -105 damage per ship, -315 per round, and let's say -150 for the intelligent tools per round.

Combat Round 1 = 2065 Damage (2215 - 150)

Combat Round 2 = 1600 Damage

Combat Round 3 = 1135 Damage

Combat Round 4 = 670 Damage

Total Damage = 5470 which should destroy at least 1 ship since his max HP on Tian is 6090 HP but highest HP for the Tian fleet is 5229.



Another thing is that against the AI I can play Kinetic Overload for another +40% to damage. But with the ~98% kinetic negation it doesn't really matter. Doing the battles over and over again it seems I reduce one Tian down by ~3000 HP. So I'm sure if we nitpicked every detail and accurately calculated out the battle mechanics we would come up with the number.



From my point of view it doesn't make sense that 231 weapons modules are effectively being countered by 17 defense modules. But I do understand and agree with what they are trying to accomplish by doing it this way. I would argue that there still needs to be a little tweaking to the formula. I do not think it would be unreasonable for that fleet to kill at least 1 dreadnought. And currently as implemented would it ever make sense to use other firing strategies? Seems to me the battle formula defeats that purpose.



Now you ask, what are you supposed to do about this?




I know what to do about it smiley: smile. I guess I was under the impression that you could overload their defenses, and thus use the best weapon I had, but that is a big mistake on my part. T2 missiles would've been much much better. In the future I will just build variety of ships that focus on all three weapon types regardless of tiers.



Thanks for taking the time to respond thuvian.
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11 years ago
Jan 1, 2014, 8:08:59 PM
  • I tried to load as both players, it kept trying to connect to the server and failing.
  • Your player race image being the sophons is the only thing I could see.
  • If the dreadnaught had armor (since it had 6000k, it at least had 1?), it would increase the amount it heals and the defense. I don't believe that bonus is taken into account by the power rating.
  • Level bonuses also affect things.
  • Fleet wide module buffs can change things, more healing, more defense, etc.
  • Not sure why you assuming only 4 ships lost per round per phase. You were being shot at by 4 dreadnaughts & 3 cruisers, so that's a max of 7 per round per phase.
  • The combat mechanics were designed following ye olde rock - paper - scissors design. You can't stop the rock defense with extra scissors attack (you can, you just need A LOT of scissors).
  • I consistently argue that (virtually) the only targeting style you should use is spread fire. Your battle is a good example. Your ships start shooting the lead ship, but he is the one that is best suited to blocking your attacks (98.6% immune). If you had used spread fire, if his other ships were weaker to Kinetics, you might even have killed some of them. You had a ton of firepower, but it was all wasted. Even if you don't kill anything with spread fire, you wouldn't have killed anything with nosebreaker either. There are some cases where you damage things, but not kill them with spread fire, where you would get some kills with nosebreaker. However, I also advocate having multiple cheap glass cannon fleets, which means that the second fleet can usually manage to clean up the survivors.
  • Build the +strategic resource planet exploitation for much hilarity.
  • I've even occasionally resorted to building level 1 weapon ships when necessary. I don't learn my pilots names, it saves on the paperwork.

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11 years ago
Jan 1, 2014, 9:25:55 PM
If the dreadnaught had armor (since it had 6000k, it at least had 1?), it would increase the amount it heals and the defense. I don't believe that bonus is taken into account by the power rating.




It doesn't have Armor, nor does it have a repair module.





Level bonuses also affect things.




I know. smiley: smile The vaulter also has a level 24 Admiral for even more affects. Again these are just pedantic details to the equation. The real issue here is 98%+ kinetic negation. The rest is just finer points to a foregone conclusion.



Not sure why you assuming only 4 ships lost per round per phase. You were being shot at by 4 dreadnaughts & 3 cruisers, so that's a max of 7 per round per phase.




I'm assuming 3, because playing the battle over and over again trying different things seems to be about 2.X per combat round so I was just rounding up. It's hard to do an accurate count because of the way they changed the interface showing you only like 5 or 6 ships at a time. I wish I at least had the option of showing my entire fleet so I can observe losses and damage of ships better.



The combat mechanics were designed following ye olde rock - paper - scissors design. You can't stop the rock defense with extra scissors attack (you can, you just need A LOT of scissors).




As I said I get their intent. Doesn't change the fact that 230 weapon modules are effectively being negated by 17 defense modules. Or to put it another way 9300 Kinetic Offense < 714 Kinetic Defense. I don't want it to be a game where you can just build one type of ship, like say Kinetic Destroyers and make them effective in any situation. But at the same time I don't want it to be the type of game where a very strong offense is mitigated by substantially less defense value. In any case, the situation is perfectly addressable in that I do things better, no doubt. The fault here is mine, but I would say that this are could use some tweaking too. As you said, it makes no sense to use nose breaker or guillotine over spread fire, which supports my point that there needs to be some more tweaking here. Whether it is the formula that get's tweaked or simply adding defense / offense modifiers based on formations, cards and targeting strategies.



I'll leave it to the Devs to figure it out. But I think we can both agree there needs to be a change and yes I agree with you that we need to keep the rock/paper/scissor model intact, but within reason. 17 > 230 is not in reason without extraordinary luck.



I consistently argue that (virtually) the only targeting style you should use is spread fire. Your battle is a good example. Your ships start shooting the lead ship, but he is the one that is best suited to blocking your attacks (98.6% immune). If you had used spread fire, if his other ships were weaker to Kinetics, you might even have killed some of them.




If I do spread fire I will destroy the 3 cruisers in phase 1 and have a low chance of forcing a draw with that fleet.



Build the +strategic resource planet exploitation for much hilarity.




All the strategic resources discovered already have a monopoly in my game by my empire.
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11 years ago
Jan 2, 2014, 2:08:13 AM
.... Again these are just pedantic details to the equation. The real issue here is 98%+ kinetic negation. The rest is just finer points to a foregone conclusion.




Yep. I was trying to clarify a few points for people that find this thread in the future and didn't have the background knowledge about things.



I'm assuming 3, because playing the battle over and over again trying different things seems to be about 2.X per combat round so I was just rounding up. It's hard to do an accurate count because of the way they changed the interface showing you only like 5 or 6 ships at a time. I wish I at least had the option of showing my entire fleet so I can observe losses and damage of ships better.




That makes sense. Although you weren't guessing you were using pre-existing knowledge, so that's better than guessing. smiley: biggrin



Or to put it another way 9300 Kinetic Offense < 714 Kinetic Defense.


The power ratings are a bit dodgy and I don't trust them very much. How they are calculated is not close enough to actual power rating for my taste.



All the strategic resources discovered already have a monopoly in my game by my empire.


The FID Boosting Racial ability that depends on strategic resources benefits from it. You can get some hilarious empire wide bonuses from it.
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