Has anyone managed to test yet if this applies before or after +% Production bonuses?



This won't have as much effect on Harmony itself early game (although late game with the FIS Luxury Resources + Efficient Stock it will), but a custom faction with Growth Plan/Scientist would get an extra 1/2/3 Food/Science from this bonus.

Zinsho wrote:
Has anyone managed to test yet if this applies before or after +% Production bonuses?



This won't have as much effect on Harmony itself early game (although late game with the FIS Luxury Resources + Efficient Stock it will), but a custom faction with Growth Plan/Scientist would get an extra 1/2/3 Food/Science from this bonus.

I kept forgetting to check this until now. In my latest test build I went with Growth Plan 3 (+30% :food. When I built a ship I checked the food output before launching it and again after launching it. I discovered that yes the FIS bonus from the ships is before the % boosters. So every ship I have in orbit with Growth plan adds 2.6 food, 2 from the resonant bonus and .6 from growth plan. Therefore if you had a build with Growth Plan 3 and Scientists 3, each ship would add 2.6 food and 2.6 science. If you also have big fleets, that's a possible 20.8 food and science bonus.



Edit: Further testing shows the FIS bonus from these ships is also boosted by the tax slider.



For the Harmony the way the slider works is this. Add all the positives, except the "From Tax Rate" then subtract the Disharmony penalty. Take that number and multiply by the slider's setting and that's how much more/less food/science you generate. With food, you then subtract the "From Food Consumption" number.



Example: Using the numbers from my home-world in my current game.

+30 Food from resonant vessels

+15 from system

+14.3 from Faction Trait

+5.3 From efficient Stock

+3 From Planets

-13 From Disharmony

-16 From Food Consumption



At 50% on slider, ie, balanced between food and science. Just add those numbers up for a food surplus of 38.6. In game it reports 38.3 (the game loses .3 somewhere).

At 25% on the slider for +50% food and -50% science. We add all those numbers except the from consumption them multiply by 1.5 and get 81.9 then subtract consumption for a surplus of 65.9. In game it's reporting 65.5 (losing .4 somewhere)

At 75% on the slider -50% food and +50% science. We add all those numbers except the from consumption them multiply by 0.5 and get 27.3 then subtract consumption for 11.3 surplus. In game it's reporting 11.2 surplus.



So that means the 30 food and science I'm currently getting from 15 resonant vessels, thanks to my current CP cap of 15, I can increase that boost to 60 for one or the other by moving the slider to 0 or 100, but doing some cuts the bonus from the other.



In my current game I have Growth Plan 3 and Scientists 3. From these numbers it means the bonus/penalty from traits is before the slider's multiplier. So if you take Space Cadets 3 for -30% then run the slider at 25 % for = 50% science, you're actually losing less than 80% you might think you're losing. So if you had 100 science and subtract the 30% from Space cadets for 70 science then subtract 50% from the slider you're at 35 science. That also means when the slider is at 75% for +50% science you end up with 100 *.7 *1.5 = 70 * 1.5 = 105. So the trait is now actually costing you 45% instead of 30%.



So traits that add a percentage of food or science gain more on the positive side, but lose more on the negative side. Therefore unless you plan to set the tax slider at 50% and level it there, you're probably better off never using growth plan, black thumbs, scientists or space cadets. Instead go with Kitchen Chemists for more science and cloning for more food. Of course if you plan to keep the slider above 50% the whole game, then Black Thumbs with Scientists would give the most benefit with the least loss. If you plan to keep the slider below 50% then Space Cadets + Growth plan would likewise have the most benefit for the least loss.

Adventurer_Blitz wrote:
personally, i think that your harmony build has major problems. you will have major science problems and if someone rushes you early and has better ships, they will be able to wipe out your orbiting ships. and then how are you going to maintain advantages over the other factions?

Imagine somone rushing a harmony Players FIS Ships with Knowlege gathering and Dust Recyclers early game.

thuvian wrote:
but I don't like the direction you are going with your ship design. With your emphasis on Support Modules, I can see how it works.

24 Points for Militarists 3 for -30% cost to everything (including defense modules and special modules) versus 44 points for -50% cost to weapon modules and support modules. Seems to me you could save 20 points and just take militarists. This is much bigger for harmony since they have a perfect light carrier hull and a heavy defense cruiser hull. In my opinion anyway.

personally, i think that your harmony build has major problems. you will have major science problems and if someone rushes you early and has better ships, they will be able to wipe out your orbiting ships. and then how are you going to maintain advantages over the other factions?

That was very interesting. I'm pretty sure Resonating Hulls are complete and utter cheese. Here is my take on this:





Everything should be fairly straightforward, high industry builds with cheap buildings and cheaper ships. I threw Knowledge Gathering in there because it fit. I'm not convinced N-way Fusion or Xenobotany is worth 4 points.



I like how you boosted CP and focused on exploiting the early game advantage of Resonating Hulls, but I don't like the direction you are going with your ship design. With your emphasis on Support Modules, I can see how it works. But I'm a solid supporter of more guns and more guns. I think you are getting away with the ship designs you are using because the AI's ship designs are horrible. (I keep repeating this like a broken record) You should try using Ail's Ship Design Mod. Currently, the AI designs inefficient, expensive, and undergunned ships and uses bad targeting plans. This encourages an environment of defensive ships that don't hold up against more intelligent opponents. Consider what would happen if you were matched against an AI that used all weapon Glass Cannon Destroyers. Your listed cruiser design has around 14000 EHP against all weapon types. A 10LRK2 GCD does around 6000 damage a combat but costs much less and you are only killing ~1.5 per battle.

• Why Core Mining so early in the build? You won't benefit from it until you have several exploitations and that's going to take time. It also depends on the science flow. I don't have any idea how science develops with this design.
• Make Science, Not War is pretty expensive. Your major benefit is cheaper colony modules (power, armor, etc come later). I think the points could be better used elsewhere and just accept the expense of colony modules.
• Given the emphasis on Support Modules, wasted space makes sense. It effectively translates to ~10% less damage on a 50% weight in weapons ship. However, with a more offensive approach, it doesn't work out.
• In the end, I'm not convinced that a passive approach to combat will work out in the long run. Although, if it does, your build makes a lot of sense.
  
  

Since most of the luxuries add dust or approval and we want to limit the amount of dust that's killing our FIS until we can purify the systems, Asceticism has way more benefit than the slight loss of science, food ship exp and ship movement it adds.



Here's a build I've been playing to take major advantage of the FIS bonus.

Asceticism -7

Big Fleets 2 +25

Builders 3 +24

Deep Roots 2 -2

Efficient Stock +25

Eternal War -10

Feeble Warriors -5

Make Science, Not War 2 +24

Masters of Destruction 2 +20

N-way Fusion Plants +4

Offense First 3 -7

Space Cadets 3 -15

Spray 'n Pray 3 -15

Tolerant 2 +30

Unlucky Colonists -10

Wasted space 2 -16

Total 65/65



Yes, I have no cloning and our home world starts at -25% FIS. The reason I took N-Way over Xenobotany, is because we can complete this building to significantly boost production quickly so we can start cranking out the resonant ships.



On turn 1 I queue up techs in this order. Xenobotany, Core Mining (exploit boost & hyperium), Soil Xenobiology (food), Isolation Shields (science), Compact Fusion Reactors, Applied Casimir Effect, Then the first 3 CP increases.



The reason for Masters of Destruction and Make Science , Not War instead of Militarist, is the ships are a lot cheaper. Even with adding the first engine to the colony ship it still only costs 145 production.



My resonant ships are the Cutter hull with just long range kinetics. With Wasted Space 2 I can fit 10 of them on the ship. This gives a production cost of 60 industry per ship. I tried going with just 1 LRK for a production cost of 42 per ship, but pirates and aggressive AI would wipe that fleet out quickly.



In my current game with this build, on turn 88 I just finished the tech to start purifying my systems. I didn't beeline to it. I have unlocked Titanium, Hyperium, Anti-matter and Hexiferium and all luxuries. I have scanned my moons, added the +food from moons improvement. I've unlocked terraforming to arctic, lava and gas giants and have converted all my planets, except the tier 1's, to methane. I have C3 systems and all but the last 2 hulls, so my CP is now at 17 so +34 FIS bonus on each system.



Until I have my initial 8 CP fleets finished for my first 2 systems I was converting industry to science after every build and running at 5% science to grow the first two systems quickly. Once the first resonant fleets were finished, I move the slider to as much science as I could get without going to negative food, around 60-65% iirc. I've kept it between 60 and 80% since and use the industry to food exploit in systems that needed to grow.



This all has me at 2nd in score, 1st in FIDS, 2nd in science and 3rd in military power on endless difficulty. 2 EU and a Sheredyn have declared war on me. Part of that military power is from a few fleets of mostly the 2 CP Simic hull (-50% defense tonnage) that has 1 tier 2 LRK, 1 tier 1 beam and 1 tier 1 missile, 7 tier 2 deflector, 10 tier 1 shields, 10 tier 1 flak, 1 tier 1 armor, and intelligent tools. I unlocked the tier 2 beam and shields on the way to the purify tech, but forgot to upgrade the design.



Edit: Before anyone says Militarist will make the resonant fleets cheaper, I know. The same build of 10 LRK and nothing else is 54 industry with Militarist instead of 60 with Masters of Destruction. However, the MoD + MS,NW combo is for the cheaper colony ships and for the regular fleets to have cheaper siege, repair, etc. With Militarist the default colony ship is 175. With MS,NW it's about 147, or 175 with the first engine added.



However, for those who prefer Militarist, dropping MoD and MS,NW allows you to add Kitchen Chemists for +1 science per pop before any of the multipliers from the tax slider and later science improvements.



The reasons for wasted space is both to gain an additional 16 points to spend elsewhere and to make power/engines/armor/repair modules weigh less.

re:anomalacaris

My vote is to keep Efficient Stock and take Unlucky Colonist.



Do you know exactly which bonuses are reduced with aestheticism? The -40% luxury bonus is a bit vague. Per planet bonus, monopoly bonus, both? I admit, I've never used the trait though.

Thanks for the clarification! It is not as strong as I imagined, but it sure as hell gives Harmony as strong, if not stronger, early game economy. Still lacking flexibility, but raw muscle might be more than good enough.



I will try following build:

+ militarist or master of illusion max (Have to test which one more favorable, I think militarist) : 24

+ tolerance + cloning 1 (Still powerful to take advantage of no problem on class IV/class V) : 30+5

+ mineral rich (For maximum early game expansion speed. However this is hugely expensive since I usually take unlucky colonist) : 5

+ builders (as much as I can take): 24

+ tundra: 4



taking builders and no other tech since you can just build couple empty hulls when you run out of buildings



- spray: -15

- feeble: -5

- always war: -10

- deep roots: -2



that is 60.

Pain to give up efficient stock, which gives insanely good late game and synergize well. Maybe should swap mineral rich for unlucky colonist (+15 net) and throw in ascetism (-7, dont really hurt as much and efficient stock compensates)



dying to try!

Just curious, can't get on game now.

If so, that seem really powerful. +2 for a couple tens of , oh hell yeah.

I understand the confusion in the wording. But it seems to me the intent is +2 FIS per ship, capped at max fleet CP x2. So 2 levels of Anarchists = 6 FIS per system, regular = 10, Big Fleets = 14. Not including tech, obviously as fleet cap increases so does the FIS for the system for each ship.



--EDIT: Ugh, even I did itm making it confusing and unclear. I blame work! Anyway what I meant to say is FIS = 2x System CP capped at Max Fleet CP. But as others have said it is confusing and perhaps they mean it the other way. I don't think that is the case though.

For those wondering what's going on in this thread, there is a new patch.



/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/10966-release-notes



Can't wait to try the Harmony with this change. I almost think this might be over powered, as my ideas for changes were much smaller like the home system starting purified would've probably helped a lot with the early game harmony dust disadvantage. Then again this makes them more flexible on traits allowing people to drop some deemed necessary, as well as bad traits too.

Monthar wrote:
According to the release notes.





I just tested this and it's only 1x CP max not 2x. With a starting cap of 5 CP I gained the +2 FIS per ship for the first 5 ships. When I built a 6th ship and launched it to orbit (it doesn't' count if they're in the hanger), the FIS didn't increase.



By the wording of the release notes it should have been for up to 2 max CP fleets. However, I suspect the "up to 2x CP max" really meant the FIS caps at 2x the CP max not the number of ships that boost the FIS. So with a 5 CP that means max FIS = 2x5 = 10 FIS. In other words the release notes are poorly worded. If they actually meant 2x CP worth of ships so with a CP of 5 that's 10 ships each adding +2 FIS for +20 FIS and it's bugged to only be the 1x CP max.

i dont thinks its buged i just think the description is not absolute clear.

According to the release notes.

Implemented the new Harmony Resonance bonus: + 2 FIS / ORBITING SHIP UP TO 2x CP MAX

I just tested this and it's only 1x CP max not 2x. With a starting cap of 5 CP I gained the +2 FIS per ship for the first 5 ships. When I built a 6th ship and launched it to orbit (it doesn't' count if they're in the hanger), the FIS didn't increase.



By the wording of the release notes it should have been for up to 2 max CP fleets. However, I suspect the "up to 2x CP max" really meant the FIS caps at 2x the CP max not the number of ships that boost the FIS. So with a 5 CP that means max FIS = 2x5 = 10 FIS. In other words the release notes are poorly worded. If they actually meant 2x CP worth of ships so with a CP of 5 that's 10 ships each adding +2 FIS for +20 FIS and it's bugged to only be the 1x CP max.

Nm I just tested it, yes it's 10.

just btw: 10 not 20 with a Start of 5 CP.









Also That was highly needed!



i will spend alot of time to test the hell out of it. If it is enough to take the Harmony on a par with the other races and what strategies it is offering.

That really opens up a lot of possibilities. Tundra+Mineral rich homeworld, and bam, +20! (beginning 5 CP)

Tramps early game heros, and you can have it everywhere!

We might be looking at balancing issues soon.

It works for the Automatons with their unique system improvement so I don't see why it wouldn't work for the Harmony.